CAC Submittal

[Hack]

I have set raw coins into both NGC and PCGS and I have cracked out coins for resubmittal. I have sent coins in for crossover, conservation and I have started a registry set. The members on this board have provided me invaluable information and guidance and I thank you.

 

I am considering sending in 10 coins into CAC for the Green Bean. I have read about the CAC selection process of only beaning the A & B coins out of A, B, and C coins for the grade. I would like some feedback from someone who has submitted to CAC on why CAC will not bean some coins that appear worthy and why some coins that appear to be a C coin get the bean. What should I be looking for in my 10 coin selection to CAC?

[MarkFeld]

Grading is at least partly subjective and inconsistent, so experts can disagree.

 

In some cases, those who disagree with CAC have substantial knowledge and in other cases, not.

[BROADSTRUCK]

Just send them but don't dump the ones which don't sticker in your first submission. Many collectors sold off great coins in the early years of CAC only to see their old favs reappear stickerd when resent afterward by someone else.

[david3142]

If you ask in advance (make a note on the form) I believe they will tell you why the coin(s) did not get a sticker.

 

Out of curiosity, why are you sending them in?

[MarkFeld]

Just send them but don't dump the ones which don't sticker in your first submission. Many collectors sold off great coins in the early years of CAC only to see their old favs reappear stickerd when resent afterward by someone else.

 

I have seen or heard of coins stickering after having been rejected previously, only in extremely rare instances. It is by no means a common occurrence.

[Raisethis2]

There's no one answer. CAC will generally bean coins that are original in appearance provided they are A or B for the grade assigned. They will also bean coins that have been dipped but in numbers far lower in my experience.

 

They prefer well struck coins and reject coins often that should be well struck but are not. Similarly, they like great eye appeal and usually reward nicely toned submissions again, well struck and high for the grade assigned.

 

They do march to the beat of their own drum so there's always surprises either way. Getting Gold Beans now a days from everything I hear is near impossible. The prevailing theory is that NGC and PCGS are grading as tightly as ever and this is reflected in CAC submissions.

 

Be aware that CAC will be closed for submissions from Monday August 10th through Monday August 17th so ship in a fashion where coins are not delivered during this time frame. Also, the general public cannot simply submit coins but rather must be accepted into CAC's Membership group. If you are not a member either ship through a member dealer or collector so authorized.

 

[Hack]

David,

 

I want to send in some coins to CAC as part of my learning process of collecting. I understand that there are a lot of opinions about CAC, but they are part of the coin collecting process for good or bad.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Original, eye appeal, and no problem coins are more likely to get the CAC sticker, not so much technical grading.

[Mozin]

CAC is tougher on some series, such as the Bust Series, than they are on other series. For example, CAC might find a tiny bit of cleaning, sometime in 200 years, to be reason to reject the coin, even though the toning hides it very well. It is very hard to get a sticker on a MS Bust coin.

 

Sending rejected coins in for a second time is simply a waste of time.

[RWB]

CAC acceptance is $$-based. They are coins CAC will buy - it is not an objective confirmation.

[Coinbuf]

As you have set the number at ten select the ten coins (pre 1964) that you feel are the best in your collection and see how those do. Someone else mentioned it but if you are not already able to submit on your own you will need to have a dealer or collector that is able to submit for you. The difference between a collector vs a dealer is that you will pay for each coin bean or not, collectors are only charged for the coins that do pass.

[Hack]

CAC acceptance is $$-based. They are coins CAC will buy - it is not an objective confirmation.

 

RWB, I noticed on the CAC web site CAC notes they are an active bidder on CAC coins and have purchased over 340 million dollars in CAC sticker coins. Are they also a dealer for CAC coins?

[RWB]

"...active bidder on CAC coins..." You are paying a small fee so they can cherry-pick your coins.

 

That kind of corrals the subject.

 

[MarkFeld]

"...active bidder on CAC coins..." You are paying a small fee so they can cherry-pick your coins.

 

That kind of corrals the subject.

