Dealer Buy-Back Prices

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

CAL who always has, and always will, tell it like it is...

 

Hard Times, who for the first time in his life, has referred to himself in the 3rd person.........

 

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/HowTo:Refer_to_Yourself_in_the_Third_Person

 

From the website above: "The tendency to refer to oneself in the third person is often viewed by psychologists as a symptom of narcissism. In order to learn how to effectively refer to yourself in the third person, it is often desirable to understand the narcissist mentality, and develop an ability to "role-play" as an actual narcissist. Needless to say, the comedic potential of having this ability cannot be overestimated, but there is also danger, in that you may inadvertently develop strong narcissistic tendencies in yourself without realizing it."

 

Uh-oh I am going nuts.

 

You can join me, and I will guide you, since I have it on good authority that I am going lunatic on people and acting like I am clairvoyant. It isn't a bad place, so join me.

[MJ]

I will stand by my bizarre comment earlier.

 

Cal is OK IMO

 

Mark

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I will stand by my bizarre comment earlier.

 

Cal is OK IMO

 

Mark

 

 

Your opinion is as valid as anyone else, even if it is a bizarre opinion, in my opinion.

[MJ]

I will stand by my bizarre comment earlier.

 

Cal is OK IMO

 

Mark

 

 

Your opinion is as valid as anyone else, even if it is a bizarre opinion, in my opinion.

 

I like his discourse. He is entertaining to boot.

 

Mark

[Kurtdog]

Based on experience, primarily my research, and conversation the industry average markup over CDN Bid is around 40% or around a margin of 30% (Gross Margin before costs of the business). This is simply the reality of running any retail business. More than one dealer I have shared tables with at shows have said "I just pay 60-70% of what I can sell it for."

What type of material do you sell? While a 30-40% markup might be normal for coins under $300 and dreck, for higher end coins like most here pursue, a markup that high would be absurd. I just purchased a $4500 coin from a large national dealer, and the markup was more along the lines of 5% on that particular transaction, with many others in the 10%-20% range for coins in the $1000-$2500 range.

You're talking through your hat. Aren't you listening to a thing he's saying? Why don't you go to Wikipedia and look up "margin" and see if you can figure out probably for the first time in your life what the difference between that and "markup" is. You're totally misunderstanding him because it's apparent you don't understand that term, much less appreciate the significance of it to a business. And dealers do go under margin all the time when they've got a pigeon on the wire because that coin isn't sitting on the shelf in the normal course of business, month-after-month. Your inferences are all fouled up because you don't understand the first thing about how to run a business. Just take this $4500 coin you say was marked up 5% from wholesale to this dealer. That would leave him with a 4.76% margin on his cost of goods sold. How in the heck is this dealer still in business operating on an income statement like that? Seller11 was telling you the numbers in the normal course of business, and he's right in there on those. You're citing atypical examples, if, indeed, you even know what you're talking about. "Margin." There's your magic word. "Markup" is irrelevant from an accounting standpoint. This national dealer friend of yours operates on a 30-40% gross margin on sales in the normal course of business, guaranteed, or I'll eat my hat.

[coinman_23885]

CAL who always has, and always will, tell it like it is...

 

Hard Times, who for the first time in his life, has referred to himself in the 3rd person.........

 

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/HowTo:Refer_to_Yourself_in_the_Third_Person

 

From the website above: "The tendency to refer to oneself in the third person is often viewed by psychologists as a symptom of narcissism. In order to learn how to effectively refer to yourself in the third person, it is often desirable to understand the narcissist mentality, and develop an ability to "role-play" as an actual narcissist. Needless to say, the comedic potential of having this ability cannot be overestimated, but there is also danger, in that you may inadvertently develop strong narcissistic tendencies in yourself without realizing it."

 

Uh-oh I am going nuts.

 

[Houston Investor]

Thanks Kurt. And I agree with MJ, Cal is OK (for sure). If it weren't for his posts I would just feel I had stepped on to another planet or something.

 

A couple of observations:

1. There are obviously people who have no clue what it takes to make it in the coin business. That is ok, it is not going to affect any offer I make them. They can take it or shop the coin around the bourse.

2. There are people who make poor buying decisions acquiring coins beyond their means. They will buy these coins at retail, be forced to sell at wholesale levels due to some unfavorable non controllable event, and then the shock (coins are a retail hobby not etrade).

2. I am tired of explaining to noobs about the math of the coin business. I have taught evening accounting classes in a local college while I was a Project Financial Controller for a major oil company. I have had freshman business students who had a better understanding of basic math and how to calculate gross margin plus understand this is just one of the first parts of the income statement than many here. A 30% margin (Gross Margin on Sales) equates to basically a markup over cost of 1.43 (rounded) - run it thru your calculator. Margin and markup are two entirely different things.

