Any expert gold graders here?

[Lucky One]

ARE there any gold experts in the room? I'd like to get your opinion of grade on this coin. The only clue I'll give is that it is in a straight grade slab.

 

Person who guesses right on gets a big cigar!

[clarkbar04]

Not an expert but I'll throw out fiddy-five.

[Danye West]

58

[Lucky One]

you're both close to what my wife and I think but I'll wait until a few more weigh in before I reveal the slab...

[Lucky One]

58

 

I love your half dollars, always was a sucker for beautiful toning!

[AHFreak]

MS65

 

[Zebo]

61 or 62 - if its a recent grading - I'll go with a 62. Not my series.

[bsshog40]

Yea I would have to go with a ms63. I have a 1910 in 62, and without seeing luster, yours looks fairly close in detail to mine but with a little less nics. Of course, I'm far from a gold expert.

[KMAG100]

Not familiar with this series, so not sure where there may be softness in strike, but the cheek and the wing looks to have wear spots to me, which would lead me to a 58. If the coin got a MS grade than Id go 63

[Lucky One]

Not familiar with this series, so not sure where there may be softness in strike, but the cheek and the wing looks to have wear spots to me, which would lead me to a 58. If the coin got a MS grade than Id go 63

 

we looked at this and thought the same thing. I am a very experienced grader, learned from a lot of old school pros long before 'professional' grading came about. First, I do not own the coin and have not seen it in person, but I am in such a remote location that even minor coin shows are a hundred mile drive or more, so we (wife) see a lot of mail order coins. To avoid wasting time and money, we've become very good at reading photos. That is why I put this out to the rest of you- we're all on the same playing field because all we have to go on are the photos, which could be the reason grades offered here are all over the place.

 

That all said, the coin has also been CAC'd, which is why I'm flabbergasted about the grade. Yes, the photos could be poor, but the luster shows well in the photo while the coin appears to have obvious wear, and in the same areas there appears to be what I like to call circulation crud. If you see one or the other on a coin, it doesn't mean the coin circulated but could have been poorly handled or picked up off a restaraunt table and saved with some crud on it many years ago, but when you see what appears to be wear *and* crud in the same areas, well, it sends up flags for me. Not having it in my hand prevents me from saying this was another mistake, but looking at it, anyone good at reading photos online to decide whether to take the chance at if would pass no matter what imho, at least on a coin listed at such a high price.

 

I'll give this a few more days and then show you the slab and grade. Thanks to all for offering your own opinions, I guessed we'd see a wide range and I'd say that AU55 to MS65 is as wide as you can get...

[tommy44]

I only have one Indian quarter eagle, a 1929 in a NGC MS64 slab, so I'm no expert on this hard to grade series. Based on the details of the feathers on the eagles left shoulder and the flat spots on the high points of the Indians headdress closest to the surface when compared to my example I'd guess 55 or 58. Looks like it may have a flat spot on the cheek also.

 

Since there is no raised rim on the coin I suppose the design detail could show what looks like wear from stacking or sliding around in a coin cabinet but again, using my 1929 as a base I'll still say 55 or 58.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I'd guess 62, reminds me of one I sold. Cheek of Indian is not wear.

[johnny9434]

ill go ms 62 as well.

[AHFreak]

I'd guess 62, reminds me of one I sold. Cheek of Indian is not wear.

 

This is correct. The high points on these coins are opposite of what you would think, the fields are where you first see wear on 2.5 dollar Indians.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Here was one I sold: http://i.imgur.com/84YVr5c.jpg http://i.imgur.com/6S4d2YN.jpg

 

First time around it came back "improperly cleaned". It had been in an old PCI green 63 holder. I put it in my WR style holder for several weeks of sun exposure, resubmitted, got the 62 and sold it at market though I was losing significant money.

 

The question on the gtg coin is whether the light friction would be seen as wear by grading.

[coinman1794]

The coin seems to show actual wear on the high points of both sides. That said, it is not possible to see if luster is broken over those same flat spots, because of the stationary image. The possibility exists that a flat strike with friction, dirt, and grime are to blame for the appearance of wear in the images.

 

The coin shows the details of an AU58, so with nothing more to go on, that is the grade I will chose. It has several marks in the fields, and this can limit an otherwise 58 coin to 55 in some instances.

[coinman1794]

OK, having seen the results, an MS62 grade is consistent with a coin that shows friction on the high points, but does not have broken or dulled luster. Again, it all comes down to luster, which we can't see here.

[tommy44]

I'd guess 62, reminds me of one I sold. Cheek of Indian is not wear.

 

I meant what appears to be a flat "cheek bone" which looks to me to be the part of the Indian head nearest the surface, not the actual cheek which is well below the surface..

[Afterword]

MS-63.

[MarkFeld]

MS64, but I would have guessed lower had the word "flabbergasted" not been used.

[Lucky One]

MS64, but I would have guessed lower had the word "flabbergasted" not been used.

