3D printers

[KMAG100]

With the advent of 3 D printers and the continuous advancement of the technology, coupled with the increase in different materials that are now being used to create outputs. What are peoples thoughts as it relates to counterfeiting coins to the point of not being able to determine it is a counterfeit? Do you see any long term impacts or challenges on the coin industry? From what I hear they can reproduce jewelry pieces (gold & silver) from pictures.

[RWB]

There already are undetectable counterfeits -- they simply haven't been detected.

[physics-fan3.14]

There is a very long time before a "printed" item can effectively simulate a "struck" item.

 

I'm not (currently) worried about it.

[wdrob]

 

There is a very long time before a "printed" item can effectively simulate a "struck" item.

 

I'm not (currently) worried about it.

 

Start worrying.

 

3D printing produces a perfect replica of a sixth-century sword

A damaged sixth-century sword in a museum in Norway has been perfectly reproduced as new through 3D printing.

 

 

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Bill, that printed sword looks very nice. However, if you expect that would fool an expert, you'd be very wrong. It is meant to very closely simulate the original sword, but it could never come close to actually fooling anyone.

 

There is also a big difference between that and a struck item - without printing on the molecular level, a printer could never reproduce the flowlines and feel of genuine luster.

 

So I repeat - they are a very long way off from producing convincing fakes of struck items.

[wdrob]

 

Yes I am somewhat skeptical as well, however there are a few more articles attached to that one which address the same thing and although it is probably exaggerated as to the likeness, it sure does make one curious as to how long it will take.

 

I was not even aware of the advances until kmag posted this and I happened to recall seeing that article on someones timeline. I had never read the article(s) until now. I am somewhat impressed with the technology but at the same time, it is somewhat unnerving.

 

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

I have one word for the 3D printer fad: frivolous. I'm sure they have real industrial applications, and educational ones for students. Unfortunately I see them being way overused and cost more than they come to by a mile. Plus they are turning the local library that has them out in the open near the internet computers into an industrial lab with all the racket.

[Conder101]

How much hand finish work was needed? Smoothing, polishing etc.

 

And no close up side by side comparison to let us see just how "perfect" the replica was? In the one side by side image shown the hilt guards on the original appear smaller and more rounded. I'm sure partly from wear, but I also suspect the replica is a perfect idealized replica. and not a perfect replica of the actual artifact.

[KMAG100]

Where it will end up 30 years from now should not be carelessly dismissed today. 3D printers have been around for 20 plus years already, and the cost and flexibility of material has vastly improved. I think one application beside 3D design used by engineers, is in the medical field, but applications for the technology are nearly unlimited...

[physics-fan3.14]

Where it will end up 30 years from now should not be carelessly dismissed today. 3D printers have been around for 20 plus years already, and the cost and flexibility of material has vastly improved. I think one application beside 3D design used by engineers, is in the medical field, but applications for the technology are nearly unlimited...

 

I have no doubt that 3D printers are one day going to be extremely useful in a wide variety of applications. I'm saying they won't be able to perfectly replicate an item that was struck (i.e., a coin). That is the whole point of this thread.

[KMAG100]

I'm saying they won't be able to perfectly replicate an item that was struck (i.e., a coin). That is the whole point of this thread.

 

I sure hope you are right.....It would be a real bummer if that is not the case, and you have to send everything to be examined on a molecular level to verify authenticity.

[AHFreak]

There is no way a 3D printer could ever replicate a struck coin that would fool any dealer/coin collector to any degree. .. I'm sure there will come a time (if it's not already here) where a 3-D printer could print an exact replica of a coin that is exact, but that is not going to have the look of a struck coin, or nowhere near it. As PF 3.14 mentioned it just wouldn't replicate the flow of the metal that is created when a coin is struck, and that metal flow is what creates luster... a 3D printer will not ever be able to "print that natural luster"

 

What I would be more worried about than 3D printed coins, would be 3D printed dies.... something like that could probably make some very very good counterfeits.

[Afterword]

I suspect it would only have to fool a novice to create a degree of concern. If not perfect, but reasonably close, such a coin might be manipulated by cleaning and toning, and in the case of certain rare coins that command high prices in this condition it could create a degree of concern.

