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I feel like NGC has abandoned me
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31 posts in this topic

Unless you actually care about the "points", you can display all your coins in a custom set, including your raw ones. The trick for displaying raw coins is to mark them as "want", instead of "own" -- you can still upload photos and add your notes.

 

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that, but as I mentioned, there is no way to compete using this method. While I couldn't care less about how many points since we're all playing under the same rules, I couldn't have picked up the award for my half eagle set last year this way, nor can I ever again if I can't list my PCGS coins, which are usually half or more of any given set. (my lib nick set is 90% PCGS)

 

I appreciate the insight but USA Coin Book is impartial so maybe it will grow more quickly if I'm correct in assuming others will leave NGC for the same reasons. Being a long time business owner I was shocked that they took a chance with the new policy. We'll see how it plays out I guess, but if I was an owner or my income was based on profits, I think I would have thought it through a little better.

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You want competition? Try winning a custom set award. What is the competition like at USA Coin Book?

 

No, I want competition in standard sets- anyone with deep pockets can set up a custom set to make it near impossible to compete. While I know I will never have the top set in ANY of my chosen series, I *can* get in the top ten and that is good enough for me. The point is, I come here because I can enjoy all the other sets I am competing against and use them as a reference for how to build mine. I also like the fact that the world's most serious collectors display here and on PCGS's site, and that is why I ended up here- PCGS got the thumbs down for excluding NGC coins, and NGC got the thumbs up for including theirs. That was a smart move in my humble opinion and likely added to their membership. The new policy takes away the only incentive I had to use this site. But to answer your other question- if I had to choose between posting ALL of my coins together on an independent site or only PCGS or NGC coins on their respective sites, I think I could forego the half-way competition and settle for no competition at all- afterall, in the end the hobby is about the joy of collecting first and all else is just peripheral.

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If I can't display EVERY coin in my set, what incentive do I have to buy slabbed coins for internet display?

 

There are many reasons to buy slabbed coins, not just for display. And, you can display your coins in many fashions. A lot of people are doing websites (free to low cost hosting available) including some really neat album set ups.

 

While I loved the collector community here and have enjoyed reading everyone's journals and posts, without the registry angle I can't see myself using the site much any more.

 

Take away the registry, how is this different than cointalk or CU? It still is full of interesting stuff you enjoy. This comment sounds like the old 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'.

 

 

Further, I will now forever be inclined to buy PCGS coins instead, not just for the added prestige of the PCGS brand

 

PCGS is great. NCG is great. Both have great coins. There is no need to buy only one type of slab. Shoot, some of my coins are in 'gasp' ANACS and ICG slabs. Sure I cross a few things over --- the ANACS seem to get a few upgrades here and there, or I want some variety noted that isn't. But it's the coin, not the plastic. PCGS is very good at telling people they are the Mercedes, so much so it becomes a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. Until it doesn't.

 

but also because I feel that NGC has lost all sense of loyalty to collectors, the very life blood of your business. Whatever the extra cost, was it really worth losing life long customers? (I started collecting NGC graded coins in 1987!)
.

 

Now, this sounds like you are offended because NGC is acting like PCGS in terms of the registry exclusivity. Is it really WORSE for NGC to start being exclusive vs. PCGS that always was? If there are two people and if A does something you don't like, you decide to hang out with B. But, then B does the same thing. Does that suddenly make A your friend instead of B, or will you treat them equally now?

 

Ali, you've been very good to us,

 

Yes, Ali rocks and the customer service is fabulous here. Registry additions and help are fantastic. The only reason I have so many sets is because Ali/etc (I'm sure she does not work in a vacuum) listen and are very responsive.

 

why would anyone want to display only half of their set?

 

Do look into the custom sets. You can make one however you want and IIRC you can still put your PCGS coins in there. My 'best' set is something that does not exist as a regular registry set and I created the custom set. Any coin can be added as a 'want' including descriptions AND PICTURES. It doesn't restrict anything to a 'deep pocket' type of deal.

