new pcgs board policy

[K6AZ]

Greg, this confirms my suspicions. If they have banned you, I am sure I won't be far behind. So it isn't just trolling posters they are going after, but anyone who has a legitimate beef with their abysmal customer service.

[shirohniichan]

I'm courteous and very short. They have no reason to ban me.

[gmarguli]

Nice to see you here. In fact, looking around there seems to be a lot of familiar faces that don't usually come over here.

 

I wonder if my prediction that any PCGS censorship would equal lots of users moving over here is coming true or just a temporary thing. I actually posted that on the other forums a few days ago.

 

You might be lucky and get banned over there rather quickly. I think the criteria is "anything that David Hall doesn't like - even if it is the truth". You seem to speak the truth. That's very dangerous over there.

 

Oh well, it's warm and comfy over here.

[MastaHanky]

<< Nice to see you here. In fact, looking around there seems to be a lot of familiar faces that don't usually come over here. >>

 

I'll be here a lot more often. There's no excuse for PCGS' childish behavior. I have no intention on going back there.

 

Time to go Photoshop a Nazi picture.

[TonerGuy]

Looks like I might be doing some more posting on this side of the street -- what the h*ll, my toned Peaces all reside with NGC, so should I.

 

And no I didn't get banned, but it is more cozy here -- no kool-aid served on this website.

 

Michael

[Leothelion]

What can I say?

[Android]

I agree with Irishmike. The main reason that the NGC boards are not like PCGS is the fact that if there is a problem with NGC, and it is publicly posted, the problem is ADDRESSED, leaving very little for anyone to complain about. This is what a SERVICE company is all about. I've heard so many people on the PCGS boards, including Mr. Hall, talk about the PRODUCT PCGS provides. As someone else mentioned over there, the COIN is the product, the CERTIFICATION of the coin is a service.

 

Andy

[clackamas-migration]

I thought I was going to get banned from the PCGS board. I have complained about the grading of late and of my bonus fingerprints.

[clackamas-migration]

Arrg, I guess I have not posted here nearly enough ... I am "Learning the ropes"

[K6AZ]

Greg, I signed up here over a year ago. The only reason I haven't posted here much is because I find this site slightly more difficult to navigate, especially the registry.

 

I think what really did it with me as far as the people "across the street" was there was a post in the Q&A regarding how long graders looked at a coin, the particular poster was hammered with several AU58s. DH, in his usual arrogant style, made a wisecrack and did not answer the question.

 

As far as my grading service of choice these days, that was an easy decision. Two plus months turnaround for economy? There is absolutely no excuse for it.

[K6AZ]

Hey, look at me. I registered over a year ago, but it says I just got here!

[Leothelion]

First it was RM then David Bowers and others. Now it's forum members?

Something's telling me there's more of a deeper rooted problem at PCGS.

 

Leo

[MastaHanky]

<< I think what really did it with me as far as the people "across the street" was there was a post in the Q&A regarding how long graders looked at a coin, the particular poster was hammered with several AU58s. DH, in his usual arrogant style, made a wisecrack and did not answer the question. >>

 

I actually thought that was hilarious. But we won't get into that argument. It was the Nazism that is taking place over there that did it for me. You can see my post over there, as I'm too lazy to type it again.

[SarasotaFrank]

Before this gets deleted or censored over there, I wanted to post this here.

 

In the wee hours of the morning David Hall responded to the 140 posts in the thread by stating:

 

Hello everyone...

 

We realize this was a controversial step, and we truly had mixed emotions. From the reponses and comments in this thread, it's my opinion that most of you "get it."

 

As for future action, please reread the announcement, especially the part that says...

 

"The message boards will censor any mean-spirited, one-sided criticism of PCGS and we will boot members that consistently bag on PCGS."

 

We not in the business of booting people off the PCGS message boards. We respect all of our customers and have learned a lot from their posts...both the positive and the negative ones. I have personally enjoyed most of the free-wheeling atmoshere of these forums and hope that virtually all of that fire will remain. Today we booted one person...just one person. A few days ago we booted another person. If your don't "consistently bag on PCGS"...in a "mean-spirited, one-sided" way, then we won't ever have a problem.