 

"cherry-pick" as in generally paying strong/highly competitive prices for coins they have stickered, because they like the quality.

 

[MarkFeld]

CAC acceptance is $$-based. They are coins CAC will buy - it is not an objective confirmation.

 

RWB, I noticed on the CAC web site CAC notes they are an active bidder on CAC coins and have purchased over 340 million dollars in CAC sticker coins. Are they also a dealer for CAC coins?

 

If by "Are they also a dealer for CAC coins" you mean do they deal with the public, the answer is no.

[BillJones]

"cherry-pick" as in generally paying strong/highly competitive prices for coins they have stickered, because they like the quality.

 

I have always interpreted the term "cherry pick" to mean that a buyer grabbed off the best coins a seller had at the best prices possible and left the seller with the less desirable material that was harder to sell.

 

RWB, I noticed on the CAC web site CAC notes they are an active bidder on CAC coins and have purchased over 340 million dollars in CAC sticker coins. Are they also a dealer for CAC coins?

 

If CAC is active buyer, do they publish bids anywhere where one would be able to sell their CAC approved coins quickly and easily? If there is a list, I've never seen it.

[Nutmeg Coin]

My understanding is their "strong bids" are just Greysheet bids in most cases, I would like to hear if they are paying over Greysheet on any coin they sticker, besides MS66 and up gold type, etc.. If the coin gold stickers at CAC do they generally offer to buy the coin at the next higher grade?

[MarkFeld]

"cherry-pick" as in generally paying strong/highly competitive prices for coins they have stickered, because they like the quality.

 

I have always interpreted the term "cherry pick" to mean that a buyer grabbed off the best coins a seller had at the best prices possible and left the seller with the less desirable material that was harder to sell.

 

RWB, I noticed on the CAC web site CAC notes they are an active bidder on CAC coins and have purchased over 340 million dollars in CAC sticker coins. Are they also a dealer for CAC coins?

 

If CAC is active buyer, do they publish bids anywhere where one would be able to sell their CAC approved coins quickly and easily? If there is a list, I've never seen it.

 

I interpret "cherrypick" in a similar way to how you do and I think RWB's post was unfair and misleading.

[MarkFeld]

My understanding is their "strong bids" are just Greysheet bids in most cases, I would like to hear if they are paying over Greysheet on any coin they sticker, besides MS66 and up gold type, etc.. If the coin gold stickers at CAC do they generally offer to buy the coin at the next higher grade?

 

I have heard that in many cases, Greysheet bids refelect CAC bids, not the other way around. So in such cases, if CAC were not bidding, Graysheet numbers would probably be lower, perhaps considerably so.

[Afterword]

"So in such cases, if CAC were not bidding, Graysheet numbers would probably be lower, perhaps considerably so."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you saying the higher prices for CAC stickered coins are mostly driven by CAC's bids on the same and not the result of a perceived higher quality coin dependent on the CAC sticker?

[MarkFeld]

"So in such cases, if CAC were not bidding, Graysheet numbers would probably be lower, perhaps considerably so."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you saying the higher prices for CAC stickered coins are mostly driven by CAC's bids on the same and not the result of a perceived higher quality coin dependent on the CAC sticker?

 

No, I was saying it's my understanding that some of the prices listed in the CDN reflect CAC bids. And that in making its bids, CAC is not merely matching CDN bids.

[Afterword]

"So in such cases, if CAC were not bidding, Graysheet numbers would probably be lower, perhaps considerably so."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you saying the higher prices for CAC stickered coins are mostly driven by CAC's bids on the same and not the result of a perceived higher quality coin dependent on the CAC sticker?

 

No, I was saying it's my understanding that some of the prices listed in the CDN reflect CAC bids. And that in making its bids, CAC is not merely matching CDN bids.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for replying!

