Why do ....

[TonerGuy]

Ebay sellers/cosigners put up toned coins on Ebay with a ridiculous BIN price ? Hahahah

 

I just have to laugh at what some people think their toners are worth...

 

Just start it at .99 and let the market decide the coin's value. If you overpaid, learn your lesson, take your lumps and move on to the next coin... If you want the greatest return send the coin to Krypto or Great Toning. They have the best potential market basis.

 

Even in this "down" market some sellers are in the stratosphere when it comes to toners.

 

[SunriseW]

I suspect it's the same reason we get spam in our e-mail. The vast majority of the time, no one will fall for it, but it costs nothing for the sender to send or for the lister to list, and on the rare occasion when someone falls for it, it was worth doing all along (moral considerations notwithstanding).

[e1cnr]

Why is it that some eBay buyers feel they know what the price should be? I have had one person send me offers a couple times a week offering half of what I want on a couple coins at the same price as the white straight from mint packaging value.

 

As far as auctions go starting at 1 cent - it is extremely difficult to do anything but lose money with your plan - too many taking their cut - eBay, Paypal, USPS, and the consignment people.

[Kapimono]

Toner Guy, I'm with you 100%. I'd take it one step further though...probably half of ALL buy it now listings are extremely overpriced. And I'm not going to shed a tear over fees associated with ebay, paypal and the usps. There's a cost to use their services, and they're a bargain considering what you get in accessibility and security. To make a short story long, auctions set market value, not unrealistic sellers that are underwater on a bad purchase. And does anyone find it unfortunate that now only 10% of all Ebay coin listings are auction format...that's it. All the rest are stagnant buy it now or fresh from the mint overpriced bullion. How about we throw MAC coins in the mix?

[coinman_23885]

While I think many segments of the market are not doing well, I would disagree with you insofar as the toned market is concerned - at least with regards to coins with exceptional eye appeal. I have moved several pieces at prices that I was happy with. Both the buyer and seller were happy, which is always my goal. And I do feel that the pieces I sold were quality pieces that will appreciate through time rather than being liquidated at cheap prices. I have been amazed at the number of serious inquiries that I have received for a number of my pieces. Although I hate eBay as a company, I must admit that it is a good venue to sell in this market.

 

Collectors that buy cheap coins as "bargains" often learn the hard way that cheaper is not always better. Two coins in the same grade level can sell for drastically different prices. And those "bargains" may be sour grapes that don't do any better with age. Collectors of phenomenal eye appeal will step up for the right coin. Since there is no intent to immediately resell for a collector, one interested in building a top set should buy with the future in mind and the future market rather than worrying about the current market. I also think that the current market prices are not reflective of the true market - there is a dearth of quality coins and what you are seeing are the leftovers that rightfully trade at discounts in many cases. IMHO, the market still alive and thriving for the most eye appealing coins.

 

And with regards to the BIN-OBO listing, you do not know what offers the seller has received prior to listing the coin for sale. I have turned down very strong money, only to list it and sell it for moon money to a knowledgeable collector (i.e. one who has been doing it for a long time and understands and appreciates eye appeal). I have posted coins at strong prices, only to find that someone clicks the BIN option and then sells it for more. That is the nature of the game. A toned coin is worth what someone will pay for it. If the sellers you are referencing are anything like me, they bought the coin because they liked it and don't mind holding on to it and holding out for the right offer.

 

You also missed one other potential benefit: Regardless of whether an overpriced coin sells, if it generates threads and attention, it serves as an extremely effective marketing tool to draw collectors to an eBay seller's other listings/store.

[coinman_23885]

Why is it that some eBay buyers feel they know what the price should be? I have had one person send me offers a couple times a week offering half of what I want on a couple coins at the same price as the white straight from mint packaging value.

 

As far as auctions go starting at 1 cent - it is extremely difficult to do anything but lose money with your plan - too many taking their cut - eBay, Paypal, USPS, and the consignment people.

 

Words of wisdom... +1

[TonerGuy]

While I think many segments of the market are not doing well, I would disagree with you insofar as the toned market is concerned - at least with regards to coins with exceptional eye appeal. I have moved several pieces at prices that I was happy with. Both the buyer and seller were happy, which is always my goal. And I do feel that the pieces I sold were quality pieces that will appreciate through time rather than being liquidated at cheap prices. I have been amazed at the number of serious inquiries that I have received for a number of my pieces. Although I hate eBay as a company, I must admit that it is a good venue to sell in this market.