 

For those of you who think we've lost a couple of tell-it-like-it-is guys, I can tell you from my point of view this is simply not the case. I can tell you...whether you believe it or not...that a significant portion of what these bashers have harped on is not only mean-spirited and one-sided, it's simply not true. The fact that a person is very vocal in his posts, is good at expressing himself with the written word, and/or is clever in his approach, does not make what he says the truth.

 

Thanks for your understanding.

 

I'm here every Tuesday night on the Q&A Forum and I always try to answer every question you asked. For those of you who have asked questions that haven't been answered, please give me some time. In most cases where I don't answer questions immediately there is some part of the question that I don't know the answer to and I need to to talk to someone in PCGS operations or customer service to be sure I don't give you incorrect information. In a few cases I don't answer questions because we're about to make a decision on an issue brought up in your question and I want to be sure of what we're doing before I answer your question. I will get to virtually every question eventually.

 

Thanks again for your participation in our message boards.

 

David Hall

 

This really didn't sit well with me. I have seen a number of threads titled "David Hall - please respond to this customer service question". Time after time no response. Members get banned, and then after the members are removed, the easy answer is the stuff was "untrue" (read: they were lying)

 

I responded as follows:

 

<< We realize this was a controversial step, and we truly had mixed emotions. From the reponses and comments in this thread, it's my opinion that most of you "get it." >>

 

I believe there is a significant difference between "getting it" and "buying it"

 

There are a number of posters who have expressed their support for this move. They have "bought it"

 

There are a number of posters who question this activity. They "get it"

 

I am not a PCGS critic by any means. I am a dealer critic - and probably more of an outspoken one than might be diplomatic, but when I see a waddling, quacking creature, I am inclined to call it a duck.

 

I questioned this move when it was first announced, the move, as well as the public announcement of the prospect of banning those critical of PCGS in a "one sided, mean spirited way". I haven't seen the one sidedness personally, but perhaps I have not been paying attention.

 

However, to further come back and state that these "attacks" (or requests for clarification) were untrue after the parties who were raising questions can no longer respond in the same forum - now that's one sided. It is also taking very unfair advantage. Kinda sorta along the lines of:

 

We will ignore the questions we don't want to answer.

 

If you ask them often enough, we will take away the outlet in which you can ask them.

 

After you can no longer ask the questions, we'll simply say you were lying."

 

I can also understand that the company really doesn't want to invest in public "he said/she said" stuff on a public forum, as it becomes a big waste of time. But resolution could probably have been reached rather than by simply shooting the dissenter. Granted it makes the problem go away, but it sure does create questions in the minds of those who didn't get shot.

 

We are all entitled to our opinion.

 

<>

 

I think PCGS would have been much better served to let this thing just whither away. This really looks bad.

 

 

[K6AZ]

I didn't think it was funny at all. Some of us depend on PCGS and NGC to grade our coins fairly in a reasonable amount of time so we can move them. This business is critical to me and I depend on it for a good part of my income. To have the man who mysteriously acquired the first PCGS MS70 Buffalo Dollar come back with that comment was too much for me.

[dakra]

Hello everyone,

Yes, I was one of the banned. I just read through some of the messages on PCGS in which there are only a few people missing. I enjoyed the PCGS message board, I spent a great deal of time learning, sharing and joking with people... it was fun. Occasionally there were little skirmishes and battles but we all came away in one piece, I can't say that anyone ever held grudges against each other.

 

My PCGS membership is just about up, I know where my money is going, just let me know where I sign up around here

 

-Dave

[Outhaul]

Well, I wasn't banned, but I think I'll be doing more posting on the sunny side of the street.

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[nwcs]

I wasn't banned, though I recently posted my thread on my newly fingerprinted and palmprinted coin. But I've been slowly making the migration to playing on this side of the street more and more. I like the atmosphere over here. More like what the boards were like over there when I first joined in. And I'm looking forward to partaking of NGC's customer service, too. And meeting some of the current/former graders NEXT WEEK!

 

Neil

[DonHeath]

OK, I promise this will be my last thought about this policy before I move forward and talk about coins, which are really my interest, not how PCGS behaves. I think DH has no concept of what it is like to be a submitter or user of the service. My take after spending lots of time there is that they just aren't collector oriented.

 

It took a good deal of lobbying to get a representative to speak with the board, something NGC has done for some time. (Thanks Rick M.)

