Would You Buy This 2011 Gold Buffalo? (revealed)

[WoodenJefferson]

Suppose you were handed this gold buffalo and the seller claims they need some fast cash and will sell it to you for $1,000 cash on the barrel head, would you buy?

The buffalo is encapsulated in a NGC holder

The coin strike looks right, the gold looks right and so does the heft of gold.

Knowing you can probably make a quick $250 by laying out a grand, will you still buy.

[MarkFeld]

Additional information needed regarding seller, venue and buyer protection, if applicable. In the absence of that, no.

[TomB]

No.

[numisport]

Is coin number legible ? Hasn't there been some involved in recent thefts ?

[WoodenJefferson]

1 hour ago, numisport said:

Is coin number legible ? Hasn't there been some involved in recent thefts ?

Yes, the cert # is legible on the slab and checks with the data base.

[WoodenJefferson]

2 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

Additional information needed regarding seller, venue and buyer protection, if applicable. In the absence of that, no.

You do not know the seller, the venue is random, let's say outside a pawn shop and there is no buyer protection, only your wits.

[WoodenJefferson]

1 hour ago, TomB said:

No.

Why not so quick?

[MarkFeld]

7 minutes ago, WoodenJefferson said:

You do not know the seller, the venue is random, let's say outside a pawn shop and there is no buyer protection, only your wits.

 

7 minutes ago, WoodenJefferson said:

You do not know the seller, the venue is random, let's say outside a pawn shop and there is no buyer protection, only your wits.

Then no.

[johnny94341]

no i would not buy it.

[coinman1794]

If you are standing outside a pawn shop; wherein this fast cash-needing seller could get at least full melt for his coin; his excuse for under-selling doesn't hold up in the first place. In fact, he could take it almost anywhere and get more. Pass.

[WoodenJefferson]

17 minutes ago, coinman1794 said:

If you are standing outside a pawn shop; wherein this fast cash-needing seller could get at least full melt for his coin; his excuse for under-selling doesn't hold up in the first place. In fact, he could take it almost anywhere and get more. Pass.

This maybe true, but maybe there was complications at the pawn shop, I only ask if your willing to buy the gold buffalo out right for $1,000

[PaulS.]

That cert number series has been counterfeited. I'd bet it's a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit holder. It probably won't match the photos in our database. Plus it's a huge red flag to be selling under melt. Hard pass.

[WoodenJefferson]

19 minutes ago, PaulS. said:

That cert number series has been counterfeited. I'd bet it's a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit holder. It probably won't match the photos in our database. Plus it's a huge red flag to be selling under melt. Hard pass.

BINGO! It's a tungsten slug layered in gold.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Proof-2011-American-Buffalo-one-troy-Oz-tungsten-coin-plated-1-5-grams-999-fine-gold/32792653866.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000015.3.miZylu&s=p

[PaulS.]

1 hour ago, WoodenJefferson said:

BINGO! It's a tungsten slug layered in gold.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Proof-2011-American-Buffalo-one-troy-Oz-tungsten-coin-plated-1-5-grams-999-fine-gold/32792653866.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000015.3.miZylu&s=p

Thanks for pointing this one out, I will report it.

[TomB]

Obviously, the answer has been posted already, but I meant it when I wrote "No" because there would be no legitimate reason to be able to buy that coin for 80% of melt.

[WoodenJefferson]

9 hours ago, TomB said:

Obviously, the answer has been posted already, but I meant it when I wrote "No" because there would be no legitimate reason to be able to buy that coin for 80% of melt.

You still said no, so you were wise to pass on this faux gold buffalo.

[thebeav]

My initial thought, if offered an ounce hundreds below melt, outside of a pawn shop, would be "stolen goods". I don't think I would buy anything from the public while outside of a pawn shop. I wouldn't buy from the public outside of someones business to begin with, but especially in this case. You have to know that there is a reason that the shop didn't buy this. Perhaps the item is on a 'hot-sheet' for example.

Paul

[WoodenJefferson]

Metal	Density (g/cm3)
Iridium	22.65
Osmium	22.61
Platinum	21.09
Rhenium	21.02
Neptunium	20.45
Plutonium	19.82
Gold	19.30
Tungsten	19.25 Tungsten weighs just slightly less than gold, to slight to detect with ordinary scales.

[physics-fan3.14]

Obviously, the scenario you described instantly raised red flags to any experienced person. However, just looking at it, that coin and slab look good to me. If I (or someone else) were to encounter this "in the wild" without the fishy scenario, are there any key indicators to look for? Anything immediately obvious that point to this being fake? 

[WoodenJefferson]

3 hours ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Obviously, the scenario you described instantly raised red flags to any experienced person. However, just looking at it, that coin and slab look good to me. If I (or someone else) were to encounter this "in the wild" without the fishy scenario, are there any key indicators to look for? Anything immediately obvious that point to this being fake? 

