ATS says:

[Hard Times]

NGC grades cleaned coins as market acceptable but apparently PCGS does not as implied by the statement in the opening post of the thread. I like the challenge spacehayduke has put out to the OP that suggests this.

 

Best, HT

 

ATS thread

[physics-fan3.14]

I've seen dogs in PCGS clothes, I've seen dogs in NGC clothes, and I've seen dogs with a CAC sticker.

 

Grade for yourself.

[dragon]

[brg5658]

 

[MarkFeld]

 

I'm not certain what the point was in posting that coin. But just in case, it doesn't look cleaned or AT to me.

[johnny9434]

im not sure what that looks like. just saying

[Nutmeg Coin]

I have seen more liberal treatment regarding lightly cleaned coins deemed market acceptable at PCGS it all depends on the coin. If you look at their statistics page the number of "cleaning" coins was running under 1% while their crossover rate was over 50% which would include non-NGC coins too as they accept other holders for crossover.

[Dave1384]

That garbage gets a 64....

[MarkFeld]

That garbage gets a 64....

 

The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it "garbage".

[numisport]

Just been thumbed a few times is all.

[MarkFeld]

Just been thumbed a few times is all.

 

Where do you get that idea? There would be no reason to thumb a coin with that much toning on it.

[Afterword]

Because of the heavy toning, I would have to see the coin in hand before I could venture more than just a guess as to it's grade, but I certainly see no reason why the toning alone should preclude a grade of MS-64 or higher.

[BillJones]

 

My take on the piece was that it was dipped before it was sent in for grading. It was bright white when it came back, but since it had not been properly rinsed, it toned to this ugly color. I think that it looks like hell, but there is probably a toner guy out there who will want it as a "rare originaly toned Peace Dollar."

[brg5658]

 

My take on the piece was that it was dipped before it was sent in for grading. It was bright white when it came back, but since it had not been properly rinsed, it toned to this ugly color. I think that it looks like hell, but there is probably a toner guy out there who will want it as a "rare originaly toned Peace Dollar."

 

+1

 

IMO it's awful = ugly.

 

[MarkFeld]

 

My take on the piece was that it was dipped before it was sent in for grading. It was bright white when it came back, but since it had not been properly rinsed, it toned to this ugly color. I think that it looks like hell, but there is probably a toner guy out there who will want it as a "rare originaly toned Peace Dollar."

 

The color and the pattern of the toning cause me to think it's not the result of a dip and improper rinse. It doesn't appear splotchy enough and is more red-orange as opposed to golden-brown that is often seen from an improper post-dip rinse. Additionally, I have seen a number of Walkers, Washington Quarters and Mercury dimes which exhibited similar hues and they appeared to be original.

[Walkerfan]

I don't think it's a retone after an improper rinse.

 

Although I don't mind the rust orange color; it is too dark and non-uniform for me. If it was more concentric, gradual and smooth; I might like it better

 

I am sure that some toner guy, especially one that loves Peace dollar toners as they tend to be rare, will pay up for it.

 

Not my cup of tea.

[RWB]

Not a good hair color for her....

[Afterword]

If this coin were as close to perfect as a coin could be beneath the toning (wonderful strike, all original surface intact and undamaged and displaying luster that is easily detectable by adjusting the angle by which the light strikes the coin), how much should said toning affect the grade and by what standard would you make this determination?

 

An otherwise easy MS-69 would be reduced to an MS....what?

 

[MarkFeld]

If this coin were as close to perfect as a coin could be beneath the toning (wonderful strike, all original surface intact and undamaged and displaying luster that is easily detectable by adjusting the angle by which the light strikes the coin), how much should said toning affect the grade and by what standard would you make this determination?

 

An otherwise easy MS-69 would be reduced to an MS....what?

 

I don't consider the toning a negative, so would not reduce the grade. Obviously, some other posters feel differently.

[Conder101]

Hence the problem with allowing eye appeal to be a factor in grading. What one person finds eye appealing, another finds ugly. So it you have a grader who likes the toning you get a high grade, and if you get one who hates the toning you get a low grade. Yet both are supposedly "correct".

[BillJones]

My guess is this picture makes this coin look as good as possible. Having messed with with photo processing software for many years, this looks like the "gold brown" part has been enhanced. I think that even the toner people will not be happy with this if they were ever to see it live.

 

As for the retoning, I'll stick by what I wrote. I know that sometimes these things can be spotty, but I've seen them pretty much cover the whole coin too. It all depends upon where the chemcial is. At any rate the fact that the toning is stronger in the center that it is on the edges, doesn't make look like 90+ years of toning to me. It looks more like a year or so.