3. Buyback? I am under no obligation past any contractual return period. Past a return period (if any), all sales are final.. If a coin is offered to me, it is now a wholesale transaction - we are now in greysheet or bluesheet territory. I could offer a seller a percentage of what I think I can sell it for (at the desired margin) or simply pass by saying 5 magic words "not buying, lack of funds." It stops them dead in their tracks every time. If you really want to be cruel (not recommended) just say "no interest, phasing these out."

4. I have found the thread entertaining. The coin business can be brutal and a down market cycle unforgiving of mistakes - sort of like GTA Online where you have 15 people (human controlled players) in one lobby (virtual world that represents LA and surrounding areas) all trying to kill each other.

5. Big ticket numismatic coins can be very risky for a number of reasons and mainly an arena for the wealthy. Any numismatic portfolio should be leveraged between cash, coins, currency, bullion material, etc. I know of one dealer where cash is probably 40-50% of his coin business investment. No buying deals allowing instant profit, no show purchases. No retail sales, coins just sit there in his case. Nope, he is not worried about dealer buyback, who you think you are in coin land, or your opinion of him. I love his descriptions of how a show went "lots of heroes" (people buying and selling with him) or "bunch of zeros" hardly any buying / selling activity going on with him.

 

 

 

 

[MJ]

I will add that it's not uncommon for a dealer to pay 16k for a coin and turn around and sell it for 17k quickly. That's a skinny margin but a quick grand just the same. I've experienced this time and time again

 

Mark

[coinman_23885]

Based on experience, primarily my research, and conversation the industry average markup over CDN Bid is around 40% or around a margin of 30% (Gross Margin before costs of the business). This is simply the reality of running any retail business. More than one dealer I have shared tables with at shows have said "I just pay 60-70% of what I can sell it for."

What type of material do you sell? While a 30-40% markup might be normal for coins under $300 and dreck, for higher end coins like most here pursue, a markup that high would be absurd. I just purchased a $4500 coin from a large national dealer, and the markup was more along the lines of 5% on that particular transaction, with many others in the 10%-20% range for coins in the $1000-$2500 range.

You're talking through your hat. Aren't you listening to a thing he's saying? Why don't you go to Wikipedia and look up "margin" and see if you can figure out probably for the first time in your life what the difference between that and "markup" is. You're totally misunderstanding him because it's apparent you don't understand that term, much less appreciate the significance of it to a business. And dealers do go under margin all the time when they've got a pigeon on the wire because that coin isn't sitting on the shelf in the normal course of business, month-after-month. Your inferences are all fouled up because you don't understand the first thing about how to run a business. Just take this $4500 coin you say was marked up 5% from wholesale to this dealer. That would leave him with a 4.76% margin on his cost of goods sold. How in the heck is this dealer still in business operating on an income statement like that? Seller11 was telling you the numbers in the normal course of business, and he's right in there on those. You're citing atypical examples, if, indeed, you even know what you're talking about. "Margin." There's your magic word. "Markup" is irrelevant from an accounting standpoint. This national dealer friend of yours operates on a 30-40% gross margin on sales in the normal course of business, guaranteed, or I'll eat my hat.

 

Ok, I admit that in typing in haste, I used the term in-artfully. I do understand the difference, but I still find your argument to be one of semantics that misses the substance of what I am saying. On a coin he buys for $5000, he sells it for about $8325, for a gross profit of $3,325, margin of 40%, and a markup of about 66.5%. Assuming a 30% margin, he sells the same piece for about $7150 for a markup of about 43%. That strikes me as incredibly high. At auction, the seller would only pay the 10% buyer's fee at Great Collections, and would yield about $7500 or about $2500 higher after the firm gets its cut. Now granted, the dealer must pay overhead and expects some profit, but that strikes me as high given the tools at the seller's disposal including auction advances. If I recall correctly, when interested in buying another piece, one auction house (not GC) advanced me about 60% of FMV immediately to purchase the other piece, interest free, and of course I would (and did) receive the surplus. There are also options like Edelman's for secured loans. Why a seller would choose to sell at fire sale prices has truly piqued my curiosity from an intellectual/human behavior perspective. There are many dealers that work on a 10-20% margin so, yes, 2-3 times that number seems high to me.

