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How is this MS63???

Started by Danye West,

84 posts in this topic

erwindoc

erwindoc

Posted
Posted

Not sure on this one, other that it is definitely softly struck. Both PCGS and CAC appear to agree. This may be one of those coins where its difficult to grade by photos.

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Walkerfan

Walkerfan

Posted
Posted
Not sure on this one, other that it is definitely softly struck. Both PCGS and CAC appear to agree. This may be one of those coins where its difficult to grade by photos.

 

Yes, it is due to a poor strike. I've seen Walkers like this before. If it was sharper it would be a 4 or a 5.

 

My guess is that there are no luster breaks, when viewed in hand.

 

This is NOT to say that AU coins don't wind up in 63 slabs----they definitely do.

 

 

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jom

jom

Posted
Posted

You may no like the coin but the chances PCGS AND CAC blew this is rather small.

 

Regardless, if the coin is not to your liking who cares what the grade is? Ignore and go find a nicer one!

 

However, I should add that if you are thinking of finding 1917-D Walker that is going to look like your typical 1944 don't hold your breath.

 

jom

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EleMint Man

EleMint Man

Posted
Posted

 

 

 

AU55 details with MS69 toning. Average the two and you end up with MS63.

Maybe that's how PCGS and CAC graded this. I've seen many toned coins

in holders that have a substantially higher grade than strike/details would indicate.

Trouble is, grade determines the value....in most cases.

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orifdoc

orifdoc

Posted
Posted

I think you're confusing a weak strike with wear. The photo isn't helping it much. In-hand, I think you'd probably see the difference.

 

The toning adds positive eye appeal, but only a little - 1/2 point at most.

 

For a 17-D, that's a really nice coin & I'd be very happy with it at MS63.

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EleMint Man

EleMint Man

Posted
Posted

 

This nice example has no problem with me as to the grade. I don't see any problems

period!

 

http://coins.ha.com/itm/walking-liberty-half-dollars/half-dollars/1917-d-50c-obverse-ms63-pcgs/a/1234-4281.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

 

Sold for: $1,586.25

1917-D 50C Obverse MS63 PCGS.

 

This particular date is hard to price for there's a big difference between the major

"Pricers". CDN bid is $975 and ask is/ $1,085. Pretty sure most sellers are going to want at least $1,250...more like $1,400+. Some nice ones on eBay now.

 

 

 

 

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EleMint Man

EleMint Man

Posted
Posted
I think you're confusing a weak strike with wear. The photo isn't helping it much. In-hand, I think you'd probably see the difference.

 

The toning adds positive eye appeal, but only a little - 1/2 point at most.

 

For a 17-D, that's a really nice coin & I'd be very happy with it at MS63.

 

 

 

It is a nice coin and I'm sure there quite a few people interested in it. I just bought

a nicely toned raw Buffalo at about $20 over what I think it might grade. My point is

grades and price values go out the window when it comes to toning, luster,

rarity etc. This Buff had the best toning in the price range I can afford now.

Initially, I made an offer of 20% below asking and when I didn't get a response

in a couple hours I decided I may not see one like this in a long time and bought it

before ti was gone...forever!

 

162838.jpg.170703f85e4f729de55e6e28cbc57a66.jpg

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BillJones

BillJones

Posted
Posted

I have no idea why CAC put a sticker in that one. Even if it is Mint State, which it probably is, the strike is very weak. My grade would have been MS-62 at best.

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Nutmeg Coin

Nutmeg Coin

Posted
Posted

There are many factors that go into grade and PCGS and CAC got it right on that one IMO. I had a PCGS MS65 1944-S Walker that I was quoted an offer on many years ago by one of the Coin World "top buyer" advertisers. He said he could only offer MS64 money because the strike wasn't all there! I was pretty disgusted by the guy's attitude as it had a ton of eye appeal. A coin doesn't have to have a full hand in order to be gem.

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mommam17

mommam17

Posted
Posted

I think PCGS and CAC were right in their opinion of the coin. Funny how people look at a picture and feel PCGS and CAC got it wrong, even though they held coin in their hands. VERY comical........

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messydesk

messydesk

Posted
Posted
There are many factors that go into grade and PCGS and CAC got it right on that one IMO.

I would tend to agree, especially since they both had the benefit of actually seeing the coin rather than a mediocre picture.

I had a PCGS MS65 1944-S Walker that I was quoted an offer on many years ago by one of the Coin World "top buyer" advertisers. He said he could only offer MS64 money because the strike wasn't all there! I was pretty disgusted by the guy's attitude as it had a ton of eye appeal. ...

My experience is that "top buyers" that take out big ads in CW will probably give the lowest offers on coins, accompanied by lame excuses for doing so. They have to pay for those big ads somehow.

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WoodenJefferson

WoodenJefferson

Posted
Posted

The photograph presented on that web site did not flatter that coin at all.

 

The gap between a AU-55 and MS-63 is enormous on a grading scale, I can see a nudge from 62 to 63, but I cannot see a nudge to 64 on this weakly struck coin. Perhaps the luster and toning could push it to a 64, but we'll never know just by looking at those images.

