$5 Indian fake

[Nutmeg Coin]

I picked this $5 Indian at a local shop, Sloats: http://i.imgur.com/ANvBgAH.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Xaji457.jpg

 

What is the diagnostic on this? After getting it back in the body bag, I was thinking the numbers were too sharp, etc.

[RWB]

Hmmm...if it was a hardware store or maybe a Krispy Kream doughnut shop, I can understand the problem. If it was a coin shop, shame on them -- return it.

[bourse28]

Return it, try get your money back.

 

I only buy this material if certified......

 

Next time only buy PCGS or NGC coins.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I'm also going to ask for the $25 grading fee refunded as that was their job, obviously I am out shipping and aggravation but to get the original non-negotiated price plus grading is reasonable.

 

Update: I called them and then got there before closing time and my money was refunded plus the grading fee.

[tommy44]

Out of over 200 raw US gold coins that I purchased over my 45+ years as a serious collector the only one that was counterfeit was a $5.00 Indian. It came back in a body bag after submitting it at FUN in January. It was the only $5.00 Indian I ever purchased. The good news is it is gold and I purchased it in the mid 70s for about $40.00 so I can still sell it for scrap at about 5 times what I paid for it including the NGC fees.

 

I was sure it was OK but upon close examination under a 10X loupe there were several very small pits in the deepest recesses of design details.

 

Meanwhile my only $2 1/2 Indian supposedly the most counterfeited of all US gold coins, came back in a MS 64 slab. Whew!

[USAuPzlBxBob]

It's a damn good fake. Their assessment was "not genuine?"

 

I compared it to the NGC Coin Explorer high-res photo and nothing stood out blatantly. Each side's image, side by side.

 

The NGC image was a lot frostier while your coin showed flat surfaces. But flat surfaces would never tip me off.

 

I suppose when you've looked at many of these, you get a sixth sense about things, and you do a double take, and examine it in much more detail when something seems off.

 

While everyone thinks each coin is given a quick once over, no more than a few seconds per coin, and then they're slabbed-up, probably the truth of it is that when something doesn't seem right, then the whole examination bogs down, and they want to get it right at that point. And isn't it the case that several different graders may look at a single coin so that a consensus is reached?

[mumu]

Check for proper volume.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Check for proper volume.

 

What do you mean, and how is this done?

[mumu]

Check for proper volume.

 

What do you mean, and how is this done?

 

Portable beaker.

[EleMint Man]

This is the best info I can find so far on counterfeit gold coins aka "Fake' gold coins.

Fake is legal (!) while counterfeit isn't. Trying to find out the sources of counterfeit

gold coin producers...uh, I'll leave it up to the Feds to nail them!

 

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?NewsletterNewsArticleID=703

 

Looks like a good 'ole Mom and Pop store, heh.

 

http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/

[RWB]

Fake, false, counterfeit -- all are substantially the same thing and all are illegal: they purport to be a legal tender coin when they are not.

[EleMint Man]

Almost as important:)

 

http://coins.about.com/od/coingrading/ig/Fake-PCGS-Slab-Diagnostics/

 

Also, some people could be coned into buying these as genuine.....

 

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2011-America-eagle-gold-coin-the-United-States-Liberty-50-Dollar-souvenir-USA-coins-replica-capsule/32590902536.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.311.7B0Hmr&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_10,searchweb201602_3_10017_10005_10006_10034_10021_507_10022_10009_10020_10008_10018_10019,searchweb201603_9&btsid=67b82cef-d863-4bcd-a8a5-6b072dea0fa5

 

 

[Insider]

Check the points of the arrows. It looks like there are "holes" on the points. If so, this is a very old type!

[Insider]

Just saw the obverse image. "Patch" of horizontal die polish at back of neck.

 

Diagnostics for this fake were written up as far back as 1988!

 

PS: IMO, This is a crude fake referred to as "chocolate" or "Across-the-room" fake.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Check for proper volume.

 

What do you mean, and how is this done?

 

Portable beaker.

Huh?

 

So, you're supposed to take your $5 Indian Head that you bought, and determine its volume by immersing it in a beaker of… water?

 

And the result you derive will assure you that the volume will help you determine that the $5 Indian Head is genuine or fake?

 

I’ve never heard of anyone doing this, but I have a lot to learn. I looked around on sites like Wizard, and no one sells equipment to perform this sort of measurement, so here goes. (Just a quick sidetrack on this thread.)

 

This would be my approach:

 

I have two $5 Indian Heads. One is the coin in question, the other is a known genuine $5 Indian Head. They’re both raw. Immersing them in water has me a little worried, but so what.

 

Equipment

• Small digital scale that reads to 1/1000th of a gram
  
• Measuring cup that has a pour spout so that water doesn’t drip down the side when transferred to another container
  
• Room temperature water
  
• A small collection beaker, that can be tared on the scale
  
• Dish detergent
  
• Paper towels

Hypothesis

 

I want to know if the coin in question is within 95% of the volume of the known genuine coin. Better than 95% would be better, but a 95% threshold to start is Ok. If I get within 95%, plus or minus, then I’ll be satisfied that their volumes are identical.

 

Afterwards I’ll follow up and see if their weights are the same using the digital scale. (Does the coin in question come within 95% weight, plus or minus, of the known genuine coin?)

 

Method

• Set up the digital scale, the measuring cup, and the small collection beaker such that when the measuring cup overflows by even a drop of water, that drop will fall into the collection beaker that has been tared to zero on top of the digital scale.
  