 

Collectors that buy cheap coins as "bargains" often learn the hard way that cheaper is not always better. Two coins in the same grade level can sell for drastically different prices. And those "bargains" may be sour grapes that don't do any better with age. Collectors of phenomenal eye appeal will step up for the right coin. Since there is no intent to immediately resell for a collector, one interested in building a top set should buy with the future in mind and the future market rather than worrying about the current market. I also think that the current market prices are not reflective of the true market - there is a dearth of quality coins and what you are seeing are the leftovers that rightfully trade at discounts in many cases. IMHO, the market still alive and thriving for the most eye appealing coins.

 

And with regards to the BIN-OBO listing, you do not know what offers the seller has received prior to listing the coin for sale. I have turned down very strong money, only to list it and sell it for moon money to a knowledgeable collector (i.e. one who has been doing it for a long time and understands and appreciates eye appeal). I have posted coins at strong prices, only to find that someone clicks the BIN option and then sells it for more. That is the nature of the game. A toned coin is worth what someone will pay for it. If the sellers you are referencing are anything like me, they bought the coin because they liked it and don't mind holding on to it and holding out for the right offer.

 

You also missed one other potential benefit: Regardless of whether an overpriced coin sells, if it generates threads and attention, it serves as an extremely effective marketing tool to draw collectors to an eBay seller's other listings/store.

 

I suppose if you take the PT Barnum approach - there is a sucker born every minute.

 

I simply do not agree with the statement that the toner market is strong. I speak to several show only, toned only, dealers that keep complaining about how they can barely move toned coins at shows now. And these guys have a huge inventory of beautiful coins with exorbitant prices.

 

I asked one dealer why not lower your prices ? Im standing there with money and ready to make an offer on several coins but they are just too buried in their coins to move on the price. And BTW this is a dealer I have bought numerous coins in the past from.

 

If you're a toned coin dealer and you're buried in most of your coins, you're doing it wrong.

 

Can you please show me your coins with "phenomenal eye appeal" that have sold recently (last 6 months) for premium prices with links to the prices the coins have sold for ?

 

Its very easy for a seller like yourself to make claims and then show no actual proof of such... in sales its called puffery. It creates an illusion that somehow your coins are better since other "more experienced and knowledgeable collectors" are willing to pay up for them. Im only calling you out since you decided to step into the this thread and posted your opinion.

 

You're not the only dealer doing this though...

 

Anyone can put up a BIN-OBO and then take a low price and then claim that he's gotten moon money for his coins on a forum.

 

I think overall it hurts the market, hurts the hobby and the niche of toned coins. To have a future customer they often have to be a new customer.

 

Not every toned coin is a monster, moose, crazy rainbow ect and should not be priced as such...

 

If a seller knows what he has is a Monster Toner then let it go to auction with no reserve, let the market decide. He will get his price. If you consistently find that the auction prices are much less then what you were expecting - you're overvaluing your coins.

[coinman_23885]

I suppose if you take the PT Barnum approach - there is a sucker born every minute.

 

I disagree. There are plenty of coins that have upside potential. I will not disclose the specifics (i.e. price/identity) of a transaction with a forum member, but I recently sold a phenomenal Walking Liberty Half Dollar that I think has upside potential. If that poster chooses to comment with details, he can do so but I will not. I treat those transactions as private and they are executed in a private environment.

 

I asked one dealer why not lower your prices ? Im standing there with money and ready to make an offer on several coins but they are just too buried in their coins to move on the price. And BTW this is a dealer I have bought numerous coins in the past from.

 

You assume that the dealer is buried. Why is this? Some dealers are like me and appreciate the "neat" factor and eye appeal that some coins have. They are willing to sit on a coin and enjoy it for the time being until the right buyer comes along.

 

It seems to me that there are coins that you really like and are pissed that the seller won't sell them to you at a price that you want. It is bizarre to me that you feel entitled to buy coins at YOUR price and that everyone should cave in and meet your demands. Should I be allowed to cherry pick your holdings and demand that you sell me the nicest pieces at prices that I determine based on arbitrary and subjective factors that I decide are dispositive? The coin market isn't a communistic or socialistic enterprise. These are luxury items that we are talking about. And no, none of my comments should be construed as a personal attack on you; they are not meant as such.