 

Turn-around times have grown unacceptable. (economy 50 days?)

 

Customer service tends to be poor. I called once to ask about a submission that was at 30 days, and was told "Well you did submit it economy". I as a customer felt embarrased for calling. The last time I called NGC to ask how to check an invoice online, I was told "Well, one of the benefits of membership is that invoices submitted online can be checked online, but I'll check for you now."

 

When Laura/Legend reported on the board that dealers were frustrated by overtight grading at a recent show, DH said in a spawned thread that in his experience most dealers were poor graders anyway (Lord knows we collectors can't). That may be the opinion at the watercooler, but it had no place on the boards as justification for the frustration at the show. Dismissing career numismatists who submit and make collector recommendations is poor form.

 

Recently, to quell grading concerns, DH implemented a Presidential review of coins believed to be misgraded. Ironically, at the show the coins DH previewed and recommended for possible upgrade were killed in grading, with one in particular downgrading a point (even though it was submitted holdered for review). While this "review" might correct some holdered mistakes, it feels too much like a second grading fee for a coin the submitter feels PCGS misgraded the first time. Add that to the obvious disagreement between DH and the graders re what the standard must be and I wonder what will be holdered.

 

Lastly, although removal of inappropriate posts is any board hosts responsibility, removal of board members/submitters who post opinions contrary to your own without notification doesn't improve the quality of the commentary of a message board, but rather makes it you appear one-sided and closed-minded to your customers.

 

I know this post will be read by PCGS staff, and I hope it will provide guidance. I believe multiple competing services are good for the hobby, and good for the competitors. I will still purchase coins in PCGS plastic when I feel they are correctly graded, but I won't be a submitter. The environment is just too collector hostile.

 

NGC has been extremely polite and helpful with my submissions, and grading has been consistent (predictable) and fair. Based on commentary from more frequent submitters, they are also interested in customer satisfaction. My thanks to them, and heres to healthy competition.

 

 

 

[parasite]

Greg,

Don't worry you have the type of personality that will get you banned many times in the future. Never lose sight in the fact that in this country you can say what ever you like. PCGS = COMMUNISM. Being banned is like losing your virginity. First you feel guilty but as time goes on you think what the heck this feels so good you just have to do it again.

 

KINGKOIN KING OF KOINS

[jtryka]

"The message boards will censor any mean-spirited, one-sided criticism of PCGS and we will boot members that consistently bag on PCGS."

 

I must admit, as an analyst I am paid to think critically, and sometimes I miss the forest through the trees, but can someone give me an example of criticism that's not one-sided? If I put forth critism X, I can't also say that Not-X is also the case without being schizophrenic. Certainly there is a difference between constructive and unconstructive criticism, but in my mind all criticism is one-sided, since you must take a position, and it's up to the entity being criticized to respond (either No, X is not the case and here's why, or yes, you're right, we'll address it). Certainly posts like "You suck, and I hate you" are not constructive, and there is really no appropriate response, but "You suck because you put fingerprints on my coin" can be responded to appropriately. Unfortunately, PCGS has chosen to respond in a blanket way, "No we didn't, and it's you who suck, so be gone!"

 

As for those of you who were banned, I applaud you, and welcome you to this side of the street. Personally, I left those boards at the end of last year, and quite honestly I have enjoyed this hobby far more in the 2 1/2 months since then, than I did all of last year!

[GoldenState]

<

 

Too bad for PCGS. I answered 100X the number of questions that David Hall ever answered and my answers were 100% truthful. Wonder if he can put down his fiddle long enough to answer the burning questions?

 

I guess it doesn't matter if you've spent over $100,000 in submissions with them - like I have. You can't complain over there because they do no wrong.>>

 

I find myself agreeing with Greg. I know he doesn't like me (and it is bounded in fact, based on some of my antics on the PCGS board, from which I, too, am now banned). However, it is true that the company has set up a rather nightmarish situation over there---they created a forum which became a personal "launching pad" for invective. When it became so, and individuals started to abuse the system ( I was a serious offender, and won't play patty perfect---I did act obnoxiously), PCGS's response was to SELECTIVELY censor anything that smacked of denigrading the company.\

 

Apparently, they are unable to sort out the personalities from the business aspects of the message board there. Despite my multiple identlies, or caustic comments, I have done considerable business with PCGS merchandise, as well as NGC, and ANACS goods as well. Their filppant disregard of the CONSUMER (not the personalities and alter-egoes of the posters--as they are anonymous, that is a bit hard to control, given the virtual nature of internet posting) will come back to bite them in the posterior.