• To room temperature water, cut the surface tension of the water by mixing in a drop of dish detergent. (like one drop per liter)
  
• Place in the bottom of the measuring cup a folded paper towel. (so that when the coin is dropped in it won’t get dinged whatsoever)
  
• Fill the measuring cup to the brim with the low-surface-tension water so that a drop or two overflows into the collection beaker on the digital scale. Tare the scale to zero to ignore this meaningless overflow-water.
  
• Immerse the genuine $5 Indian Head coin, dropping it into the measuring cup and record the weight of water displaced.
  
• Repeat this procedure 4 more times with the genuine coin. Do everything exactly the same.
  
• Then, in a like manner, perform the same procedure on the $5 Indian Head coin in question, obtaining 5 new measurements.

For their weight comparison, for each, obtain 5 separate direct weighings.

 

Get the averages of their volumes, assuming water at 1 g/mL.

Get the averages of their weights.

 

Divide the averages of the coin in question, both volume and weight, by the corresponding averages of the genuine $5 Indian Head volume and weight.

 

Is the result for the comparisons within 5% of the genuine $5 Indian Head?

 

Done.

 

Now, technically you would need reliability and repeatability data for the genuine $5 Indian Head coin. This would mean doing this whole procedure on several (maybe 5) different, known genuine $5 Indian Head coins.

 

The statistics can also be bewildering too, something right out of a Six Sigma course.

 

But, when you look at all of this work, which only addresses weight and volume, and not other characteristics, like coin appearance, I get the feeling that Nutmeg Coin saved himself a lot of trouble by simply sending the coin off to NGC for their grading and authentication expertise.

 

Anyway, just thought I’d have fun with this volume and weight problem. As can be seen, it’s one thing to suggest it is easy to do something, and quite another to actually do it, and then have certainty of your findings.

[Insider]

Check for proper volume.

 

So, you're supposed to take your $5 Indian Head that you bought, and determine its volume by immersing it in a beaker of… water?

 

And the result you derive will assure you that the volume will help you determine that the $5 Indian Head is genuine or fake?

 

I’ve never heard of anyone doing this, but I have a lot to learn. This would be my approach:

 

Is the result for the comparisons within 5% of the genuine $5 Indian Head?

Now, technically you would need reliability and repeatability data for the genuine $5 Indian Head coin. This would mean doing this whole procedure on several (maybe 5) different, known genuine $5 Indian Head coins.

 

Anyway, just thought I’d have fun with this volume and weight problem. As can be seen, it’s one thing to suggest it is easy to do something, and quite another to actually do it, and then have certainty of your findings.

 

...I'll have some fun here also:

 

Thanks for a nice post about a SPECIFIC GRAVITY TEST.

 

Unfortunately, this test has been rarely helpful to determine the authenticity of US coins since the late 1970's! Virtually any coin that does not pass the test can be authenticated by a professional authenticator using just his unaided eyes!

 

This test is still commonly used on several coin types such as Chinese crowns, Pesos and 8 Reales.

 

In the

[thebeav]

Volume is only a measure of size. Any coin the correct size will displace the same volume. One diagnostic for gold coins is correct material, ie. .900 fine gold. In order to determine this, you need to compute the specific gravity. This is determined by comparing the weight of a coin to the weight of that coin under water.

 

Paul

[physics-fan3.14]

I'm also going to ask for the $25 grading fee refunded as that was their job, obviously I am out shipping and aggravation but to get the original non-negotiated price plus grading is reasonable.

 

Update: I called them and then got there before closing time and my money was refunded plus the grading fee.

 

That coin would have certainly fooled me, from your pictures. There is a reason I stick to NGC or PCGS coins for series I am unfamiliar with.

 

But, it is good the store refunded you. That is exactly what I would have expected.

[BillJones]

One thing that jumped out at me was the reverse. "United" is too far the right of the rim while "America" is on the rim. Also the feathers on the eagle's shoulder should be defined given that the coin looked to be Mint State.

[thebeav]

But, it is good the store refunded you. That is exactly what I would have expected.

 

Sloat's is great.....There's no way that they would goof with anyone.

I used to deal with Sam regularly, back in the day. God rest his soul....

 

Paul

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Paul, I took a look this morning at the SG video you posted the other day.

 

Still wrapping my mind around the technique.

 

The testing should have more details as there are a lot of inherent assumptions being made, but the video did demonstrate the technique quite well, at least.

 

Immediately afterwards another YouTube video queued up, by one SalivateMetal, whom another commenter commented that he sounded like he was talking through a toilet paper tube. (an apt description)

 

SalivateMetal did SG tests on separate silver and copper coins (rounds), which were both "Indians," but obviously not US Mint manufactured, so no harm, no foul, to show the huge difference between their specific gravities.

 

Everyone commenting praised and praised SalivateMetal for his video, though I thought it was crude, but still educational.

 

However, two other commenters did have an interesting back and forth, which went as follows:

 

cswann8 9 months ago (edited)

+Cull Silver A much more reliable test is to swear at your silver using lots of vulgar language, then put it under your pillow when you go to bed. If it's still there in the morning, it's real. Fake silver will not put up with verbal abuse and will leave.

 

Cull Silver 9 months ago

+cswann8

Excellent tip, I will try that tonight! 

 

[thebeav]

The one I read said to leave it in the driveway when you go to bed. I did and it was gone.....Must have been fake.....