 

Can you please show me your coins with "phenomenal eye appeal" that have sold recently (last 6 months) for premium prices with links to the prices the coins have sold for ?

 

Its very easy for a seller like yourself to make claims and then show no actual proof of such... in sales its called puffery. It creates an illusion that somehow your coins are better since other "more experienced and knowledgeable collectors" are willing to pay up for them. Im only calling you out since you decided to step into the this thread and posted your opinion.

 

PM sent. I will not disclose recent listings or listings with offers pending in a public forum. And I will only discuss what I am authorized to share. I take my customers' privacy seriously. Among the coins that I sent, I would consider the one dollar to be a true monster as is the quarter that I cited. The others are not monsters, but I think the coins sold at fair prices and prices that I believe undermine the notion of the toned coin market being in poor shape. The buyer isn't buried in them, but it isn't the fire sale price that I think you seem to expect in this market.

 

You're not the only dealer doing this though...

 

I wouldn't describe myself as a dealer quite yet, but that is where I am headed. I would say "prospective" dealer. In fact, I anticipate starting a dealership or auction house some time next year. For personal reasons I am liquidating the vast majority of my personal holdings, but will probably not allow my enjoyment and knowledge of coins go to waste. Not to spam, but maybe you should consign to me. I promise not to fire sale your pieces in a venue where they could sell as low as $1 unless a signed waiver is included.

 

Anyone can put up a BIN-OBO and then take a low price and then claim that he's gotten moon money for his coins on a forum.

 

See the PM. If you disagree with me after that, that's fine. But I think you would be hard pressed to say that the offer on the dollar wasn't very strong and that the other coin didn't do well. The other examples are also strong IMHO. Call them whatever you wish. Keep in mind that I only recently started selling on eBay again and most of my other examples are private treaty sales that will stay private. I do think I provided more than enough to make my point.

 

I think overall it hurts the market, hurts the hobby and the niche of toned coins. To have a future customer they often have to be a new customer.

 

Yes. How dare us sellers enter into transactions with competent, consenting adults that fully understand what they are getting themselves into and do so willingly? There are price guides and all of the coins I am referencing are certified. A toning premium can be quickly calculated. It isn't like I am misrepresenting the coin or juicing my images. If that was the case, you would be correct to complain.

 

 

Not every toned coin is a monster, moose, crazy rainbow ect and should not be priced as such...

 

I agree. Not every coin I sell is a monster, but when one presents itself, I will not let it go for an insanely cheap price. There are coins that I think would be difficult to replace, and I price them accordingly. I am sure other eBay sellers do the same. It is very rare that true monsters are offered, and perhaps your view of the toned coin market is skewed by the more common attractive coins (but not monster quality coins) that command smaller premiums.

 

If a seller knows what he has is a Monster Toner then let it go to auction with no reserve, let the market decide. He will get his price. If you consistently find that the auction prices are much less then what you were expecting - you're overvaluing your coins.

 

Would you sell your home or car at an auction for $1 with no reserve? I have a significant amount of cash invested in my holdings which I very much liked when I purchased them (and still do), but am choosing to liquidate them. Why would I approach such a financial decision any differently than I would for the sale of a home or car?

[e1cnr]

If a seller knows what he has is a Monster Toner then let it go to auction with no reserve, let the market decide. He will get his price. If you consistently find that the auction prices are much less then what you were expecting - you're overvaluing your coins.

 

That happens when people consign to big auctions with live viewing. eBay is a shoot with picture quality and many auctions basically show the wholesale price. I have no objection buying eye appealing attractively toned coins on eBay at wholesale prices (usually from sellers that do not know what they have). I just do not like selling them that way.

[Raisethis2]

I think a lot of collectors wouldn't know great toning if it bit them in the a** so when they have a coin with any toning they opt for "moon money" hoping the coin suits the bill for someone. Only after a few cycles do they understand that they're not going to sell it at the price being asked.

 

Either they put it away or blow it out in another fashion once they're convinced.

 

 

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Ebay sellers/cosigners put up toned coins on Ebay with a ridiculous BIN price ? Hahahah

 

I just have to laugh at what some people think their toners are worth...

 

Just start it at .99 and let the market decide the coin's value. If you overpaid, learn your lesson, take your lumps and move on to the next coin... If you want the greatest return send the coin to Krypto or Great Toning. They have the best potential market basis.

 

Even in this "down" market some sellers are in the stratosphere when it comes to toners.