 

The awards for those are NOT points based, but based on information, presentation and 'just plain awesome' (I made up that last one, I don't think it's official). There is no 'highest points' category. I'd be way more impressed if I won a custom set award vs. one for a high points set.

 

Or, set up a website, or one of those cool albums. Maybe they aren't competitive, but you can still display your entire set (which is what you did note as being important).

 

Now I realize you are venting, and perhaps I'm a little removed from it all as I collect mostly world coins so I hope I'm not sounding unduly harsh. Yep, it sucks to have the registry changed. At least coins are not being removed that are already in the sets. But, you do have options. I just think you are judging NGC more harshly than PCGS for similar behaviors.

Edited by dena
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I read your reply before it was edited by NGC and it wasn't appreciated. To be clear- PCGS did not allow the competition's coins in their registry for years and then pull the rug out from under me- NGC did. If PCGS did, they would be the ones I was appealing to. Your suggestions were already suggested and rejected and I don't appreciate being psychoanalyzed and belittled in public by you sir. Your rather insulting comments shouldn't have been edited by NGC, the whole post should have been removed and you should have lost your privileges for a period in my humble opinion, but one thing is for sure- I know what I want and I don't want anything that you suggested, I want it the way it was because it is the only way to display my whole set and compte as usual, period. It is only a fun hobby if you can do it your own way. Sure, i can still do whatever I want, but I can't do what I *wanted* to do any longer and that is the reason for my post- to possibly influence NGC to put it back the way it was. My complaint was and is valid and my reasoning was sound. In my humble opinion, NGC has made a critical mistake. Maybe I'll be proven wrong and that's fine, but PCGS did not do this to me, NGC did. I hope this doesn't get edited too because it needs to be said- I have been jerked around and actually bullied on NGC's forums since the day I signed up and it's time to put it to rest...

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by the way- who ever said anything about points? Why do people assume things like this? You don't even know me, never discussed anything with me and have no clue what is in my mind. What do points have to do with displaying my whole set vs only the NGC slabbed portion of it? No sir, I don't care about the points as long as we all go by the same rules. What I don't like is the rules changing in the middle of the game- I doubt anyone likes that, and as a long time business owner who dealt face to face with the public on a daily basis I would never have pulled the rug out from under so many loyal customers.

 

I just wanted to continue posting my entire sets because only showing half of your set is worthlessly exclusive to a true set collector.....

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It is only a fun hobby if you can do it your own way.

 

Unless one is collecting modern coins especially bullion as they aren't really coins. Isn't that what you've posted on numerous occasions?

 

is this for real?A little off topic but it's my post so I'll bite. I've collected for fifty one years and have never run into so many unhappy collectors. And why? Because someone disagreed with you. This country needs some serious help lately. Wow. 'Coins' were objects made specifically for the efficient transfer of goods. To be a 'coin', the object had to be made specifically for circulating in public or it wasn't worth making. A bullion piece, however, is stuck for hoarding, using or distributing the bullion metal it is made out of. It is never intended to circulate, so it cannot be a 'coin'. Since they don't 'circulate', they mostly stay in pristine condition. How can one be worth more than another if they are all perfect or nearly so? If there is no attrition through circulation, how can one or another become rare like a real coin? I don't look down on those who collect them, they are obviously interesting and worthy. My argument in the debate was never to put another collector down for his collecting choices- it was that modern bullion pieces aren't coins, they are just bullion made by the tens of thousands or millions in perfect condition, one indistinguisable from the next, and they are worth no more that any Franklin mint pieces was ever worth no matter how limited the 'edition'. I'm sorry you're feelings are hurt because some of us old timers call it what it is and disagree with you on rarity and value. It is what it is. Try to get the chip off your shoulder and enjoy the hobby- to each his own.

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Its over for me, I do not intend to CROSS OVER my PCGS coins. 

Enjoyed putting this set together for almost 20 years and this decision by NGC is totally about money in my opinion. It is a disservice to the hobby.

Best Jefferson complete set, second will soon be first!