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numisport

numisport

Posted
Posted

CAC will buy this coin sight unseen. Don't buy this coin. Weakly struck coins rarely bring strong money and this coin will always carry the 'weak strike' tag with the grade.

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BillJones

BillJones

Posted
Posted

It amazes me how some people feel obligated to circle the wagons around the PCGS - CAC combination. I have blown up this picture to the max. The strike is so weak that Ms. Liberty has no hand, and much the detail from her head to her toes is missing. MS-63 means "Choice Uncirculated."

 

What is choice about this coin that is missing so much detail? I don't get it. Why do you guys feel the need to rollover to this? Shouldn't you be doing all you can to maintain gracing standards.

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Walkerfan

Walkerfan

Posted
Posted
It amazes me how some people feel obligated to circle the wagons around the PCGS - CAC combination. I have blown up this picture to the max. The strike is so weak that Ms. Liberty has no hand, and much the detail from her head to her toes is missing. MS-63 means "Choice Uncirculated."

 

What is choice about this coin that is missing so much detail? I don't get it. Why do you guys feel the need to rollover to this? Shouldn't you be doing all you can to maintain gracing standards.

 

But, but, but......it's 'toned'. :devil:

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orifdoc

orifdoc

Posted
Posted

Interesting points raised by Bill Jones. I'd love to see this in-hand to have a good look. Without that, anything we say is just speculation based on poor images.

 

For the sake of argument, let's suppose the coin has all the other qualities of an MS66 but a remarkably poor strike? How do you grade that? What is a grader supposed to do with a luster-bomb, perfectly struck coin with a small staple scratch in a partially hidden area? How about a perfectly beautiful MS67 with the tiniest bit of rub? Would be the finest known but for that ugly fingerprint.......

 

There are lots of coins that do not lend themselves well to a consensus grade. Some people care more about strike than others, etc, etc. Stuff like this keeps coins from ever being traded as a fungible product.

 

 

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted

 

The coin looks awful, but then again, Great Toning's photos always have a lot to be desired. I bet it looks much better in hand. With that said, the hair over the ear is so weak that it would normally preclude a grade above MS64.

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted
I have no idea why CAC put a sticker in that one. Even if it is Mint State, which it probably is, the strike is very weak. My grade would have been MS-62 at best.

 

Unless the coin has blazing luster, I very much agree. I also see the toning as being ugly. Despite the fact that original early Walking Half Dollars are fairly scarce for many issues, I do not care for pieces that look like these and would not compromise eye appeal for originality.

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mommam17

mommam17

Posted
Posted

You blew the coin up but did not hold the coin in your hand like PCGS and CAC. It amazes me people think they can grade from pictures......Probably nice eye appeal and luster gave it the MS 63 grade.....

 

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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

"What is choice about this coin that is missing so much detail? I don't get it. Why do you guys feel the need to rollover to this? Shouldn't you be doing all you can to maintain grading standards."

 

Same here, Bill. I've just about given up trying to convince collectors to be critical of "grades" and "grading."

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Afterword

Afterword

Posted
Posted

"Despite the fact that original early Walking Half Dollars are fairly scarce for many issues, I do not care for pieces that look like these and would not compromise eye appeal for originality."

 

 

 

And you should not do so if you find eye appeal more important than originality, but others may not find the coin unattractive (or eye appeal more important than originality, for that matter). The graders may not have found the coin unattractive, or perhaps some did and it was graded MS-63 instead of the MS-64 assigned to it by the initial grader.

 

But it is the buyer's opinion that ultimately matters. Where is the need for the graders' opinions when it comes to eye appeal? Will not the buyer's opinion override it anyway? Why add one more subjective rung on the ladder of a process already besieged with subjectivity?

 

As to eye appeal being more important than originality, I will only say that eye appeal has more to do with personal perceptions than it does with the object being perceived. Are we just collecting pretty objects that happen to be coins?

 

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Nutmeg Coin

Nutmeg Coin

Posted
Posted

Here is one that I have with an obviously weak strike: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/FQgAAOSw37tV-xwY/s-l1600.jpg

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/3o8AAOSwQPlV-xxM/s-l1600.jpg

 

I bought it as a weakly struck nice Unc. from a PNG dealer. I'm not sure how the grading service can factor in all the strong and weak points on any given coin.

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Walkerfan

Walkerfan

Posted
Posted
Here is one that I have with an obviously weak strike: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/FQgAAOSw37tV-xwY/s-l1600.jpg

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/3o8AAOSwQPlV-xxM/s-l1600.jpg

 

I bought it as a weakly struck nice Unc. from a PNG dealer. I'm not sure how the grading service can factor in all the strong and weak points on any given coin.

 

It has nice luster.

 

The head, skirtlines & eagle's breast are all well struck up.

 

Only the central obverse thumb and branch stems are soft.

 

A few wispy abrasions in an otherwise clean field.

 

I have no trouble calling that one an MS 64.

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