 

 

Just to debate

 

There are deals to be had on ebay and perhaps the seller doesn't want to give the buyer a great deal.

 

Consider this.

 

In and around 1989 GM made Olds Toronado's with these nifty Visual Information Center touch screens which controlled all kinds of stuff and gave some basic diagnostic advice. In any given week only a few need to change hands. Put one up for $.01 and there is maybe a 5% it will sell for $.01 or $20 just because not that many people know it exists. Put a working one up for $400 and you might just get $400.

[coinman1794]

Ebay sellers/cosigners put up toned coins on Ebay with a ridiculous BIN price ? Hahahah

 

I just have to laugh at what some people think their toners are worth...

 

Just start it at .99 and let the market decide the coin's value. If you overpaid, learn your lesson, take your lumps and move on to the next coin... If you want the greatest return send the coin to Krypto or Great Toning. They have the best potential market basis.

 

Even in this "down" market some sellers are in the stratosphere when it comes to toners.

 

 

That's just it....it's impossible to know just what the market will bare on great toners, but you have to start somewhere. They can and do go through the roof in auction sometimes. If you know what you are doing, and you have sunk a large premium into a piece because you believe its worthwhile, someone else is probably going to agree with you, but that party may or may not be bidding in a 99C action that week. Premium coins are much better off at fixed prices; and you can add make-an-offer if you insist on charging what you think is full retail-plus.

[TonerGuy]

I think a lot of collectors wouldn't know great toning if it bit them in the a** so when they have a coin with any toning they opt for "moon money" hoping the coin suits the bill for someone.

 

I think this applies to dealers as well. A specialist collector will have much more experience than any dealer in his respective area.

 

 

 

You assume that the dealer is buried. Why is this? Some dealers are like me and appreciate the "neat" factor and eye appeal that some coins have. They are willing to sit on a coin and enjoy it for the time being until the right buyer comes along.

 

No actually he told me he was buried and then went on to complain about the past several shows and how he has struggled to meet the costs of just the table. This dealer has hundreds of toners, I dont really think he's sitting there enjoying his coins as he wastes his time and money trying to sell them.

 

It seems to me that there are coins that you really like and are pissed that the seller won't sell them to you at a price that you want. It is bizarre to me that you feel entitled to buy coins at YOUR price and that everyone should cave in and meet your demands.

 

Wrong. I didnt need his coins. I dont feel entitled to anything. Im not pissed about not having a coin. Thats silly.

 

Should I be allowed to cherry pick your holdings and demand that you sell me the nicest pieces at prices that I determine based on arbitrary and subjective factors that I decide are dispositive? The coin market isn't a communistic or socialistic enterprise. These are luxury items that we are talking about. And no, none of my comments should be construed as a personal attack on you; they are not meant as such.

 

And there is the problem...there are no price guides for toners. And every time I or someone else suggest something like that - the sellers turn on that person and say its impossible.

 

I wonder why its impossible for a collector to determine a good price but its not acceptable to question a dealer about his prices ? The only reason I can speculate is that the dealer 1) knows how much he paid for the coin and 2) understands how much profit he wants to make. And therefore that should be the price of the coin, no matter how unrelated to the actual market forces that price might be.

 

PM sent. I will not disclose recent listings or listings with offers pending in a public forum. And I will only discuss what I am authorized to share. I take my customers' privacy seriously.

 

Why the reason for secrecy ? This is the issue that I have with BIN-OBOs. You state you're protecting your client's privacy. Im not asking who bought what from you. Im merely asking for raw data on sales price. What's the secret in that ? Even the large auctions (Heritage, Stack's Bowers ect) houses that privately place a rare unique coin will state the price it sold for but leave the identity of the buyer private. Why does that not apply to toned coins ?

 

Unless its not the buyer you are trying to keep a secret but rather the price.

 

I wouldn't describe myself as a dealer quite yet, but that is where I am headed.

 

You're a dealer now...in this thread.

 

See the PM.

 

I wont reveal what you have shared. Though I do think that if you did it might help the toner market.

 

How dare us sellers enter into transactions with competent, consenting adults that fully understand what they are getting themselves into and do so willingly? There are price guides and all of the coins I am referencing are certified. A toning premium can be quickly calculated.

 

A toning premium can quickly be calculated based on price guides ?

 

By who ? A seller ? When a collector tries he's told that's a ridiculous idea to try and come up with a standardized price guide for toners. There are too many variables.