 

I am also surprised that the people arguing about math also missed another important point to my post. I even stated that for lower end items, it might be more reasonable, but for higher end quality items, it was high. The math should be obvious. A dealer selling more expensive quality items can make substantially more money with a lower profit margin (percentage wise). Nevertheless, he stated that a number of sellers merely stated that they only pay 60% or so of what they can sell it for. On a $5000 coin, that translates to about $3000. That strikes me as low. My understanding is that in finance, investors expect a larger return for more risky investments. For a low end, cheap, common coin that might languish in inventory for years, I would absolutely expect a large margin. For coins that can be liquidated fairly quickly (in the matter of a couple of weeks or less) like gem Saints, I would expect a lower margin.

 

Please correct me where my understanding is flawed.

 

P.S. You and the others claiming superior business acumen also have very short sighted views of the subject matter. Seller 11 is correct that a dealer has no obligation to buyback the piece at all, much less at a specific price. You are, in my opinion, overlooking the importance of building a customer base and the human element. Coins are luxury items, and no one needs them. By offending or low balling your customers, you are killing any customer base that you might have. Dealers with strong customer bases have no problems moving inventory quickly. Those that don't have material that is harder to move.

 

In summary, you two are correct that this is the business and money is the ultimate goal; however, by being too short sighted, you probably hurt yourself. Put more simply, don't bite the hands that feed you or one day you will be left to starve.

[MarkFeld]

I will add that it's not uncommon for a dealer to pay 16k for a coin and turn around and sell it for 17k quickly. That's a skinny margin but a quick grand just the same. I've experienced this time and time again

 

Mark

 

I agree, the above is not at all uncommon. And ditto for a flip at half (or less) of that margin.

 

Remember, such trades are in addition to (not instead of) others at larger mark-ups.

[Hard Times]

Thanks Kurt. And I agree with MJ, Cal is OK (for sure). If it weren't for his posts I would just feel I had stepped on to another planet or something.

 

A couple of observations:

1. There are obviously people who have no clue what it takes to make it in the coin business. That is ok, it is not going to affect any offer I make them. They can take it or shop the coin around the bourse.

2. There are people who make poor buying decisions acquiring coins beyond their means. They will buy these coins at retail, be forced to sell at wholesale levels due to some unfavorable non controllable event, and then the shock (coins are a retail hobby not etrade).

2. I am tired of explaining to noobs about the math of the coin business. I have taught evening accounting classes in a local college while I was a Project Financial Controller for a major oil company. I have had freshman business students who had a better understanding of basic math and how to calculate gross margin plus understand this is just one of the first parts of the income statement than many here. A 30% margin (Gross Margin on Sales) equates to basically a markup over cost of 1.43 (rounded) - run it thru your calculator. Margin and markup are two entirely different things.

3. Buyback? I am under no obligation past any contractual return period. Past a return period (if any), all sales are final.. If a coin is offered to me, it is now a wholesale transaction - we are now in greysheet or bluesheet territory. I could offer a seller a percentage of what I think I can sell it for (at the desired margin) or simply pass by saying 5 magic words "not buying, lack of funds." It stops them dead in their tracks every time. If you really want to be cruel (not recommended) just say "no interest, phasing these out."

4. I have found the thread entertaining. The coin business can be brutal and a down market cycle unforgiving of mistakes - sort of like GTA Online where you have 15 people (human controlled players) in one lobby (virtual world that represents LA and surrounding areas) all trying to kill each other.

5. Big ticket numismatic coins can be very risky for a number of reasons and mainly an arena for the wealthy. Any numismatic portfolio should be leveraged between cash, coins, currency, bullion material, etc. I know of one dealer where cash is probably 40-50% of his coin business investment. No buying deals allowing instant profit, no show purchases. No retail sales, coins just sit there in his case. Nope, he is not worried about dealer buyback, who you think you are in coin land, or your opinion of him. I love his descriptions of how a show went "lots of heroes" (people buying and selling with him) or "bunch of zeros" hardly any buying / selling activity going on with him.

 

 

 

 

Any type of buisness, coin, haircuts, or whatever is about building trust and long term relationships. If you truly think that you will have dedicated return customers by selling at aggressive prices and buying back the same coins from your customers at wholesale for PQ coins for the grade, well, that customer won't be me. This is the kind of dealer I avoid.

 

I recently sold a coin to a prominent dealer for 3x wholesale. This dealer recognized the value of this piece and had no problem paying my ask price which was based on valuations from auction prices. CAC offered me just above wholesale for the same coin. The take home message here is that there are dealers who understand valuations and want long term customers. These dealers are doing very well - in fact, as MJ noted, sometimes they will flip a coin for ≤5% margin to a good customer because they know by building a strong relationship, and they will be aggressive in buying from their customers when warranted. It is all about trust and building a relationship. IMO HLRC missed a chance to do that with leeg in his time of need. It seems like you Seller 11, also miss many chances like this from your explanations above.

