Is this "terminal toning" to you....

[TonerGuy]

1944 10C Mercury Dime PCGS MS 65 Monster Toned Beauty

 

What exactly is the definition of terminal toning ?

[RWB]

There is no accepted definition. (To me, it is very dark blue or black or brown = ugly.)

[AHFreak]

I always thought it meant toning that is advanced deep enough into the coins surface that it can't be saved. ... like terminal illness. ... can it be treated, or is it terminal. .. that's a bit morbid sorry....

[MarkFeld]

Possibly on a small portion of the obverse and probably on a large portion of the reverse. But I would want to see it in hand before making a declaration.

[cpm9ball]

I always thought that the terminal stage is when the toning begins to turn black.

 

Chris

[coinman1794]

1944 10C Mercury Dime PCGS MS 65 Monster Toned Beauty

 

What exactly is the definition of terminal toning ?

 

At a certain point, toning becomes deeply etched in the surface and cannot be removed without showing stains.

 

If the dark toning on this dime is opaque and will not let luster through, it has probably reached that point. Dark toning can also be very thin and translucent, not affecting the luster. It would require an in=person examination to say for certain.

[BillJones]

It's probably natural, but it's also very ugly, at least to me.

 

Some people seem to think that ANY toning is beautiful or "monster." Not true.

[david3142]

Bill, I think only eBay sellers think that way. I agree with the above - terminal = dark and beyond the point at which it could be dipped clean. That coin looks ugly to me from the pics.

[jerseycat10]

Terminal? Yes.

Monster? No.

Beautiful to my eyes? Yes.

 

[TonerGuy]

Okay it seems as though most people that have responded so far agree that this coin could very well be considered terminal...

 

And most of the time TPGs will call terminal toning - environmental damage

 

Is terminal toning NOT environmental damage ?

 

And if it is why do the "Black Beauty" Morgans get a pass on this and usually end up straight graded ?

 

1888 Morgan Dollar Certified NGC MS63 Slab Toning Rev Color Toned Black & Blue

 

as a side note - if anyone has a "Black Beauty" Peace $ - pls let me know I would like to make you an offer on it...

[Walkerfan]

Terminal? Yes.

Monster? No.

Beautiful to my eyes? Yes.

 

+1

 

I believe that it is close to terminal but it's still attractive to me.

 

I don't know if I'd call it a monster, though, either.

[KeyMan64]

Yes, that has terminal toning. Obviously an in hand review would be required but based on those photos it has some on the obverse and much more on the reverse. I consider anything as terminal when the layer of luster has been eaten through. I would not buy that coin at bid. It just isn't for me.

 

Toning does not have to be anywhere close to black to be terminal. I can be light tan to brown. If the layer of luster is gone, the coin has become damaged in my view.

[mumu]

Okay it seems as though most people that have responded so far agree that this coin could very well be considered terminal...

 

And most of the time TPGs will call terminal toning - environmental damage

 

Is terminal toning NOT environmental damage ?

 

And if it is why do the "Black Beauty" Morgans get a pass on this and usually end up straight graded ?

 

1888 Morgan Dollar Certified NGC MS63 Slab Toning Rev Color Toned Black & Blue

 

as a side note - if anyone has a "Black Beauty" Peace $ - pls let me know I would like to make you an offer on it...

 

I only have one that I'd like to try and get into a problem free holder as I think its natural. I just bought it back after selling it a couple years ago.Though it was once in a PCGS Questionable.

 

 

 

[coinman1794]

Okay it seems as though most people that have responded so far agree that this coin could very well be considered terminal...

 

And most of the time TPGs will call terminal toning - environmental damage

 

Is terminal toning NOT environmental damage ?

 

And if it is why do the "Black Beauty" Morgans get a pass on this and usually end up straight graded ?

 

1888 Morgan Dollar Certified NGC MS63 Slab Toning Rev Color Toned Black & Blue

 

as a side note - if anyone has a "Black Beauty" Peace $ - pls let me know I would like to make you an offer on it...