 

And the competent part is deceiving. By competent do you mean an adult of 18 yrs old that is not mentally deficient ? Or do you mean someone that has studied that segment of the toned coin market for years and understand the nuances of pricing ?

 

Competency is subjective. I can price toned Peace $ all day long. I couldnt even take a stab at what a toned Roosie FT NGC * coin is MS67 would sell for - without going to do some auction research across EBay, Great Collections, Stacks, Heritage ect.

 

Not every coin I sell is a monster, but when one presents itself, I will not let it go for an insanely cheap price. There are coins that I think would be difficult to replace, and I price them accordingly. I am sure other eBay sellers do the same. It is very rare that true monsters are offered, and perhaps your view of the toned coin market is skewed by the more common attractive coins (but not monster quality coins) that command smaller premiums.

 

Monster is again a subjective term. And also open to interpretation based on experience. Your idea of a monster toned Morgan would be lost on me since I dont collect toned Morgans. However, your idea of a monster toned Morgan might be skewed by the fact that you havent been dealing in Monster toned Morgans for 50 years. Monsters from 50 years may rarely come to market now and thus the available toned Morgans might be B level coins while the A+ coins sit in an experienced collector's hands until he passes.

 

Would you sell your home or car at an auction for $1 with no reserve? I have a significant amount of cash invested in my holdings which I very much liked when I purchased them (and still do), but am choosing to liquidate them. Why would I approach such a financial decision any differently than I would for the sale of a home or car?

 

With the sale of a home or a car (assuming its not a collector car or a home designed by Frank Lloyd Wright) I can - as a seller or buyer - run comps on the properties in the area or turn to a Kelly Blue Book and have a basis to figure out the correct price.

 

And alas there is no such thing when it comes to the pricing of toned coins.

 

And that really is the basis for the origins of this thread...

 

I think that the problem with toned coins is that there's no acceptable bench mark to price them against. Auction sales reports are really the only way. Finally I would like to see more collectors become toned coin specialists and I believe the inflated prices either 1) keep newb collectors from buying toned coins in general or 2) if they buy them based on the biased statements "experienced" of sellers and then they lose $ on the coin when it hits an auction they won't buy anymore. That is bad for all of us that are here for the long term.

 

[mumu]

It's amazing when those BINs don't budge for 5+ years.

[brg5658]

How dare us sellers enter into transactions with competent, consenting adults that fully understand what they are getting themselves into and do so willingly? There are price guides and all of the coins I am referencing are certified. A toning premium can be quickly calculated.

A toning premium can quickly be calculated based on price guides ?

 

By who ? A seller ? When a collector tries he's told that's a ridiculous idea to try and come up with a standardized price guide for toners. There are too many variables.

 

And the competent part is deceiving. By competent do you mean an adult of 18 yrs old that is not mentally deficient ? Or do you mean someone that has studied that segment of the toned coin market for years and understand the nuances of pricing ?

 

Competency is subjective. I can price toned Peace $ all day long. I couldnt even take a stab at what a toned Roosie FT NGC * coin is MS67 would sell for - without going to do some auction research across EBay, Great Collections, Stacks, Heritage ect.

 

Kenny, I have to call you on this one. You know very well that a toning premium cannot be "quickly calculated" based on price guides.

 

I have purchased fantastically toned coins at below price guide, and I have seen Morgans sell (e.g., the David Hall coins through Legend) for 100x price guide -- recall than 1882-S Morgan that sold for $14,000 with guide of $140. Tell me then, how does one "quickly calculate" a price premium for toning?

 

I think stagnant inventory toned coins that are priced at what I consider to be too high of a price remain there for one or more of the following reasons.

 

1) Dealer ignorance of the toned market

2) Dealer greed / unsavory sales tactics

3) Lack of dealer visibility to interested collector base

4) Buyer ignorance of the toned market

5) Buyer is a penny-pincher

 

With online sale archives, it is a lot easier for buyers to be informed about the toned market going rates, and to often find exactly what a dealer paid for a coin in his/her inventory. That "leveling of the playing field" between dealers and buyers has cut sharply into the bottom line of dealers. It has also made buyers sometimes feel they are entitled to a coin at XX% above what the dealer paid for the coin.

 

The key is to find the happy middle ground that keeps the dealer happy (and potentially offering more similar coins for your collection), and the buyer feeling that he hasn't been taken for a ride with silly pricing. In the end, if a dealer and buyer can't come to an agreement on a price for a coin, then I guess the dealer just likes the coin in his case better than my money in his pocket. That's his/her prerogative. There will be other coins.