 

Glad to see someone picked up on that extreme adverb, it was another clue. I'll post the photo of the slab in a minute...

[Lucky One]

A lot of great responses and all good arguments. I wish I had this in my hand so I could see the 'wear' because I am fairly good at grading these. I own a bunch of them and have always been fascinated with them, and to tell you the truth, just about anyone familiar with grading and the high points of a coin can grade these, just not by a photo.

 

To be fair to the graders at PCGS & CAC and the seller of this coin I will say that there is no way to grade this coin honestly or accurately based on 2D photos alone. I have a lot of experience photographing coins, even if I'm not all that great at it- I've sold off a half million dollar collection over the past five years and photographed thousands of coins over that time. One thing I learned is that light hitting a coin at a low angle will cast shadows that can look like wear on a coin like the incused relief Indian quarter and half eagles, but for some reason, it is more pronounced on the quarter eagles. While this coin appears to be AU all the way, it could be a trick of the lens. I would ask the dealer but without holding it in our own hands, it's still just another opinion, professional or not, so we can assume he has ethics and agrees with the grade as well.

 

Judging by the fact that both PCGS, CAC and the current owner believe it to be mint state, we have to assume it is properly graded. This has been an exercise in personal perceptions and it is obvious how much those perceptions vary based on how much experience a person has and how objective he's willing to be. But if I had to go on the photo alone, I'd pass in a heart beat simply because it fails my two hit rule for mail order via photograph- it looks like it has wear on it AND it has circulation crud in the recesses only at the high points. Could it be coincidental and just a mistake? Absolutely- I have seen enough AU's in mint state slabs, some as high as MS64, so obviously clerical mistakes happen.

 

Thanks for all the responses, good to see everyone here is paying attention! And sorry, but looks like I'll have to cut that cigar into pieces since so many said MS63!

[MarkFeld]

A lot of great responses and all good arguments. I wish I had this in my hand so I could see the 'wear' because I am fairly good at grading these. I own a bunch of them and have always been fascinated with them, and to tell you the truth, just about anyone familiar with grading and the high points of a coin can grade these, just not by a photo.

 

To be fair to the graders at PCGS & CAC and the seller of this coin I will say that there is no way to grade this coin honestly or accurately based on 2D photos alone. I have a lot of experience photographing coins, even if I'm not all that great at it- I've sold off a half million dollar collection over the past five years and photographed thousands of coins over that time. One thing I learned is that light hitting a coin at a low angle will cast shadows that can look like wear on a coin like the incused relief Indian quarter and half eagles, but for some reason, it is more pronounced on the quarter eagles. While this coin appears to be AU all the way, it could be a trick of the lens. I would ask the dealer but without holding it in our own hands, it's still just another opinion, professional or not, so we can assume he has ethics and agrees with the grade as well.

 

Judging by the fact that both PCGS, CAC and the current owner believe it to be mint state, we have to assume it is properly graded. This has been an exercise in personal perceptions and it is obvious how much those perceptions vary based on how much experience a person has and how objective he's willing to be. But if I had to go on the photo alone, I'd pass in a heart beat simply because it fails my two hit rule for mail order via photograph- it looks like it has wear on it AND it has circulation crud in the recesses only at the high points. Could it be coincidental and just a mistake? Absolutely- I have seen enough AU's in mint state slabs, some as high as MS64, so obviously clerical mistakes happen.

 

Thanks for all the responses, good to see everyone here is paying attention! And sorry, but looks like I'll have to cut that cigar into pieces since so many said MS63!

 

As I mentioned previously, I wouldn't have graded the coin MS64 without the hint. However, prior to that, I had been vascillating between MS62 and MS63. In other words, it looks uncirculated to me, despite the areas of weakness.

 

What do you mean by "circulation crud" and where do you see it?

[Lucky One]

As I mentioned previously, I wouldn't have graded the coin MS64 without the hint. However, prior to that, I had been vascillating between MS62 and MS63. In other words, it looks uncirculated to me, despite the areas of weakness.

 

What do you mean by "circulation crud" and where do you see it?

 

circulation crud is what would be picked up from work, or a table or sloppy fingers at a restarant or dinner table. It is usually a greasy black (not to be confused with the carbon you sometimes see on these- factory workers added a lot of black grease to circulating coins over the years and you can actually analyze the residue and see the petroleum in it) or any number of colors if it was food residue. On an Indian quarter or half eagle, it accumulated in the headband first on obv and the eagle's feathers most often like this coin shows, but it can be found in the recesses of the legends too. This coin shows either circulation crud in those areas or just a discoloration, or maybe it is shadowing from the photography. No matter, I would never lock in someone else's opinion without putting my diamond loupe to it first, I'm surprised at what gets missed by the TPGs.

 

By the way- I thought the exact opposite- the 'shady' areas look like actual wear to me, that is a tell-tale sign if I ever saw one, but I will probably never see the coin so I'll never know. If anyone knows the owner and can take a peek at it for an objective evaluation, it would be useful.