 

All toning is technically environmental damage, the degree of damage determines whether or not it grades. As I said previously; if the surfaces have been etched and luster is no longer showing or potentially destroyed, then you have a problem. Black toning is not, in and of itself, a confirmation of that.

[PocketArt]

Agreed coinman1794,

 

Here is a 1952-s Washington Quarter, has significant black toning on reverse. Not terminal; but perhaps zombie.

 

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

It's looks terminal to me in more than one way.

[JIM F.]

Would this be considered "terminal toning"?

[coinman_23885]

Yes.

[coinman_23885]

Is terminal toning NOT environmental damage ?

 

Not always... The difference is the underlying luster. If it is substantially muted and the toning etched heavily into the surface, you have ED. If there is enough luster, it might just be terminal. There are so called "Black Beauties" with good luster. This is a rare combination though. Some people will pay a premium; I avoid them.

[TonerGuy]

All toning is technically environmental damage, the degree of damage determines whether or not it grades. As I said previously; if the surfaces have been etched and luster is no longer showing or potentially destroyed, then you have a problem. Black toning is not, in and of itself, a confirmation of that.

 

Okay can you expand on this ? Im not disagreeing with you Im just trying to figure out where black/terminal toning becomes environmental damage and will prevent a coin from straight grading.

 

To me black toning that doesnt have any color underlying the black is terminal. Ive seen Black Beauty Morgans that are black but have a degree of emerald underlying the black. But when the black toning is flat and there's no luster and no other color would you then agree that its terminal and thus environmental damage.

 

IMHO My original OP coin linked to is terminal. The NGC Morgan I linked to is terminal. The NGC Peace $ above is terminal. But all have straight graded.

 

This is what I find confusing.

[braddick]

I spent a long time hunting for a TRUE Black Beauty within the Peace dollars. This was the only one I ever located meeting my strict definition:

 

 

 

In my mind's eye both sides must be pitch black. Not so much as to eliminate the luster though.

[jerseycat10]

I consider terminal to mean "black". Black toning in and of itself is not necessarily damage. Only when it starts eating away the luster of the coin does damage occur, imho.

[coinman_23885]

IMHO My original OP coin linked to is terminal. The NGC Morgan I linked to is terminal. The NGC Peace $ above is terminal. But all have straight graded.

 

This is what I find confusing.

 

1. It all comes down to luster; and

2. TPG inconsistency.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

I consider terminal to mean "black". Black toning in and of itself is not necessarily damage. Only when it starts eating away the luster of the coin does damage occur, imho.

 

+1

[Danye West]

I don't think this is a pretty coin.

[TonerGuy]

I spent a long time hunting for a TRUE Black Beauty within the Peace dollars. This was the only one I ever located meeting my strict definition:

 

 

 

In my mind's eye both sides must be pitch black. Not so much as to eliminate the luster though.

 

I'd like to see that coin in hand someday. Ive never found anything even close to it in 15 yrs. Congrats.

[nk1nk]

Braddick, do you own that coin and what's the grade? I like it a lot. I collected black beauties for awhile and I love them. I understand your confusion toner guy, there really is no rhyme or reason to the TPG's grading these, the ones with luster are beautiful in my opinion and even some lacking luster can look good, the splotchy toning like the quarter posted in this thread I find completely unappealing. I owned the peace dollar mumu speaks of and it has good luster and I'm in agreement that it should straight grade, I had intended to send it in but never did. Here are a few black beauties I owned and loved the last picture lacked luster and wasn't my favorite but it was pretty enough for me, I would consider it terminal but it was in a problem free slab. I miss collecting these coins and I personally love the original posted Mercury, it would have fit into my dark side of the moon collection nicely, if I was still collecting I would have over paid to win it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nk1nk]

I also bought this peace dollar raw on eBay and it straight graded, the timing is black and had decent luster.

 

[mumu]

Those are all nice looking darkies Nick.

[jerseycat10]

Jesus, Braddick, that's incredible.