[Fiddlehead]

FWIW, I've been submitting my coins to CAC for the last three years. First through dealers and more recently as a collector member. Most of my coins are of 1840 to 1865 vintage but I've submitted a few newere coins as well. I've learned a lot by seeing which coins they sticker and which they do not. While I don't get feedback from them, just the process of seeing which succeed has been edifying. I don't buy any coin that I don't think has any chance, and while I've had some surprises both ways, my predictions regarding which ones that will or will not get stickers have been about 75% right on. More than half the coins I've submitted have gotten stickers. They have never offered to buy anything I've submitted - and I've never asked them to make an offer. I have definitely seen a pattern of though. Of the 25 or so coins I've submitted (all with values over $2000 and some as high as $12,000) about 50% have been stickered. Of those 13 or so that have been stickered, only two were AU50 coins and AU 50 coins make up about 75% of those that have not been stickered. In my experience, the likihood of coins being stickered is much higher for XF/40/45 and AU53 to AU58 coins than with AU50's.

 

From what I hear there is skepticism regarding the AU50 grade (grade inflation?). Although I think my AU50 coins are all legitimately graded - I like them all and I thought that all but one of them had a pretty decent chance of being stickered, I have yet to have a pre-1866 AU 50 gold coin accepted.

 

It's not a large sample, but they were all chosen by the same person (me) and the results have been consistent.

 

Has anyone else found this to be the case?

[BillJones]

In response to your comment about AU-50 coins, I have been disappointed in the quality of coins that have been given that grade in recent years. Years ago they were often quite nice, but of late, not so much. Nowadays you have go to at least AU-53 to suit me. AU-53 might be the new AU-50.

[Hard Times]

"...active bidder on CAC coins..." You are paying a small fee so they can cherry-pick your coins.

 

That kind of corrals the subject.

 

"cherry-pick" as in generally paying strong/highly competitive prices for coins they have stickered, because they like the quality.

 

I was offered established wholesale to slightly above buy prices for CAC for the coins I collect (pre-civil war) including A coins for the grade. I don't consider that strong or highly competitive for pq coins for the grade. As I have noted before, I have had pq for the grade coins with stickers I offered to CAC that received these underwhelming buy offers for the quality, that I then sold on the floor at major coin conventions to prominent dealers in many cases 2-3 times the price I was offered by CAC. So you should not take the 'strong' prices offered by CAC in all cases - get other site seen offers as well.

 

HT

[Lucky One]

I have set raw coins into both NGC and PCGS and I have cracked out coins for resubmittal. I have sent coins in for crossover, conservation and I have started a registry set. The members on this board have provided me invaluable information and guidance and I thank you.

 

I am considering sending in 10 coins into CAC for the Green Bean. I have read about the CAC selection process of only beaning the A & B coins out of A, B, and C coins for the grade. I would like some feedback from someone who has submitted to CAC on why CAC will not bean some coins that appear worthy and why some coins that appear to be a C coin get the bean. What should I be looking for in my 10 coin selection to CAC?

 

 

I have been asked many times why I am so successful when selling my extras after upgrading. I think it is a very simple answer- I buy only what I think MOST other collectors would like, as in eye appeal. If they are already looking for the coin, the only thing left for them to decide which to buy from a group of potential candidates is eye appeal and value.

 

On value: If you are patient when searching, you will get good value when you buy. When I built custom computers earlier in my life, customers would ask how I could compete with the likes of CompUSA, Computer City and the myriad of computer big box stores and I told them the trick to making a good profit was buying right, not selling right. In short, you make your profit when you buy or you probably won't make it. Knowing what my competition charged, I was able to beat them at their own game by being selective when restocking parts for inventory, and there was ALWAYS some supplier (or coin dealer for our discussion) closing out a needed item, and that is when I bought that item, locking in my profit before I ever sold it. Back to rare coins though...

 

On eye appeal: We all have our own idea of beauty and eye appeal, it is the most subjective part of collecting and obvioulsy why CAC or the grading services disagree so often- it is ONLY an opinion, and even a professional opinion is subject to change with mood or circumstance (a light bulb change is enough in some cases). So, with so many constantly varying opinions to deal with, how do *I* do so well? I try to use the consensus to my advantage- I only buy what I really, really like, and to be sure it isn't a foolish pick, I try to understand what makes everyone else who might ever want to bid on it would want to see in it. In other words- I try to buy what I think MOST suitors would buy so as to lock in a quick sale if and when the time came.