 

 

[TonerGuy]

It's amazing when those BINs don't budge for 5+ years.

 

This is why I could never sell my own coins... I just love them too much. And I suspect that happens to other collectors when they try and sell of their own personal collections. When my collection is sold, when I am dead, it will go to an auction. And if it has to be sold before I die, it will also go to auction.

 

Sometimes it hurts knowing not everyone loves something as much as you do - but that is life.

 

However, I could be a dealer in non-toned, blast white widget coins because in my opinion Im selling a widget nothing more nothing less.

 

Kenny, I have to call you on this one. You know very well that a toning premium cannot be "quickly calculated" based on price guides.

 

I have purchased fantastically toned coins at below price guide, and I have seen Morgans sell (e.g., the David Hall coins through Legend) for 100x price guide -- recall than 1882-S Morgan that sold for $14,000 with guide of $140. Tell me then, how does one "quickly calculate" a price premium for toning?

 

I think stagnant inventory toned coins that are priced at what I consider to be too high of a price remain there for one or more of the following reasons.

 

1) Dealer ignorance of the toned market

2) Dealer greed / unsavory sales tactics

3) Lack of dealer visibility to interested collector base

4) Buyer ignorance of the toned market

5) Buyer is a penny-pincher

 

With online sale archives, it is a lot easier for buyers to be informed about the toned market going rates, and to often find exactly what a dealer paid for a coin in his/her inventory. That "leveling of the playing field" between dealers and buyers has cut sharply into the bottom line of dealers. It has also made buyers sometimes feel they are entitled to a coin at XX% above what the dealer paid for the coin.

 

The key is to find the happy middle ground that keeps the dealer happy (and potentially offering more similar coins for your collection), and the buyer feeling that he hasn't been taken for a ride with silly pricing. In the end, if a dealer and buyer can't come to an agreement on a price for a coin, then I guess the dealer just likes the coin in his case better than my money in his pocket. That's his/her prerogative. There will be other coins.

 

 

I dont see toned coin collectors as being penny-pinching or feel entitled to a coin at XX% above what the dealer paid.

 

All of the toned collectors I know (granted its not all of them) realize that collecting toned coins requires paying up for the right coins.

 

But otherwise I agree with your post.

 

[coinman_23885]

No actually he told me he was buried and then went on to complain about the past several shows and how he has struggled to meet the costs of just the table. This dealer has hundreds of toners, I dont really think he's sitting there enjoying his coins as he wastes his time and money trying to sell them.

 

I didn't realize that you were speaking for one specific dealer as opposed to many dealers (or toned dealers in general); sorry. You are right that if he is buried in a significant number of his holdings, then he doesn't know what he is doing.

 

Why the reason for secrecy ? This is the issue that I have with BIN-OBOs. You state you're protecting your client's privacy. Im not asking who bought what from you. Im merely asking for raw data on sales price. What's the secret in that ? Even the large auctions (Heritage, Stack's Bowers ect) houses that privately place a rare unique coin will state the price it sold for but leave the identity of the buyer private. Why does that not apply to toned coins ?

 

My reasons for the PM rather posting publicly are two-fold:

 

(1) Some of the coins I am basing my comments on were on eBay; however, there are a number of other sales that were directly to collectors. In the case of the latter, I believe that the collector has a reasonable expectation of privacy in the transaction and that it would breach this privacy to publicly disclose the purchase price. In that sense, it is absolutely an issue of customer privacy. And even then, I am very conservative and will only post what I can, still erring on the side of privacy.

 

(2) With regards to eBay BIN-OBOs, you are also on to something there as well. You can clearly see the end date on a few pieces of specific interest. EBay forces a minimum 14 day return privilege if you choose to offer one (and realistically, I would never tell my customers that there is no return privilege on an internet transaction). No matter how many comps I am able to pull, there will always be vocal dissent on coin boards. And I do not want to raise a fuss over specific transactions that could cause a deal to go sour, leaving me with a return. Buyer's remorse is not a reason to return a coin. Coins that are returned sell for less. This is especially true with toned coins, where many buyers assumed that the images did not fairly represent the coin. So to protect myself, I did send you the data so you can see that I am serious and not making it up, but I am also protecting myself from needless headaches.