 

Best, HT

[World Colonial]

You pointed out the source of the difference of opinion between the two sides in this thread. You and others who share your opinion don't buy from the "typical" dealer and Seller11 and Cal sound like dealers who have "average" collectors as their customers. It's apples and oranges.

 

I don't buy much from dealers but don't see that most of them are in a position to offer a "buyback guarantee" and only those that sell material such as you buy can work on 5% to 20% mark-ups. This is probably 5% of the dealers who have maybe 90%+ of the affluent buyer's retail business, not including what goes through auctions. The rest of the dealers, they would be out of business in no time if they operated as you describe.

 

Any individual dealer can attempt to cater to the more affluent buyers such as yourself and use the business model you describe, but not all of them can and most are by necessity going to be forced to use the business model Seller 11 and Cal have described here. Most are going to have to sell to the low budget collector because there aren't enough affluent collectors for all dealers as you know. So what you are describing isn't anywhere near as easy as you appear to imply..

 

The prominent dealers that I see offerring the world coins I buy which only happens on occassion, they still aren't working on these mark-ups or at least I certainly don't believe they are based upon what I know or believe these coins are worth. The three I have in mind are CRO, Northeast Numismatics and Atlas Numismatics. Yes, some of the coins sit in inventory longer because they are less liquid but not always. Mostly, I just think they have high or relatively high mark-ups anyway, regardless of how quickly their inventory moves or not.

[coinman_23885]

You pointed out the source of the difference of opinion between the two sides in this thread. You and others who share your opinion don't buy from the "typical" dealer and Seller11 and Cal sound like dealers who have "average" collectors as their customers. It's apples and oranges.

 

I don't buy much from dealers but don't see that most of them are in a position to offer a "buyback guarantee" and only those that sell material such as you buy can work on 5% to 20% mark-ups. This is probably 5% of the dealers who have maybe 90%+ of the affluent buyer's retail business, not including what goes through auctions. The rest of the dealers, they would be out of business in no time if they operated as you describe.

 

Any individual dealer can attempt to cater to the more affluent buyers such as yourself and use the business model you describe, but not all of them can and most are by necessity going to be forced to use the business model Seller 11 and Cal have described here. Most are going to have to sell to the low budget collector because there aren't enough affluent collectors for all dealers as you know. So what you are describing isn't anywhere near as easy as you appear to imply..

 

The prominent dealers that I see offerring the world coins I buy which only happens on occassion, they still aren't working on these mark-ups or at least I certainly don't believe they are based upon what I know or believe these coins are worth. The three I have in mind are CRO, Northeast Numismatics and Atlas Numismatics. Yes, some of the coins sit in inventory longer because they are less liquid but not always. Mostly, I just think they have high or relatively high mark-ups anyway, regardless of how quickly their inventory moves or not.

 

Fair enough, but I think a dealer would want to be competitive and I don't see a margin or markups that high being competitive on better material. The one size fits all approach is lacking in my opinion. With a business model like that, better/more liquid coins would go elsewhere and you would be left with common coins or off quality materials (the latter I described as "dreck") that are difficult to move, and you are forced to work much harder to make money (and less money per transaction even with a higher margin). That doesn't strike me as a wise business model, especially when you lowball and/or offend your customers as they can easily move along and find the same quality materials at almost any coin show, local coin shop, or eBay.. To me, a more equitable (and wiser from a business perspective) is to have a tiered approach. Lower end and illiquid stuff would obviously require a larger margin, and perhaps even one that would price you out of the market on better, higher end materials (like the Seller11 approach).

[Houston Investor]

I can recall only one situation where I was offered a coin from a customer who had bought it from me probably a couple of years back. I ended up buying it back at more than he had originally paid (market impact). He did shop it around the bourse room then brought it back to me and I honored my offer. I guess I was high buyer....

 

I do believe in treating customers well and have had repeat business. The reality is there are hundreds of dealers in the room and thousands of items for them to choose from. They are under no obligation to buy from any one dealer.

 

So for me, buybacks from customers have been extremely rare. I guess they like their coins so much they don't want to part with them. I may sound tough here, but quite frankly for me its a sensitive situation so if a guy offers me a coin I sold him providing I want to spend the funds I give him a really competitive offer. But philosophy wise a dealer is under no obligation to buy back anything unless its somehow contractual.