 

As far as the present capabilities of a 3D printer (I understand they are being developed by the military, medical sciences and NASA), I do not possess the expertise to venture an opinion.

 

 

 

 

[dcarr]

Bill, that printed sword looks very nice. However, if you expect that would fool an expert, you'd be very wrong. It is meant to very closely simulate the original sword, but it could never come close to actually fooling anyone.

 

There is also a big difference between that and a struck item - without printing on the molecular level, a printer could never reproduce the flowlines and feel of genuine luster.

 

So I repeat - they are a very long way off from producing convincing fakes of struck items.

 

I agree.

 

I have worked in the Computer-Aided-Design & Manufacturing ("CAD/CAM") fields for many years. I've also had some experience with 3D printers. And currently I do Computer Numeric Control ("CNC") coinage die engraving almost every day.

 

Ultimately, it comes down to this:

 

A 3D printed "coin" is the same as a cast coin, not a struck coin.

[Conder101]

What I would be more worried about than 3D printed coins, would be 3D printed dies.... something like that could probably make some very very good counterfeits.

I don't know. I would not expect a 3D printed die to be able to strike coins itself. Even after hardening. (which would be necessary) I seriously doubt the metal of the die would be "tough" enough to stand up to the coining pressures. After all it wouldn't be tool steel.

[thebeav]

I think that one of the most impressive uses for 3D printing technology is the manufacturing of prosthetics. Especially as it relates to kids. A prosthetic hand for a child can cost 30 to 40 k to manufacture, and they grow out of it in a year or two. A 3D printed one can cost only a thousand dollars.

I've been seeing a commercial on TV lately, I'm not even sure what it was for, but in it they show a little girl trying out a new prosthetic hand. I also heard of some organization that helps create this stuff free for a family that has financial need.

While this technology has a great future and a lot of use today, making coins sure doesn't worry me....

 

Paul

[#]

Done

[dcarr]

Wow I cat believe I'm venturing into this as 99% of the board members have much more knowledge than me but...I work with all different types of metals alloying, annealing, casting, machine and pressing. I may not be able to achieve that special luster but I could easily make a coin that would pass most of the members here visual inspection. It would just be a low grade and placed in my pocket for a few weeks. Also, and this is just a question as I'm not knowledgeable in this area but what about the coins made prior to modern presses when they were made by rolling and screw press. Do they exhibit luster?

 

Even ancient coins, if they are cold-stamped, then they will have some luster.

 

[Conder101]

Screw press struck coins would have the same luster and those struck from knuckle or hydraulic presses. Roller or rocker press coins would have luster, but it would not be the same as the metal expansion and flow lines would be linear and not radial.

[e1cnr]

There is a very long time before a "printed" item can effectively simulate a "struck" item.

 

I'm not (currently) worried about it.

 

What if the counterfeiter is more imaginative than many of the people here, and reproduced a die --> which they use to strike counterfeit coins....

[Conder101]

I addressed that earlier.

[dcarr]

There is a very long time before a "printed" item can effectively simulate a "struck" item.

 

I'm not (currently) worried about it.

 

What if the counterfeiter is more imaginative than many of the people here, and reproduced a die --> which they use to strike counterfeit coins....

 

Counterfeits that were struck from cast dies have been around for a long time now. If you were to somehow 3-D print a die and successfully harden it, it would be like a cast die. But the quality of something like that would be no better than if you made a cast die the traditional way by taking a wax mold from the actual coin (without any 3-D printing involved).

[Afterword]

I suspect it would require someone with extensive knowledge of 3D printer programing and selective laser sintering to produce convincing counterfeits.

 

That is, if it is possible at all.

 

If it is possible and it has been done – well, you might have an example in your own collection.

 

[Conder101]

Counterfeits that were struck from cast dies have been around for a long time now. If you were to somehow 3-D print a die and successfully harden it, it would be like a cast die.

I would be doubtful that it would even have the strength of a hardened cast die.

[thebeav]

Counterfeits that were struck from cast dies have been around for a long time now. If you were to somehow 3-D print a die and successfully harden it, it would be like a cast die.

I would be doubtful that it would even have the strength of a hardened cast die.

 

I can't imagine a sintered metal die with any degree of strength at all.

 

Paul