 

You're a dealer now...in this thread.

 

I would think I would need to be incorporated at least. You could argue that I am approaching this from a dealer's (seller's perspective) though... but I do think it is distinguishable in that most of the coins I am selling now, I did not purchase them as quick flips. With regards to future activities in numismatics, your description would be very accurate.

 

I wont reveal what you have shared. Though I do think that if you did it might help the toner market.

 

Thanks. Hopefully you see that I am genuine in comments that I make even if I am reserved in public disclosure. There can be reasonable disagreements as to pricing, but I hope you would understand why I do not think the toned coin market is dead. I must admit myself had been pessimistic until very recently. Maybe the market is getting better or I am very good at marketing my stuff. Either way, I feel well about it. I do think I was fair in those transactions, and I do NOT believe that any of the purchasers are buried.

 

A toning premium can quickly be calculated based on price guides ?

 

I didn't say a fair toning premium. Rather, what I meant is that the purchaser can roughly estimated the amount of premium for the color where the generic price can be established with reasonable certainty. Let's use a completely made up example. Let's say a generic MS65 Peace Dollar sells for $100, and I sell a toned one for $500. The difference, $400, can be attributable to the toning more than likely. As such, the buyer knows exactly the amount of premium being imputed in the asking price and can then used his or her own subjective criteria (to include personal tastes) and comps in the public record to decide what a fair price is for a toned coin. I will admit, however, that at least for one of my coins (in my very biased perspective), I cannot find any coin with colors that I would consider comparable in the public domain. I openly admit that I winged it. I may get less for my asking price, but I don't think I acted unreasonably. I won't comment on the specific coin for fear of turning this into a spam fest. None of my comments were meant to be self-serving or to serve as a "coinman" promotional. Rather, I tried to interject my experiences and observations. As with anything, your mileage may vary. You understand the concept of small sample size. That is why I think it is unfair to use the word "ridiculous" rather than "optimistic" to some.

 

And the competent part is deceiving. By competent do you mean an adult of 18 yrs old that is not mentally deficient ? Or do you mean someone that has studied that segment of the toned coin market for years and understand the nuances of pricing ?

 

Someone not mentally deficient; an adult of normal intellectual capacity. If one lacks the knowledge, one has the ability to consult with more knowledgeable individuals before entering into an expensive transaction. This is why average people have enough intelligence to hire an attorney to do the closing on their homes - you wouldn't wing that (maybe you would since you are a lawyer, but this is geared towards a larger audience).

 

I can price toned Peace $ all day long.

 

For fun, you can PM me your pricing valuations for the toned Peace Dollars I have listed on the eBay account. I am curious how far apart our standards are. If you choose not to do so, I fully understand.

 

Monster is again a subjective term.

 

Fair enough. I'll PM you a coin and you can tell me whether you think it makes monster status.

[coinman_23885]

Kenny, I have to call you on this one. You know very well that a toning premium cannot be "quickly calculated" based on price guides.

 

I have purchased fantastically toned coins at below price guide, and I have seen Morgans sell (e.g., the David Hall coins through Legend) for 100x price guide -- recall than 1882-S Morgan that sold for $14,000 with guide of $140. Tell me then, how does one "quickly calculate" a price premium for toning?

 

Please read my response to TG; you can easily calculate (more or less) the amount of color premium imputed in the asking price if you can reasonably ascertain the price of the generic. That is what I meant. As with anything else, when entering into a contract, you use due diligence.

 

With regards to the coins you list, I think many of the coins TG is complaining about are well within the 100x mark, so it is truly an issue of subjectivity. Berating a dealer for trying (in light of multiple extremely high auction records - there are multiple transactions in the "stratosphere" as some would phrase it) seems unfair to me.

[brg5658]

It's amazing when those BINs don't budge for 5+ years.

 

This is why I could never sell my own coins... I just love them too much. And I suspect that happens to other collectors when they try and sell of their own personal collections. When my collection is sold, when I am dead, it will go to an auction. And if it has to be sold before I die, it will also go to auction.

 

Sometimes it hurts knowing not everyone loves something as much as you do - but that is life.

 

However, I could be a dealer in non-toned, blast white widget coins because in my opinion Im selling a widget nothing more nothing less.

 

Kenny, I have to call you on this one. You know very well that a toning premium cannot be "quickly calculated" based on price guides.