 

I haven't sold coins or currency back to dealers much but my worst experience was a guy who made fun of the item (he had sold me) saying "my gosh who graded this?" , He then said "I can't believe they holdered this. Sorry no interest - send it to Teletrade or else just throw it back in the roll." After that I never offered coins to dealers again. Shortly after that, I started taking tables at shows and took responsibility for any purchases I regretted. Many times I shared tables with a mentor and friend from the coin club as we basically did the same kind of material - mostly quality investment grade certified coins.

[coinman_23885]

I can recall only one situation where I was offered a coin from a customer who had bought it from me probably a couple of years back. I ended up buying it back at more than he had originally paid (market impact). He did shop it around the bourse room then brought it back to me and I honored my offer. I guess I was high buyer....

 

I do believe in treating customers well and have had repeat business. The reality is there are hundreds of dealers in the room and thousands of items for them to choose from. They are under no obligation to buy from any one dealer.

 

So for me, buybacks from customers have been extremely rare. I guess they like their coins so much they don't want to part with them. I may sound tough here, but quite frankly for me its a sensitive situation so if a guy offers me a coin I sold him providing I want to spend the funds I give him a really competitive offer. But philosophy wise a dealer is under no obligation to buy back anything unless its somehow contractual.

 

I haven't sold coins or currency back to dealers much but my worst experience was a guy who made fun of the item (he had sold me) saying "my gosh who graded this?" , He then said "I can't believe they holdered this. Sorry no interest - send it to Teletrade or else just throw it back in the roll." After that I never offered coins to dealers again. Shortly after that, I started taking tables at shows and took responsibility for any purchases I regretted. Many times I shared tables with a mentor and friend from the coin club as we basically did the same kind of material - mostly quality investment grade certified coins.

 

It is amusing that you add something new every time I start to comment on your last post above.

 

Look, I have no interest in bickering with you at all. I think it is fair to say, we disagree on at least some aspects of the business decision at hand. I comment now only to point out that no one claimed he was obligated to take back the coin legally/contractually. Rather, all of those opining differently than you were commenting on the long term (as opposed to short term) business ramifications, which inevitably implicates a human element. Also, what you posted above is a far cry from what you posted earlier in this thread.

[Kurtdog]

Based on experience, primarily my research, and conversation the industry average markup over CDN Bid is around 40% or around a margin of 30% (Gross Margin before costs of the business). This is simply the reality of running any retail business. More than one dealer I have shared tables with at shows have said "I just pay 60-70% of what I can sell it for."

What type of material do you sell? While a 30-40% markup might be normal for coins under $300 and dreck, for higher end coins like most here pursue, a markup that high would be absurd. I just purchased a $4500 coin from a large national dealer, and the markup was more along the lines of 5% on that particular transaction, with many others in the 10%-20% range for coins in the $1000-$2500 range.

You're talking through your hat. Aren't you listening to a thing he's saying? Why don't you go to Wikipedia and look up "margin" and see if you can figure out probably for the first time in your life what the difference between that and "markup" is. You're totally misunderstanding him because it's apparent you don't understand that term, much less appreciate the significance of it to a business. And dealers do go under margin all the time when they've got a pigeon on the wire because that coin isn't sitting on the shelf in the normal course of business, month-after-month. Your inferences are all fouled up because you don't understand the first thing about how to run a business. Just take this $4500 coin you say was marked up 5% from wholesale to this dealer. That would leave him with a 4.76% margin on his cost of goods sold. How in the heck is this dealer still in business operating on an income statement like that? Seller11 was telling you the numbers in the normal course of business, and he's right in there on those. You're citing atypical examples, if, indeed, you even know what you're talking about. "Margin." There's your magic word. "Markup" is irrelevant from an accounting standpoint. This national dealer friend of yours operates on a 30-40% gross margin on sales in the normal course of business, guaranteed, or I'll eat my hat.

Ok, I admit that in typing in haste, I used the term in-artfully. I do understand the difference, but I still find your argument to be one of semantics that misses the substance of what I am saying. On a coin he buys for $5000, he sells it for about $8325, for a gross profit of $3,325, margin of 40%, and a markup of about 66.5%. Assuming a 30% margin, he sells the same piece for about $7150 for a markup of about 43%. That strikes me as incredibly high. At auction, the seller would only pay the 10% buyer's fee at Great Collections, and would yield about $7500 or about $2500 higher after the firm gets its cut. Now granted, the dealer must pay overhead and expects some profit, but that strikes me as high given the tools at the seller's disposal including auction advances. If I recall correctly, when interested in buying another piece, one auction house (not GC) advanced me about 60% of FMV immediately to purchase the other piece, interest free, and of course I would (and did) receive the surplus. There are also options like Edelman's for secured loans. Why a seller would choose to sell at fire sale prices has truly piqued my curiosity from an intellectual/human behavior perspective. There are many dealers that work on a 10-20% margin so, yes, 2-3 times that number seems high to me.