 

I don't agree with thir decision, even though my exile doesn't have anything to do with their policies. Frankly, they're hypocrites, as they created the monster themselves, and now struggle to contain it in a satisfactory manner. Any grownup would see through the attitude of "say what you want, provided with the limitations that you must be socially acceptable on OUR terms" is very naive.

 

 

[LanLord]

I'd be interested in knowing how many, if any, are boycotting the board across the street?

 

I was very disappointed with the new "law of the land" over there and what it has done so far.

 

I signed off and closed out the browser.

 

A lot of people are saying, "it's their board, they can run it as they please". While it is certainly their board, I think that they should be intelligent enough to realize it's a huge advertizing tool for them, and they have just lost some free advertizing by alienating customers.

[nwcs]

I haven't decided. On the one hand, the other board had a lot of people and usually had interesting things to read. And this board sometimes does get quite slow. But with all the changes over there, I may just finish my transition to over here. But the feel over there is like the feel of a company when it has had a layoff and all the survivors are grousing. Even a pizza party by the boss doesn't eliminate the feelings of the layoff.

 

Theme song

 

Neil

[parasite]

LANDLORD,

One word can express what you are trying to say.

It's called GREED.

 

KINGKOIN KING OF KOINS

[shirohniichan]

I'll stay with PCGS a while longer. After all, they started both Canadian and chopmarked trade dollar Set Registries.

 

With such innovation as that, how can I complain? I haven't been around here for a while because it took me a few months of psycho-numismatic therapy to get over KeithDagen's harsh criticism of my Philippine set registry idea.

[Jaredc-migration]

I am conflicted a bit. I really stayed away from the US coin board for a few weeks becuase of all that was going on becuase I didn't feel I had anything worthwhile to contribute. Though I understand the new policy I do not agree with the decision to instanlty ban anyone. All should have been grandfathered and forgiven of the "sins" they had committed in the past before the new policy had been put in. With that, I will probably start to come over here more. Even though I may have only written 6 posts before this in over a year, I found that the serious questions I asked were answered quickly unlike over on the PCGS board where they quickly got buried underneath a mound of lesser threads in my opinion.

[TonerGuy]

I'm blown away by the banning of members, especially those that were paid members and whose membership fees paid for access to the Board and Forums. I sincerely hope that Mr. Hall refunded your membership dues with your notice of your ban. I checked the membership agreement and there wasn't anything located in the agreement about termination of the agreement based upon comments on the forum.

 

I'm also blown away by the fact that he had the greatest focus group available to any CEO/President and he just ignores the complaints and problems. Other companies pay large sums of money for feedback that he had been provided for free. Most large, well run companies want to know how their product/service doesn't live up to their customer's expectations. CU/PCGS just wants to bury their collective heads and hope that by banning detractors, their own internal problems will become less apparent. I challenge Mr. Hall to post a Mission Statement to the PCGS Forum and pledge to his customers, members, bashers & detractors, that PCGS will strive to be a more consumer oriented company and live up to it. I doubt that will happen, though.

 

With all the recent mangament departures, this company has been and will continue to be in a nose dive until "they get it." (in Hall's own words) I suspect that there's some chuckling and smiling going on in Florida right now, the door is apparently opening for NGC.

 

Michael

[keithdagen]

I haven't been around here for a while because it took me a few months of psycho-numismatic therapy to get over KeithDagen's harsh criticism of my Philippine set registry idea.

 

I see that Tonelover is over here stirring up the Dark Side pot too. Weirdos.

[jom]

I don't see why EVP would be banned actually. In fact, I don't even know darka that well to say I could "see" why he got canned either. Greg, on the other hand, makes some sense....at least for the fools who think PCGS is perfect and without fault.

 

On the other hand, WallStMan probably got a promotion to the board of directors of PCGS.

 

jom

 

PS: I've heard that EVP is actually at the Baltimore show so there really isn't any evidence he got banned.