[Hard Times]

My guess is this picture makes this coin look as good as possible. Having messed with with photo processing software for many years, this looks like the "gold brown" part has been enhanced. I think that even the toner people will not be happy with this if they were ever to see it live.

 

As for the retoning, I'll stick by what I wrote. I know that sometimes these things can be spotty, but I've seen them pretty much cover the whole coin too. It all depends upon where the chemcial is. At any rate the fact that the toning is stronger in the center that it is on the edges, doesn't make look like 90+ years of toning to me. It looks more like a year or so.

 

I agree with Bill on this, the toning looks off in some way, seeing it in hand tho may look different.

 

Best, HT

[coinman_23885]

The Peace Dollar that is the subject of this thread does not appear to be AT, cleaned, or thumbed to me as some have suggested. I also do not find it very attractive, but I do agree with its grade. A MS64 does not need to be a knock out eye appeal wise.

[BillJones]

A MS64 does not need to be a knock out eye appeal wise.

 

If I'm looking for an MS-64, and it lacks eye appeal, I'm not going to buy it. That applies to everything I buy down to VG, and I buy almost no items in VG or lower.

 

To me an ugly looking MS-64 graded coin is a trap PERIOD. It's impossble to sell for MS-64 money.

[Afterword]

"It's impossble to sell for MS-64 money."

 

 

 

Then you would not have paid MS-64 money, and should not expect to get it when you sell.

 

Is there really such a thing as MS-64 money - that is more than just a guideline?

[MarkFeld]

"It's impossble to sell for MS-64 money."

 

 

 

Then you would not have paid MS-64 money, and should not expect to get it when you sell.

 

Is there really such a thing as MS-64 money - that is more than just a guideline?

 

MS64 sight-unseen bid for the 1924-S dollar is currently $150 and CDN is $225. This year, a PCGS example has sold for as low as $150 and a number of others have sold for less than $200 each.

 

I believe that the coin in question would easily bring "64 money".

[Walkerfan]

I agree with Bill concerning grade. I chose MS 64 as my optimal grade for early Walkers, so I feel that I have some experience with the grade.

 

I try to buy a lot of PQ 64s that look better than many 65s, so YES, I have high standards for the 64 grade.

 

Maybe I am just LUCKY that I bought them years ago, when they were still available and standards were stricter.

 

But at 63 and higher; I believe that you should expect a nice coin.

 

Unfortunately, there is dreck out there in EVERY numeric plastic grade, these days so it seems, and one must be more careful than ever before.

[coinman_23885]

A MS64 does not need to be a knock out eye appeal wise.

 

If I'm looking for an MS-64, and it lacks eye appeal, I'm not going to buy it. That applies to everything I buy down to VG, and I buy almost no items in VG or lower.

 

To me an ugly looking MS-64 graded coin is a trap PERIOD. It's impossble to sell for MS-64 money.

 

It certainly is not a coin I would purchase either, but that does not mean that it should be relegated to a details slab as some have suggested. Unfortunately, NGC and PCGS don't get the option to pass on ugly coins. I wouldn't call it an error on PCGS's part at all.

[MarkFeld]

A MS64 does not need to be a knock out eye appeal wise.

 

If I'm looking for an MS-64, and it lacks eye appeal, I'm not going to buy it. That applies to everything I buy down to VG, and I buy almost no items in VG or lower.

 

To me an ugly looking MS-64 graded coin is a trap PERIOD. It's impossble to sell for MS-64 money.

 

It certainly is not a coin I would purchase either, but that does not mean that it should be relegated to a details slab as some have suggested. Unfortunately, NGC and PCGS don't get the option to pass on ugly coins. I wouldn't call it an error on PCGS's part at all.

 

That reminds me of a couple of things I realized, quite soon after I started grading at NGC:

 

1) As long as a coin merits a straight grade, a grader needs to assign one, even if he thinks the coin is ugly and/or he dislikes it.

 

2) Just because you don't like the look of a graded coin doesn't mean it's over-graded. There are countless unappealing looking coins which are (also) accurately graded.

[Afterword]

"It's impossble to sell for MS-64 money."

 

 

 

Then you would not have paid MS-64 money, and should not expect to get it when you sell.

 

Is there really such a thing as MS-64 money - that is more than just a guideline?

 

MS64 sight-unseen bid for the 1924-S dollar is currently $150 and CDN is $225. This year, a PCGS example has sold for as low as $150 and a number of others have sold for less than $200 each.

 

I believe that the coin in question would easily bring "64 money".

 

 

 

 

What is the motivation for buying sight-unseen and, conversely, what is the motivation for selling sight-unseen?