 

I am also surprised that the people arguing about math also missed another important point to my post. I even stated that for lower end items, it might be more reasonable, but for higher end quality items, it was high. The math should be obvious. A dealer selling more expensive quality items can make substantially more money with a lower profit margin (percentage wise). Nevertheless, he stated that a number of sellers merely stated that they only pay 60% or so of what they can sell it for. On a $5000 coin, that translates to about $3000. That strikes me as low. My understanding is that in finance, investors expect a larger return for more risky investments. For a low end, cheap, common coin that might languish in inventory for years, I would absolutely expect a large margin. For coins that can be liquidated fairly quickly (in the matter of a couple of weeks or less) like gem Saints, I would expect a lower margin.

 

Please correct me where my understanding is flawed.

 

P.S. You and the others claiming superior business acumen also have very short sighted views of the subject matter. Seller 11 is correct that a dealer has no obligation to buyback the piece at all, much less at a specific price. You are, in my opinion, overlooking the importance of building a customer base and the human element. Coins are luxury items, and no one needs them. By offending or low balling your customers, you are killing any customer base that you might have. Dealers with strong customer bases have no problems moving inventory quickly. Those that don't have material that is harder to move.

 

In summary, you two are correct that this is the business and money is the ultimate goal; however, by being too short sighted, you probably hurt yourself. Put more simply, don't bite the hands that feed you or one day you will be left to starve.

OK, now we're talking. Kenny, in a nut, they have to cover their overhead. Thus, it depends on what that is. If the dealer is cutting that to the bone, he'll have lower margins. If he's extravagant, or looking for a bigger margin on the profit end, his gross margin will be bigger.

 

I just want to address one other thing you said, then have to shove off. Tell me, where did I even so much as imply I'm unaware it's good business practice to give good customers breaks? Casinos send private jets for their good customers. Let the record reflect, we have no issue, there. Thanks.

[Houston Investor]

What are you coin man 23885 - the thread police ?

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

What are you coin man 23885 - the thread police ?

 

 

Why do you find it necessary to belittle? Do you believe doing so adds superiority to your position?

Your choice of phrasing and explaining your philosophy can be achieved without any tough guy act. You call it telling it like it is. Some would call it haughty.

You did in fact change gears in your philosophy. He guestions this change.

Truth be told, your position has changed a couple of times, but there is nothing wrong with that.

It is not hard to be courteous. It is lack of self respect when one chooses not to have manners.

[coinman_23885]

What are you coin man 23885 - the thread police ?

 

 

No, but I believe people should stand by their comments and not make substantive changes unless they are clearly marked as edited. Selectively editing posts is disingenuous at best in my opinion. Your last post is also substantively different from your statements in the past, and it effectively misrepresents the opinions of others in my opinion. It also comes off as a pathetic attempt at damage control.

 

Also, as I said before, for someone who brags about their putative business acumen, you have a very short-sighted approach. Anyone who has ever run a successful business that lasts will tell you that building a strong customer base and business relationships are important. So you can treat potential clients coldly and dismiss them as you see fit, but you kill a customer base that might have been reliable. This is very important in a thinly capitalized industry with fickle markets.

 

What are you coin man 23885 - the thread police ?

 

 

Why do you find it necessary to belittle? Do you believe doing so adds superiority to your position?

Your choice of phrasing and explaining your philosophy can be achieved without any tough guy act. You call it telling it like it is. Some would call it haughty.

You did in fact change gears in your philosophy. He guestions this change.

Truth be told, your position has changed a couple of times, but there is nothing wrong with that.

It is not hard to be courteous. It is lack of self respect when one chooses not to have manners.

 

I think the tough guy image that some posters attempt to exude is largely due to a perceived cloak of anonymity that the Internet provides.

 

Nevertheless, since Seller11 has pretty much given me the title of forum police, I thought a little sleuthing was in order to answer my questions posed previously. Seller11, is this your store information? The owner has a master's degree from a state school in accounting, and the rest of the description fits your M.O. The DNS of your domain name also appears to be linked to your email address. The eBay page also touts that you sell "quality rare coins and currency" that are "investment grade."