The only thing I can think of or see is the label maybe off. The boarder/type face but a novice will probably not srr into that and take it as genuine. Heck even a dealer who is not familiar with different NGC slabs might be spoofed. They can put a real $50 that's already graded by NGC onto a scale for comparison and the fake coin would weigh the same +- one or two grams which is convincing. It would take a keen eye or a gut feeling to avoid detection.

[physics-fan3.14]

5 minutes ago, WoodenJefferson said:

The only thing I can think of or see is the label maybe off. The boarder/type face but a novice will probably not srr into that and take it as genuine. Heck even a dealer who is not familiar with different NGC slabs might be spoofed. They can put a real $50 that's already graded by NGC onto a scale for comparison and the fake coin would weigh the same +- one or two grams which is convincing. It would take a keen eye or a gut feeling to avoid detection.

I always look at the type face first when considering fake slabs - it's one of the hardest things to get right, and is often one of the first keys that something is off. I didn't immediately pick up on anything wrong with this one (there may be some super-subtle differences, but it is mostly correct). 

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Even though we know the answer now, let's pretend we don't.

This is a puzzle to solve, because WoodenJefferson has not given enough info to work with, and the problem has to be bounded to allow for a manageable solution.

Two digits are obscured, the 4th and 5th place digits.  (If actually offered the coin you would see those digits and you could look the coin up immediately.)  But we have to solve this puzzle without knowing these digits.  There are 99 possible NGC Certs that could be checked to solve this WoodenJefferson puzzle, but there is a clue present, and the problem to solve became just ten possible numbers to look up.  (I used that clue and found the coin on NGC's Coin Verify.)

NGC actually graded a Buffalo coin for this number, and the one they show on their website is the real one for you to compare the one you're being offered outside the pawn shop. (of all places)

(Note: On NGC's Coin Verification for this number coin they currently show:  POSSIBLE COUNTERFEIT HOLDER.  I don't know if this "buyer beware alert" is after the fact of NGC being alerted to multiple coins now having this number, that their original coin is real, but  counterfeits have shown up using this NGC number, and so they are alerting the public.  It would be nice if NGC would weigh in exactly on this, explain what the Coin Verification warning actually attests, but it seems they are saying the one they graded is real, but other "fakes" have flooded the market.)

So, right here, upon look up, I would pass.

 

But let's say you are being offered this coin before "possible counterfeit holder" was forewarned by NGC.

You go to their Coin Verification and the image is very clear there.

The coin on their Coin Verification is immaculate and the coin WoodenJefferson is showing is not.  But more than this, if you had the slab in hand (of the counterfeit), the slab label and actual holder, themselves, have to match up perfectly.

• Both labels look identical, so nothing there.
• But every little edge bump has to match up perfectly, too.
  • These are little "sonic melt bumps"
  • They vary from holder to holder (a good thing)
  • Sometimes they come in pairs, sometimes just singularly
  • They have to be in the same locations

Essentially, everything has to match up.  If things in their entirety don't match up, then you pass on the coin.

On the real NGC Verified coin, on the bottom edge, there is a left "double" and also a right "single."

WoodenJefferson's pic is not as clear as we would like, and sonic edge bumps cannot be seen, but if you had the slab in hand you would know exactly where there should be the bumps.

WoodenJefferson's coin isn't as "cameo" as the NGC pic, and the holder bumps don't match up from what can be seen.

Hard Pass!

[PaulS.]

On 3/5/2017 at 3:48 PM, physics-fan3.14 said:

I always look at the type face first when considering fake slabs - it's one of the hardest things to get right, and is often one of the first keys that something is off. I didn't immediately pick up on anything wrong with this one (there may be some super-subtle differences, but it is mostly correct). 

They stole a photo of a real coin in a real NGC holder. The fakes look much, much worse. 

 

-Paul

[WoodenJefferson]

2 hours ago, PaulS. said:

They stole a photo of a real coin in a real NGC holder. The fakes look much, much worse. 

 

-Paul

Ahhhh...so what you receive for that super discounted price is a piece of _____ (fill in the blank) scam-a-lama-ding-dong

[physics-fan3.14]

4 hours ago, PaulS. said:

They stole a photo of a real coin in a real NGC holder. The fakes look much, much worse. 

 

-Paul

Oh, that makes a lot more sense. 

[PaulS.]

Here's an example of one of their poor quality fakes. As you can see, it's missing a lot of detail. 

 

-Paul

 

[WoodenJefferson]

That is really, really bad. Thank you for posting this example.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

On 3/1/2017 at 11:36 AM, WoodenJefferson said:

Suppose you were handed this gold buffalo and the seller claims they need some fast cash and will sell it to you for $1,000 cash on the barrel head, would you buy?

The buffalo is encapsulated in a NGC holder

The coin strike looks right, the gold looks right and so does the heft of gold.

Knowing you can probably make a quick $250 by laying out a grand, will you still buy.

 

 

 

I don't know, looks the same to me.  What's all the fuss about?  Which one is the real one?