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On 1/22/2017 at 0:01 PM, LuckyOne said:

I was all ready to set up with PCGS about five years ago when I realized that I couldn't post my NGC coins there, so as disappointed as I was, I walked away from the idea of a registry set. Later when I found out that NGC allowed PCGS coins it was a perfect fit for my collection so I displayed my sets proudly here. I am sorry to say now however that I feel like NGC has abandoned me.

 

If I can't display EVERY coin in my set, what incentive do I have to buy slabbed coins for internet display? I could put the whole set on USA Coin Book but there is no competition, awards or much collector support at this time, but it would be better than either PCGS or NGC since you can list ALL of your coins whether they be raw, slabbed, damaged or whatever the case might be.

 

While I loved the collector community here and have enjoyed reading everyone's journals and posts, without the registry angle I can't see myself using the site much any more. Further, I will now forever be inclined to buy PCGS coins instead, not just for the added prestige of the PCGS brand, but also because I feel that NGC has lost all sense of loyalty to collectors, the very life blood of your business. Whatever the extra cost, was it really worth losing life long customers? (I started collecting NGC graded coins in 1987!)

 

Ali, you've been very good to us, no personal complaints at all there. Maybe if you forward this to the people responsible for the decision to eliminate PCGS coins in your registry they'll see it from a loss of profit angle and see fit to reinstate the old policy. If not, I am fairly certain other serious collectors will see it the same way and stop wasting their time here too, afterall, why would anyone want to display only half of their set?

 

Not to seem ungracious, many thanks to NGC for the award last year, it was appreciated and will be cherished for the rest of my life. Would have liked the chance to keep trying for another over the coming years. I hope we can change a few minds. Thanks for your ear.

Lucky One, thanks for the feedback.

We will forward your comments to the appropriate people. Please let us know when we may assist in the future. You may reach us at registry@ngccoin.com.

Edited by Ali E. S.
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I will soon be selling this #1 complete Jeffreson nickel set set on ebay coin by coin.

Anyone interested in the complete set or any coin please let me know before I start.

 

Previous post:

Its over for me, I do not intend to CROSS OVER my PCGS coins. 

Best Jefferson complete set, second will soon be first!

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6 hours ago, Nickelhead said:

I will soon be selling this #1 complete Jeffreson nickel set set on ebay coin by coin.

Anyone interested in the complete set or any coin please let me know before I start.

 

Previous post:

Its over for me, I do not intend to CROSS OVER my PCGS coins. 

Best Jefferson complete set, second will soon be first!

You'll probably have more luck posting this in the Marketplace forum than you will by reviving threads that have been dead for 22 months.

Sorry to see you go. I hope you're not selling it just because of this change to the registry because that would be a shame.

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how ridiculous. NGC does the same thing PCGS has always done by excluding a competitors coins and your mad at NGC and decide to just go with PCGS? Lets say Mcdonalds says you can't bring Burger King food into their store, you don't get mad. Burger King allows you to bring a competitors food into their restraurant and then a few years laters doesnt allow it, you get mad at them......sure ok!

Edited by Mk123
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Lucky One, AGREE 100%.

NGC had (still has) other options they ignored.  They went with the one that was the most unfair and made the least amount of sense.

IF they want to "trap" collectors into buying only NGC coins, or have them cross there PCGS coins to NGC, they failed in my case. The other option is much better - walk away.

IF they want to be fair they need to allow all PCGS or no PCGS coins. Not some. Total BS.

IF they want to highlight NGC coins while not everyone off, they could have changed their awards to promote NGC-only collections, and keep mixed collections present but in the background. This option is by far the win-win yet they ignored it.

To my point- the admin said she would "forward your feedback to the appropriate people".  Did it do any good?  LOL.

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5 hours ago, BlakeEik said:

Spoken like someone who has lots of PCGS coins grandfathered in!  LOL. Unfairness to you means nothing if it does not affect you. 