 

I have purchased fantastically toned coins at below price guide, and I have seen Morgans sell (e.g., the David Hall coins through Legend) for 100x price guide -- recall than 1882-S Morgan that sold for $14,000 with guide of $140. Tell me then, how does one "quickly calculate" a price premium for toning?

 

I think stagnant inventory toned coins that are priced at what I consider to be too high of a price remain there for one or more of the following reasons.

 

1) Dealer ignorance of the toned market

2) Dealer greed / unsavory sales tactics

3) Lack of dealer visibility to interested collector base

4) Buyer ignorance of the toned market

5) Buyer is a penny-pincher

 

With online sale archives, it is a lot easier for buyers to be informed about the toned market going rates, and to often find exactly what a dealer paid for a coin in his/her inventory. That "leveling of the playing field" between dealers and buyers has cut sharply into the bottom line of dealers. It has also made buyers sometimes feel they are entitled to a coin at XX% above what the dealer paid for the coin.

 

The key is to find the happy middle ground that keeps the dealer happy (and potentially offering more similar coins for your collection), and the buyer feeling that he hasn't been taken for a ride with silly pricing. In the end, if a dealer and buyer can't come to an agreement on a price for a coin, then I guess the dealer just likes the coin in his case better than my money in his pocket. That's his/her prerogative. There will be other coins.

 

I dont see toned coin collectors as being penny-pinching or feel entitled to a coin at XX% above what the dealer paid.

 

All of the toned collectors I know (granted its not all of them) realize that collecting toned coins requires paying up for the right coins.

 

But otherwise I agree with your post.

 

Thus, refer to the other 4 options on the list. My argument was that much of why I as a collector do not buy certain coins is because I feel they are simply priced out of the "reality" of the market.

 

I wasn't accusing you (or anyone else) of being miserly; contrary to that, I was saying that reasons 4) and 5) apply less nowadays to why a coin would sit in inventory forever. Reasons 1) through 3) are more likely explanations. Buyers will find the coins they want, and will even happily pay up for a truly special coin. But, some dealers apparently take us for fools at the prices I see some "ho-hum" (L@@K TONED) coins listed for sale. I try not to stress or dwell on things I can't control -- dealers are able to list their coins for whatever they'd like, even if that means they will keep it in their case for 5-10 years. What's one to do?

[TonerGuy]

Thus, refer to the other 4 options on the list. My argument was that much of why I as a collector do not buy certain coins is because I feel they are simply priced out of the "reality" of the market.

 

I wasn't accusing you (or anyone else) of being miserly; contrary to that, I was saying that reasons 4) and 5) apply less nowadays to why a coin would sit in inventory forever. Reasons 1) through 3) are more likely explanations. Buyers will find the coins they want, and will even happily pay up for a truly special coin. But, some dealers apparently take us for fools at the prices I see some "ho-hum" (L@@K TONED) coins listed for sale. I try not to stress or dwell on things I can't control -- dealers are able to list their coins for whatever they'd like, even if that means they will keep it in their case for 5-10 years. What's one to do?

 

Ahhh thank you for the clarification. And now I agree with your statement even further.

 

I do think that I dont purchase certain toners because I dont know the specific market. Its a prime reason why I dont even bother to dabble in Morgans. Morgans are an expansive series with a huge variation in what dates/mint-marks come with "monster" toning and which dont. Its really a lot to learn and its easy to get burned buying the wrong toned coin for the wrong price when it comes to Morgans.

 

But thats also why I think Peace $ are much easier to learn when you are starting out... no date/mint mark comes with easy to find monster toning. Monsters are very very rare in the Peace $ world. So if you find one, buy it because you probably wont see 3 more you like 3 tables down at the same show. You might not see another one that you like better in 3 years.

 

I know Roosies, Washingtons and even Franklins are more likely to be easier series than Morgans but then again Ive seen toned Monster Roosies bringing $2000-$5000. Thats a big mistake if you buy the wrong coin.

 

To play at the deep end of the toner pool you need knowledge. And time to do the research and the ability to find the pricing data. BIN-OBO is not conducive to getting that data.

 

[USAuPzlBxBob]

... .

[jesbroken]

I believe BIN is used highly as a protection device to prevent total loss on the auction. I doubt very seriously if the ebay sellers truly think they will get this price, but will prevent a super low bid winning and them losing their shirts. Most of the coins I buy are bought by making fair offers(even when none are requested) and not lowball insults directly to the seller.

Best luck in the new year.

Jim