 

So, long comment made short- buy ONLY what you think the vast majority of all other collectors would definitely want in their collections. If you look at the collections of the greatest collectors, you will find the very finest. Why did men with such deep pockets not have some issues? Simply because the 'right' coin never showed up while they were looking.

 

By the way- do you usually get the grade you were expecting? If you do, trust your gut. If you don't, spend more time looking at slabs on the bourse floors of major coin shows, that is the best lesson and it's free.

 

Food for thought, and should help you decide which will definitely get beaned. Good luck my friend!

[wheat'swheats]

CAC is tougher on some series, such as the Bust Series, than they are on other series. For example, CAC might find a tiny bit of cleaning, sometime in 200 years, to be reason to reject the coin, even though the toning hides it very well. It is very hard to get a sticker on a MS Bust coin.

 

Sending rejected coins in for a second time is simply a waste of time.

That's not quite true. You have to be really selective on the resubmission. I have had 3 out of 5 reconsidered and have gotten 2 green beans increased to gold

[Fiddlehead]

In response to your comment about AU-50 coins, I have been disappointed in the quality of coins that have been given that grade in recent years. Years ago they were often quite nice, but of late, not so much. Nowadays you have go to at least AU-53 to suit me. AU-53 might be the new AU-50.

 

I haven't seen enough coins in my life to know for sure, but tend to agree based on my limited experience and what I hear from others. I do see very substantial difference between AU50's and 53/55's. That said - I also think that every one of the AU 50 coins I have is less worn than any XF 45 I have. I tend to like the AU50 grade even if it's a premium xf! A little legitimate use works well for me. I guess all of this is somewhat confirming of the hard to CAC an AU50 phenomenon. But - as a collector - another view of the AU grades in general is that it's by far the broadest range grade - so what's so bad about an AU 50 as a premium XF coin? I don't know - it seems like the range between 50 and 58 really could be two grade categories rather than one - or the 50 grade could be XF50 - then you would have three XF grades and three AU grades instead of two and four. That would make more sense to me - but then "I know nothing!"

 

[wheat'swheats]

"cherry-pick" as in generally paying strong/highly competitive prices for coins they have stickered, because they like the quality.

 

I have always interpreted the term "cherry pick" to mean that a buyer grabbed off the best coins a seller had at the best prices possible and left the seller with the less desirable material that was harder to sell.

 

RWB, I noticed on the CAC web site CAC notes they are an active bidder on CAC coins and have purchased over 340 million dollars in CAC sticker coins. Are they also a dealer for CAC coins?

 

If CAC is active buyer, do they publish bids anywhere where one would be able to sell their CAC approved coins quickly and easily? If there is a list, I've never seen it.

If you contact CAC about a coin they will make you an offer and in my experience it has been above grey sheet and in several cases at or near auction prices. Their payment is very rapid usually a check is sent the same day received if received before the mail runs.

[Fiddlehead]

CAC is tougher on some series, such as the Bust Series, than they are on other series. For example, CAC might find a tiny bit of cleaning, sometime in 200 years, to be reason to reject the coin, even though the toning hides it very well. It is very hard to get a sticker on a MS Bust coin.

 

Sending rejected coins in for a second time is simply a waste of time.

That's not quite true. You have to be really selective on the resubmission. I have had 3 out of 5 reconsidered and have gotten 2 green beans increased to gold

 

A CAC member dealer told me he thought it was hopeless to resubmit coins to CAC without getting a new Cert number first, He said this with conviction - I'm glad to hear people have had other experiences. Do you you suppose they look up the certification number before they judget the coin - or not? One would assume that if they don't check to see if a coin has been reviewed before that there would always be a chance on something that was on the cusp?