Deceptive Pictures

[Dkillett]

I guess I may be a little late to the show on this topic, but it has come to my attention much more here recently. Being that I am still working on my certified Franklin Proof set, I am using ebay and a few other sites more and more.

 

I notice this mostly with Franklin Proofs than other coins, although I'm sure others are experiencing the same thing. More and more people are using photoshop or some other method to "enhance" the images of their coins to make them look better than they actually are.

 

One dealer, whose name I will not disclose, sent me some pictures of some coins that were graded as standard proofs. I guess If I didn't do my research I would be none the wiser, but the pictures I received would make the coins appear to be monster cameo or dcam coins.

 

I have learned with NGC coins to use the cert verification and see the pictures that NGC took and compare the coins. For the most part the coins don't generally look that good.

 

In some rare instances the coin will be on par with the description, but more times than not, most don't measure up.

 

I just wonder how many people have been burned buying form these people and end up getting not exactly what they thought they were getting.

 

Just curious as to what others opinions on this subject.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[KMAG100]

If you find sellers that photo shops pictures to eliminate blemishes...don't buy from that seller...the above case is different than a top coin photographer using lighting techniques to show case a coin' s good attributes.. In fact I marvel at the skill of the later...Just my thoughts

[wdrob]

 

Stick to dealers and other sellers that provide multiple lighting photos. One might accentuate the beauty of the coin and the other might show the coin in a more natural state.

 

On questionable coins that are toned and difficult to capture every nuance I provide at least two sets of photos from alternate lighting and then also add a direct link to the NGC Certification Photos.

 

Somewhere in between all that you will find the coin.

 

 

[KeyMan64]

Proofs are much more difficult to image than business strikes. You can image them 100 different ways and it could very well look like 100 different coins. Besides that though and like kmag said, the removal of blemishes or impairments is a different matter. Lighting and tilt and the skill of the photographer can yield shockingly different results....and that is before you get to any discussion about color saturation in photoshop or blemish removal etc etc...

[Dkillett]

I have found sellers that have done this to hide blemishes, spots, etc.. And I do agree that lighting has everything to do with photographing proof coins. If it were just one or two coins here and there that this was happening with I would kind of chalk it up to photography skills. However there are a couple of ebay sellers and at least one dealer who use such practices continuously.

 

Again, I was just pointing something out that might help others in the future.

[Jackthecat]

I think that Photoshopping a coin picture is the moral equivalent of doctoring the coin.

[AHFreak]

Well I specialize in Kennedy proofs, Franklin proofs and SMS Kennedy's, mainly Cam and DeepCam and I can promise you that there are only a coupleasure guys who are doing this to be deceptive. Most just can't photograph proofs worth . There isn't anything more challenging then photographing slabbed proofs with cameo/DeepCameo appearance.

 

Another thing, I have had absolute Monster B&W (true black and white) proofs that were jaw droppers in hand. Look the cert # up and the picture of said coin shows almost no cameo. .. our hosts here aRe not the least bit concerned about capturing cameo for cert verification photos. .. so don't put much weight into those when making decisions.

[Hack]

I have a collection of PL and DMPL Morgan's, and I also find that some eBay sellers simply can not take quality photos of PL and DMPL coins as many of the coin photos do not show the cameo or mirrors and often the photos do not match the true appearance of the coin. I agree with AHFreak, on these type of coins it may not always be deceptive photos, but the lack of skills to take quality photos. Are there eBay sellers who take deceptive photos: yes.

 

One of the problems of buying coins on eBay is the photos of each seller are different, and there are really no rules on taking photos other than a coin photo has to be at a certain resolution to post the photo. Part of my selection process of choosing eBay sellers is do their coin photos and description provide a good representation of the coin. One rule that I have on purchasing coins on eBay is that the seller must offer refunds or I will pass on the coin and seller.

 

One of the advantages of buying coins from the major auction houses is that the photos overall are much better when compared to the typical eBay photo.

[e1cnr]

I have seen some pics where the seller has used something like paintshop to 'blacken' the fields

 

this is much different than taking the pic with lighting to highlight the frost and reflect into camera lens to highlight the reflective fields with black from camera lens

 

UCAM/DCAM that have great pics, also have a great photographer

[orifdoc]

As others have said, simple lighting techniques can emphasize or almost completely conceal a coin's flaws. One TPG offers a photography service that generally produces very flattering images. It's not wrong, as most photographs will very faithfully depict a coin from a single perspective.

 

The real trick is to NEVER rely only on photographs, unless you truly don't care about how the coin looks. A return privilege or opportunity to view the coin in-hand before purchase is key. If this isn't possible, having a trusted individual is a also useful, but still no substitute for seeing it in-person.

[Dkillett]

As others have said, simple lighting techniques can emphasize or almost completely conceal a coin's flaws. One TPG offers a photography service that generally produces very flattering images. It's not wrong, as most photographs will very faithfully depict a coin from a single perspective.

 

The real trick is to NEVER rely only on photographs, unless you truly don't care about how the coin looks. A return privilege or opportunity to view the coin in-hand before purchase is key. If this isn't possible, having a trusted individual is a also useful, but still no substitute for seeing it in-person.

 

I agree 100%. Nothing is better than actually seeing the coin in hand. However, I'm only able to attend about 3 coin shows a year, and the 2 coin shops that are remotely close to me have very limited inventory when it comes to half dollars.

[BillJones]

I think that Photoshopping a coin picture is the moral equivalent of doctoring the coin.

 

It can be, but sometimes the camera does some things with the white balance and the like that result in photos that are not accurate. I don't have Photoshop, but I have a Microsoft program that I use. I hold the coin up to the light beside me, and try as best I can to duplicate it on the screen.