 

Creekside Tangible Assets of Friendsworth, TX

http://directory.coinworld.com/listing/claim/creekside-tangible-assets-535b9fdcdce6c

 

eBay: cta-coins

http://www.ebay.com/usr/cta-coins

http://stores.ebay.com/Creekside-Tangible-Assets

 

As a disclaimer, I am in no way knocking your inventory or those that collect those items. Nevertheless, it does reveal a lot about our exchange and actually makes my point. If this is your store, out of the 109 items listed, all but three are priced at below $300. And the rest are esoteric modern foreign bank notes. And the completed items, which I understand goes back for 90 days, shows a single sale above $300. Many of the coins you are selling are generic, blast white coins in MS63-MS64 or below like common date Peace Dollars, Morgan Dollars, and Liberty Walking Half Dollars. And then you have MS/PF 69-70 moderns commemoratives, some of which are in ICG holders which are pretty much treated as raw in this market. Coupled with what I feel are high asking prices, I can genuinely say that I wouldn't even pay half of your asking prices on some of the coins, and this is the type of stuff that I would shove in a no reserve $1 auction on eBay to increase cash flow. In fairness, I would pass on a good number of them without making an offer at all. Perhaps you misunderstood the part where I stated that larger markups and margins were justified on less liquid items.

 

The point of all of this, is that if this is representative of your inventory, none of the items are even in the same league as the OP's coin, so I think the application of your business model to it is off. I also find it ridiculous that you accused the OP and those that disagreed with you of whining and crying when it is obvious (in my opinion) that the OP and most of the regular posters here participate in a very different segment of the market all together, and your business experience is pretty much irrelevant to coins of that caliber. You also questioned my business and math knowledge, which seems very odd since you really have no experience dealing with the market that I would choose if I opened up a dealership. The type of dealers that have material representative of what were are talking about are along the lines of Pinnacle, Legend, Aspen Park, David Lawrence, Doug Winter, Rick Snow, and a number of those affiliated with the PNG (which by virtue of its capitalization requirements) naturally tend toward higher end, investment quality coins.

 

And again, I hope my remarks don't come off as disparaging or elitist; they are not. Rather, they reflect the realities of the current market. Better material is continuing to push higher, while lesser end material languishes and is depreciating.

[Houston Investor]

Well go buy from them then, if that is your market reality (I have sold off almost all my classic coins gone to mods and currency). Better pick it up while its still so undervalued. And better hurry too, one huge really well off (with billions to spend) buyer on fire to buy it could take it all or at least put a huge dent in supply

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Well go buy from them then, if that is your market reality. Better pick it up while its still so undervalued. And better hurry too, one huge really well off buyer on fire to buy it could take it all.....

 

Sheesh....you are who you are, I suppose.

Sometimes courtesy is a hard thing to learn.

[jerseycat10]

This thread outlived its usefulness long ago, and needs to be locked or removed.

[coinman_23885]

This thread outlived its usefulness long ago, and needs to be locked or removed.

 

Why should it be removed? There is nothing wrong with our exchange, and I think every poster's post should be left. Everyone can then draw their own conclusions. With the exception of Cal's libel aside, the other issues are germane to the question of what constitutes a fair offer.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

This thread outlived its usefulness long ago, and needs to be locked or removed.

 

I note it survives to pg. 20, before you decision of its usefulness is shared.

 

What may or may not be useful to others may be different from you or I.

 

There are a few Posts, in my opinion, where your thoughts and support for removal of certain Posts would have possibly been a helpful suggestion. Heck, it may have included a Post or 2 by me. I do wonder at waiting until pg. 20, to come to that conclusion, though. I assume you have either read through the entire Thread or kept up as the Posts went on.

 

My opinion is that a thread or Post is never useless, as long as parameters of manners and courtesy are exhibited in the Post.

 

I think most are able to police themselves.

[Kurtdog]

This thread outlived its usefulness long ago, and needs to be locked or removed.

What are you, a policeman?

[Afterword]

I responded to the only aspects of the thread that were of interest to me, but I am not a dealer and I do not buy from dealers. I can, however, understand why the two parties referenced above would find this thread of interest - although many of the posts seem to lean more towards ethics and business strategies rather than true numismatic interests.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[copper toning]

I just read this entire thread and it's usefulness was outlived once the OP accomplished his goal to out and bash the seller.

 

I can't count how many times I have read if you want to know what your coins are worth you have to occasionally sell to a dealer. The buyback was respectable. Especially considering the dealer had to inventory list and market the coin not to mention taxes overhead ect.

 

So long as the dealer sells quality coins the majority of buyers will return. Besides this was one instance and we cannot know how the majority of situations are handled.