Look, if you agree with Mark Salzberg's letter, and you have fun at the NGC registry, then YOU ignore the feedback and go live in your bubble.  Leave the rest of us who are fighting unfairness alone! 

Actually, I have NO PCGS coins in the Registry at all, nor do I have any in my collection.  I do not own a single PCGS graded coin. I don't even collect US coins, so your statement makes no sense as PCGS graded World coins just aren't allowed.....none are "grandfathered in".  For what I collect (mostly Canadian but other World coins as well), PCGS graded coins are not even good to buy as they are not very respected in those collecting circles.  You should probably actually look at my sets before you make such a statement.   As I do not collect US coins, this whole thing didn't affect me at all as this change was made to the World sets long ago.  So, you're completely off-base in your response to me.  I stand by what I said before.  But, I'm not going to argue with you aside from saying you should probably look at people's sets before shooting your mouth off.

Edited by Mohawk
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Also, Blake, I notice that you're a relative newbie here without much activity on the boards.  Did you just decide to come back in order to resurrect this relatively old fight? If so, why?  What's the point?  If you love PCGS so much, their Registry is waiting right over on their website.  You can collect and post PCGS graded coins to your heart's content over there.  Maybe you should move across the street.  I think you'll be happier there and I think we'll be happier without you.

Edited by Mohawk
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@Mohawk if you read what I said you will see everything is 100% accurate. “Spoken like” someone means a simile follows. You can look up simile if you need to. You may not have any pcgs coins at all. That does not matter to me or make my statement incorrect. You sound EXACTLY like someone with lots of pcgs coins. 

I care about the hobby and I care about fairness. What do you care about? I don’t love pcgs, but they are consistent. Why not remove all pcgs coins from competition?  Why penalize new people? These are my points: the policy is  contrary to good will and to the creed the ANA promises. There is no allowable reason to have a double standard.

I’m so glad you are not going to argue with me because I find uninformed and unprincipled people tiring. I agree it would be best if you stayed in your corner. 

 

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8 minutes ago, BlakeEik said:

I’m so glad you are not going to argue with me because I find uninformed and unprincipled people tiring. I agree it would be best if you stayed in your corner. 

Ouch... 

For what it's worth, I had a world coin kicked from my Netherlands 10G set when world coins were kicked. I lost the category for the next 4 years in part because that coin wasn't in the set. If it had been in, I would have been beating the guy who won it those 4 years. I'm still okay with the choice NGC made here. Whether or not Mark S's reasoning was accurate or not I can't claim to know, but I have to give them one thing: They actually bothered to give a reason, stand by it, and let people criticize them for it on boards / a web-site they pay for. From what I've heard, that wouldn't go over well with PCGS, or there were certainly times 10 years ago when that wouldn't have been allowed in their house. That will always earn NGC some respect in my book.

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6 hours ago, BlakeEik said:

@Revenant thanks for sharing that. I am unfamiliar with what happened with world coins. It sounds like their solution was controversial, but was it levied equally to all?  

With World coins there was no grandfathering. They (PCGS coins) all got kicked out of the NGC registry. If you look back here and in the journals there was a lot said about it when it happened in 2012. That's why US sets since 2012 have a "Best in Category" and an "NGC only Best in Category," but there is only "Best in Category" for world sets. There are no coins but NGC coins in the world sets.

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7 hours ago, BlakeEik said:

@Mohawk if you read what I said you will see everything is 100% accurate. “Spoken like” someone means a simile follows. You can look up simile if you need to. You may not have any pcgs coins at all. That does not matter to me or make my statement incorrect. You sound EXACTLY like someone with lots of pcgs coins. 

I care about the hobby and I care about fairness. What do you care about? I don’t love pcgs, but they are consistent. Why not remove all pcgs coins from competition?  Why penalize new people? These are my points: the policy is  contrary to good will and to the creed the ANA promises. There is no allowable reason to have a double standard.

I’m so glad you are not going to argue with me because I find uninformed and unprincipled people tiring. I agree it would be best if you stayed in your corner. 