 

As for hiding problems one way to do it is to overexpose the photo. That can hide a lot of marks. I've been fooled with technique enough times to make me very leery of bidding with auction houses where I don't have a trusted set of eyes to tell me about the coin if I can't look at the coins personally. I stopped bothering with one well known auction house because they didn't tell me the truth about a very expensive coin that interested me. Another collector, whose opinion I trust, looked at it and told me it was a scrubbed up piece of junk after they told me it was great.

 

That was a dumb move on their part because they ended whatever relationship I have had with them then and there.

 

Here is an 1862 Proof dollar shot from two angles, straight on and at an angle to show the Proof surface. This is not a great coin, but it's a nice coin, and off angle shot is accurate.

 

 

 

I have found Proof coins to be real bears to photograph, especially when they are in slabs.

[RWB]

I'll disagree with the "difficulty" of photographing proof coins.

 

Consider --- most proof coins have mirror-like fields; a mirror reflects light with less scatter than a non-mirror; if a proof coin is on a flat surface and the camera is parallel to the coin, the mirror will reflect an image of the camera, back to the CCD in the camera. Assuming the coin relief is in focus, the reflection will be out of focus. This fuzzy reflection becomes the field area of the image.

 

To reduce the fuzzy reflection, place something around the lens so that there are minimal light surfaces to be reflected -- black velvet is good.

 

Light the coin to correctly show the design and inscriptions. The mirror-like fields will come out dark gray or black depending on the reflectivity of the coin.

 

If you want white reflections, use a white card around the lens.

 

The exact shape and size of the card can be altered to provide even coverage for the mirrors right up to the rim.

 

If you're dealing with mirror relief, then things become difficult.

[BillJones]

Most cameo Proof coins end up like this for me, "black and white." You can decide if you like this image or not.

 

 

 

I find PCGS coins to be more difficult to photograph than government capsules and NGC coins. The reason is the curved windows on the PCGS holder. Raw coins are the easiest coins and medals to shot. You don't have to put up with the reflections from the plastic.

[Hack]

Bill,

 

Your last two photos are excellent. What type of bulb are you using for lighting?

[BillJones]

I use an incandescent bulb generally a foot higher than the subject coin. This usually results in the picture being a bit too yellow which I filter out with the software I have. For example the silver coin show about will have a yellowish color before I've processed.

 

Years ago the photography store I used recommended super intensity light, but that just drowned everything out. That was back in the old days with a film camera. Generally I experiment with anything including light bounced off a mirror for some things to eliminate hot spots. As I said before PCGS slabs are the hardest to photograph for me because of the hot spots and reflections.

 

I also have some trouble with the stupid red photo indication light on the camera reflecting up now and then. It does matter what I've found to cover it within reason it still crops up in some pictures.

 

[RWB]

The fuzzy color in the above photos are reflections of a hand or the camera.

[coinman1794]

It is very common for Proof Franklins to have a faint trace of Cameo contrast, that, when photographed, makes the frost look heavier than it actually is, in-hand--no Photoshop required. That said, I'm sure some people are probably juicing their images.

 

It helps to have an accompanying description with your listings. I do not recommend buying anything on ebay based solely on a photograph.

[Hack]

.

 

It helps to have an accompanying description with your listings. I do not recommend buying anything on ebay based solely on a photograph.

 

There are a number of eBay dealers that post no description of the coin. Most of these dealers with no descriptions typically have a large write up about their business qualities and not the coin qualities. If a dealer is in the business to sell coins, what is the reasoning of not taking a couple of minutes and provide a coin description?

 

I have noticed some eBay dealers on above average coins will add a positive description. On below average coins there will be no description. I can understand why a dealer would do this, but it may cost the dealer revenue in the long term because the regular buyers know to stay away from the coins with no description.

[Matt_dac]

Wow....Bill's pictures of the Seated Liberty in particular are a 'class' on the challenges of buying online. I found Heritage does a good job photographing coins but on Ebay it's the Wild West. In most cases I think people don't have the means (equipment) or knowledge to take the best pictures of coins.

[RWB]

I saw several deceptive pitchers last weekend:

 

Zack Greinke, Clayton Kershaw, and Max Scherzer....Clearly masters of real-time Photoshop.

[Houston Investor]

There really is no substitute for sight seen buying like at a show, looking at a coin under magnification under adequate lighting.

 

Buying online is a semi sight unseen sort of buying. Photos often do not capture everything whether postitive or negative. A seller offering a return option is a must.

[coinman1794]

.

 

It helps to have an accompanying description with your listings. I do not recommend buying anything on ebay based solely on a photograph.

 

There are a number of eBay dealers that post no description of the coin. Most of these dealers with no descriptions typically have a large write up about their business qualities and not the coin qualities. If a dealer is in the business to sell coins, what is the reasoning of not taking a couple of minutes and provide a coin description?

 

I have noticed some eBay dealers on above average coins will add a positive description. On below average coins there will be no description. I can understand why a dealer would do this, but it may cost the dealer revenue in the long term because the regular buyers know to stay away from the coins with no description.

 

The solution is to buy only from dealers who take the time to describe their merchandise properly (no shameless plugs intended)

 

And it is not just on ebay that dealer fail to describe their coins.

[Lucky One]

There really is no substitute for sight seen buying like at a show, looking at a coin under magnification under adequate lighting.

 

Buying online is a semi sight unseen sort of buying. Photos often do not capture everything whether postitive or negative. A seller offering a return option is a must.

 

very good advice!