 

I don't know if this was libelous or not but it was in poor taste. I will say it is sad that some posters have to worry how they respond to every thread out of fear. One poster stated he did not know when the forum became so judicial ( he probably used a more intellectual term) yet he has been at the core since I've been here. These things really suck the life out of the hobby

[coinman_23885]

One poster stated he did not know when the forum became so judicial ( he probably used a more intellectual term) yet he has been at the core since I've been here. These things really suck the life out of the hobby

 

You are being incredibly unfair to that poster who happens to be me. I can only think of two or three times when I have introduced (as in initiated) legal topics into a thread. The first was a thread entitled "near counterfeit" that necessarily implicates federal law including the Hobby Protection Act, which by the nature of the topic is inescapable. The second was on the Langbord threads, which is about a court case so if you really want answers about the likely trajectory of a case, you need to actually understand what is truly going on rather than an inadequate gloss from most message boards or inadequate summary in a coin periodical. And third, someone recommended posting to a review site to accuse dealers of ripping them off, which I cautioned against (or at least advised caution in the wording) to be nice. I won't make the mistake of being nice again, as I really have no reason to care whether someone crosses the line between expressing an honest opinion and making false statements implying wrong doing or unethical behavior.

 

On another note the word I used was "litigious" or "sue happy." If you actually took the time to read my posts, you would see this is not the case. On a number of threads, it has been other posters that appear sue happy, and I am simply trying to set the record straight. Cal accused Leeg of libel, and I spoke in favor of Leeg and against the party that was being sue happy. In another thread, someone suggested suing a TPG over a mechanical error, and I came out in opposition to the party suggesting legal action. So how is it that I have killed the joy of those threads by correcting other posters who have suggested legal action? I am actually the one who has spoken against litigious positions, and am very conservative in what I see as justifiable litigation.

 

P.S. Did you also miss the part where I agreed that the original offer was not unreasonable? The $2000 figure also included about $100 of sales tax that the dealer never saw, so it was more like a $1450 offer on a $1900 coin (at purchase price) in a poorer market.

[Calamerica]

I will stand by my bizarre comment earlier.

 

Cal is OK IMO

 

Mark

 

 

Thanx! Another voice of reason in a place where the worse outnumber the better...

 

CAL who knows who is who by what they type...

[Calamerica]

I can't believe I just read this entire thread! Funny how they go off track, on rare occasions ;-)

After getting through the whole mess, seems to me that Cal just stated the truth, but from a "too straightforward" stance. Had he stated the same thing, with a little "sugar coating", the thread would have ended a few pages ago...

 

With all due respect, for someone who has read this entire thread, you missed quite a bit. Cal errantly accused the OP of libel, which is far from the truth unless you completely disregard the definition of libel and tort law. And Cal then proceeded to attack members of this thread personally. Up until that point, this thread was faily civil, including my discourse with Seller11.

 

Someone better re-read this entire thread.

 

I did NOT attack someone first, as it is written( ahem...LIBEL) here.

 

I retaliated as is my M.O. when a keyboard is where the fight takes place.

 

People don't talk to me that way in real life. Trust me on that.

 

But others in this Thread has:

 

1) called the Mods on me...

2) called me a d-bag in a poor, masked attempt, and it was another apology post from... well, read it yourselves...

3) has referenced to the world that no one should do business with me BASED ON THIS ONE THREAD;

4) has accused me of being small-minded and can't comprehend others posts...

5) other flamed posts with no real substance; extremely juvenile-like. What do you expect from a Anon Board( for those who do not know, an ANON Board is where there are no requirements to give actual names in order to post).

 

The Coinees are going to be much craftier smarter than the Comics folks; the Coinees aren't going to keep baiting me, or threaten me with bodily harm like a few of the brainless FanBoys( and a few FanGirls too), and keep telling me on one post that my Iron Man comic is retarded but post somewhere else how lucky I am that I am making great $$$ off of my lifetime obsession of collecting over 5,000 of the ONE ISSUE.

 

I am not expecting LeeG to get my phone number and ask me to fly to Virginia or wherever he lives and get into a WWF smack down.

 

I am not expecting Mr. KnowItAll( Mr. McKnowItAll) to email/PM me to play Trivia Crack or play me in a Poker game. He knows better.

 

I am not expecting Mr Walker to do anything of any kind to me or anyone else ; he can't explain his position and to do so now is a pure backpedal to...where???

 

Getting old having people stir the pot and can't do it right. At least get the FACTS straight, and make a level playing field: if you call someone out for an "infraction", call everyone out. Oh, too easy? I see. Better to have a"dog in this fight". So be it.

 

Stay tuned.

 

CAL who uses his 3rd person schtick just to drive them bonkers... and IT WORKS!!!