 

Yeah.....I'm neither uninformed or unprincipled. I've been doing this for a long time and I'm more principled than you'll ever know because you are not someone who I intend to get to know.  I don't know why I'm bothering to type this other than the fact that you are not 100% accurate and the fact that I don't intend to sit here and take *spoon* from the likes of you, Blake.  Believe it or not, I'm usually a pretty easy going guy and easy to get along with, but you've really *spoon*ed me off.  You came in here on the offensive, replying to some old comments in a very nasty, confrontational and juvenile way that sought only to start problems.  Which you have successfully done, so kudos to you there, buddy. If there's one thing I don't like in this world, Blake, it's bullies.  And that's exactly what you've been with the tone and wording of your responses on here. A bully and an instigator.  Also, your definition and use of the term simile are incorrect, what you said is certainly not a simile but that doesn't matter here, I guess, though you did childishly insult Mk123 about his spelling.  People who live in glass houses there, Blake......Anyhow, I just agree with what NGC has done and I don't understand why people like you need to keep coming onto our happy little boards here and continue to have a tantrum over NGC finally doing with their Registry what PCGS has been doing all along.  Blake, I can already tell that I don't like you at all, but I think that we both care about the same issue in different ways: fairness.  You're feeling that NGC is being unfair to you by disallowing PCGS coins in their Registry, I get that but, let's see if you can understand this, I feel that you and others are being unfair to NGC for punishing them for what PCGS has always done: disallowing coins from their competitors on their Registries.  What do I care about? The hobby and fairness, much like you proclaim to, though in an obviously different way.  NGC is not having a double standard, which is what you do not seem to understand.  NGC and PCGS both have different grading standards, as Mark Salzburg explained, and after a lot of review and thought, they decided that PCGS's standards were not up to NGC's standards and, thusly, should not be included in the NGC Registry in order to be fair to those of us who only pursue NGC graded coins in the NGC Registry.  They did this to level the playing field, so all coins in the NGC Registry are graded to the same standards, namely NGC's standards.  They made this decision to do exactly what you keep complaining about: to be fair.  If anything, I feel they should have banned all PCGS coins from the Registry and not grandfathered any in at all.....that was a kind gift on NGC's part to long time Registry collectors.  I think that what NGC has done is fair to those of us who have been here for a long time.  If you don't find it fair to you, Blake, and you don't like it, then you can go collect somewhere else.  No one is forcing you to be here or to participate on the NGC Registry.  Basically, I'm at the point with you and people like you of saying that if you don't like it, leave.  It's that simple.  Don't keep coming on here and complaining about it.  NGC has made their decision to be fair to those of us who have been here for a long time and only pursue NGC graded coins.  If you feel that hurts you as a newbie, sorry you feel that way.  But that's how it is and it's not going to change, no matter how much you keep complaining about it.  Now, I hope that this is my very last interaction with you.  I think it's time to put you on ignore and make sure that it is.

Edited by Mohawk
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@Revenant I did not know that they kicked out all PCGS coins out of world collections. I do not collect world coins. I don’t think that was a good idea, but I do think that was a fair way to handle it. If you are having a competition the same rules should apply to everyone. Period.

So I agree that you would be upset  but you can understand the reasoning. 

 

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6 hours ago, BlakeEik said:

So I agree that you would be upset  but you can understand the reasoning. 

I was less upset than you might think, honestly. I kind of just shrugged at the time. I bring it up now only because, in the context of this conversation, with some people, it gives my opinion more weight because I had "skin in the game."

You have to keep in mind what this competition really is, what it really means, and what you get out of it. The competition is between registry members. So winning the category doesn't mean that you have the best set in the world - it just means you have the best set of graded coins, as assessed using their points/ranking system, among those that choose to participate. There could be someone with a nicer set than the winner, even a nicer set of graded coins that would rank higher if the owner listed them, but the owner of that set just chooses not to participate. There are people out there that think a set that just has one really high grade, condition rarity coin with a huge point value should not be able to beat a complete / nearly complete set. There are people that think that 100% complete sets should get a point boost over incomplete sets and people that think that is BS. There are people out there that would think a great set of blast-white coins is better than a set of toners. There are people out there that would pay more for a set of MS64 coins with great toning than they would for a set of MS66 blast white, lustrous coins. So there's some inherent subjectivity in the rankings / gradings that you'll never eliminate and the "winner" / "best set" can never be universally established or agreed upon.

Also: at the end of the day, all you get most of the time is a certificate and maybe some bragging rights. If you win one of the major awards that's a bigger deal now because in the last few years they've started giving $500 grading credits along with the plaque. But, I would argue that, given the time and monetary investment required to win one of the major awards, or even some of the minor category awards, if you're only in it to win, you need to re-examine priorities a bit. I just can't imagine doing this would be worth it unless you just love collecting the stuff anyway or you place an excessive importance on outside praise / validation.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I love the awards and the competition. I think it adds something wonderful to the community. Even the journal awards, which don't come with the cash, feel wonderful to receive because it tells you that your contributions to the community are noticed, valued and appreciated. I greatly appreciate every award I've received from NGC in the last 12 years or so. But I do think it's a mistake to pursue them at the cost of the joy of collecting itself.

Just $0.02 worth or an unsolicited opinion.

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Of course you are right about the registry and about its significance in the world.  My life priorities are similar.  However, I am passionate about my hobbies, and that same argument can be used against NGC: "Hey NGC, why are changing the rules YOU made? Your registry is meaningless in terms of life priorities, so why mess with it and why give some people an unfair advantage?"  NGC plays such a big part in the hobby, I am fearful when they pander to their good'ole boy network at the cost of discouraging the future of the hobby. I know there are things people will always disagree with, but this simple statement stands true: in a competition, the same rules should apply to EVERYONE. Elitists like @Mohawk who opening mock other collectors are also killing the hobby.  I just when to my first coin show of 2019.  Wow what a difference a few years make.  It's sad.

The new NGC registry is interface is much better, but it would be so simple to add options that allow collectors to use all there coins, be more welcoming, and encourage young enthusiasts to collect. Scores can be filtered and categorized by grading company so all can feel good the rules are fair. Until NGC fixes it, I'm going to keep making noise despite bullies like @Mohawk.  He called me a bully, but look at what I was responding to.  If he means I am a bullier of bullies, well, he may have a point.

Thank you for your reply, I can tell you are an honorable collector.

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Wow all this over a decision that was made over two years ago, I'm not taking sides but why in the world would you want to bring all this up again @BlakeEik.  Bringing this around again will not change anything and serves no purpose except to bash and badmouth NGC.  My personal feelings were, and are, that NGC should have left PCGS coins in the sets but only awarded best in categories awards biased on NGC graded coins instead of the dual award given now.  I truly think that its completely silly to give NGC best in category awards to sets that are made up of 100% PCGS coins, just ridiculous.   However I also would have understood if NGC had made the decision not to grandfather in PCGS coins that were already in the system, many of my sets would have been impacted by that decision as I have about a 50/50 split between PCGS and NGC graded coins in my collection.  And if in the future NGC does decide to eliminate all PCGS graded coins from the registry sets I'll take that in stride and keep on collecting.  None of this bothers or worries me and I don't for a second think that the decision has somehow ruined the hobby or discouraged new collectors from entering the hobby.  If you want the ability to show all of your NGC and PCGS coins you can always setup a custom set and display your PCGS and NGC coins together still just not in the same competitive format.  Heck I have a custom set for coins in old holders and I cannot even display all of those coins as the custom sets will only show NGC and PCGS coins and I have many old ANACS, PCI, and other holders that cannot be shown.  Lol if there is any change I'd like to see it would be the ability to see all my old holder coins in my custom set.

 

Rules change, things change, the only real constant in this world is change, to spend so much energy and be so upset over a change that none of us has any control over is a waste of your time and energy.  Companies make changes as they see fit to best market and promote their brand or business; we the consumer may not agree or like those changes but that's life. 

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