Pics of my 4 Recent Downgrades From pcgs, and Yes, I can No Longer Post There.

[dragon]

Perhaps some of you read my post at that other coin forum where I picked out 3 previously graded pcgs and 1 NGC really sharp PQ coins to submit to pcgs while at the same time rejoining their collectors club. I was later shocked to see online that they downgraded all 4 coins and also damaged (scratched) one of them as part of the deal. In any case, many people have been asking to see pics of the coins so here they are. If anyone would like to repost these pics for the anxious croud in that other forum please feel free.

 

 

Here was my original post, followed by a few cell phone pics of the actual coins which were received back today.

 

 

Rejoined Collectors Club, Cracked Out 3 PQ+ PCGS (1 NGC) Coins to Send in, and Got 4 DOWNGRADES

 

 

dragon

Master Collector

 

Posts: 7566

Joined: Mar 2001

Thursday March 19, 2015 5:34 PM

 

 

 

Coin 1) Cracked out a really sharp 1921-P Morgan PCGS MS65 that I felt was really nice for the grade and should at least go 65+, now it a 64

 

 

Coin 2) Cracked out a really sharp fully prooflike 1921-D Morgan that was nearly a borderline DMPL as 21-D's go, lost the PL and it dropped a full grade point too. This one was a previous NGC 64PL and PCGS 64PL.

 

 

Coin 3) A super nice 1880-S in a 66 PCGS holder that had extreme cameo contrast and 10+ eye appeal, should've at least gone 66+, was also a previous NGC 66+*, just got graded a 65.

 

 

Coin 4) Another super nice heavy cameo 1880-S that was also a 66 that is as nice or better than 5 or 6 other 80-S coins I have in 67. This one seemed to be an easy upgrade. Just got graded 65+.

 

 

 

And to add insult to injury, this little ordeal cost me over $200.00 with the round trip postage in addition to these ridiculous grades (downgrades). In 28+ yrs. of submitting and occasionally resubmitting coins to PCGS, I've only once many years back had a coin downgrade only later to go back up 2 points. When I just checked online and saw the grades my first response was I pulled up the wrong page or something, then I just sat here in disbelief with a rapid heartbeat. I feel like I've just been the victim of a 3rd party grading crime, gross incompetence, or maybe just 4 clerical errors. Talk about a waste of time AND money. I'll post pics when they return unless I'm banned beforehand. I am SO done with PCGS.

 

 

...and the pics:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bochiman]

Welcome to the NGC boards, Dragon.

I've always admired your morgans!

 

Sorry to hear how this round went. Definitely feel the pain with you (though, mine were on much lower scales...still painful, but nowhere near the same level).

 

Thoughts on what you will do now? Resubmit? Stop for awhile to regroup?

[mommam17]

Nice coins. Sorry for the loss.

[Kurtdog]

Resubmit? I'd resubmit. After I cracked them out I'd resubmit the plastic with a note telling them what they can do with it.

[bsshog40]

I did read the post ats also. Sorry for the downgrades.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Sorry to hear of your ordeal. And hopefully this story will have a good end result through getting the best advice on how to proceed at this point. PCGS forums does re-instate people's posting privileges through communication with their management, many people have been able to post there again after a temporary lapse in time. I know you are going through a painful time now so hope you get the best encouragement out there, everyone in numismatics has been down this road at one time at least.

[Hard Times]

You said they scratched one of them? Which one, what does the scratch look like?

 

Best, HT

[MJ]

I think you have zero recourse at this point but to resubmit. You will be missed ATS

 

Mark

[Raisethis2]

Your experience just goes to prove how subjective grading can be and illustrates that some things can change in numismatics at any given moment. The whole reason for third party grading is to instill consistency. If it was suppose to be a crapshoot they should be in the casino business.

 

I'm not very encouraged about my (pending) results after seeing your trainwreck of a submission.

 

I also find it particularly chicken shjt that management across the street wrings their hands and applies the banhammer anytime a member is critical of the company.

 

World class companies aren't paranoid. They lead and continue to strive to do better.

[coinman_23885]

I think you have zero recourse at this point but to resubmit.

 

Mark

 

I don't think he should resubmit. Even if the coins upgraded, given the value of the coin, I couldn't personally justify the expenditure of an extra $200. On the other hand, OP, you could submit these to CAC in hopes of a gold bean. You might be surprised and it be a wash. Stranger things have happened.

[MJ]

I think you have zero recourse at this point but to resubmit.

 

Mark

 

I don't think he should resubmit. Even if the coins upgraded, given the value of the coin, I couldn't personally justify the expenditure of an extra $200. On the other hand, OP, you could submit these to CAC in hopes of a gold bean. You might be surprised and it be a wash. Stranger things have happened.

 

He could try the CAC angle. Would have to gold bean and that ain't easy. I would for sure resubmit otherwise given the potential on just one of the coins.

 

Mark

[bochiman]

I think you have zero recourse at this point but to resubmit.

 

Mark

 

I don't think he should resubmit. Even if the coins upgraded, given the value of the coin, I couldn't personally justify the expenditure of an extra $200. On the other hand, OP, you could submit these to CAC in hopes of a gold bean. You might be surprised and it be a wash. Stranger things have happened.

 

Someone, (Dragon?) can correct me if I am wrong, but I recall reading that one of those coins getting downgraded was ~$2000 drop in guide price/value. That would certainly be worth $200 to get it done right, again.

 

And, like you mention, I would also look at CAC, as, if it does get the gold, it could be valued at the higher price without a resubmission....to the right person willing to take the chance.

[jpcienkus]

Sorry to hear about your recent grading results. Your Morgans look gorgeous.

 

Which Morgan did they scratch?

[coinman_23885]

I don't think he should resubmit. Even if the coins upgraded, given the value of the coin, I couldn't personally justify the expenditure of an extra $200. On the other hand, OP, you could submit these to CAC in hopes of a gold bean. You might be surprised and it be a wash. Stranger things have happened.

 

Someone, (Dragon?) can correct me if I am wrong, but I recall reading that one of those coins getting downgraded was ~$2000 drop in guide price/value. That would certainly be worth $200 to get it done right, again.

 

And, like you mention, I would also look at CAC, as, if it does get the gold, it could be valued at the higher price without a resubmission....to the right person willing to take the chance.

 

I missed that the 1921-D was in a PL holder, and I also didn't realize that it was a condition rarity in PL at MS64. I was wrong on that coin and would resubmit it.

[Glossy]

Your experience just goes to prove how subjective grading can be and illustrates that some things can change in numismatics at any given moment. The whole reason for third party grading is to instill consistency. If it was suppose to be a crapshoot they should be in the casino business.

 

I'm not very encouraged about my (pending) results after seeing your trainwreck of a submission.

 

I also find it particularly chicken shjt that management across the street wrings their hands and applies the banhammer anytime a member is critical of the company.

 

World class companies aren't paranoid. They lead and continue to strive to do better.

 

Excellent points.

[RWB]

Such is the risk of cracking out coins and resubmitting them. It's unfortunate that this happened and the OP is upset, but the OP accepted the responsibility and expense when the coins were resubmitted.

 

 

[AHFreak]

Well I'll be honest, I was reading your post and thinking. .. "yeah, sure it was better than your 67's" and, "of course it was a DMPL" u know a little bit skeptical. The whole ownership adds a point deal. .. then I saw your pics which perked me right up... my eyes got big as something like an, "oh wow" fell out of my mouth... then I read what some of these veterans around here had to say in their replies. (I'm relatively new around here).

 

It seems to me like you very well could have gotten the "newbie" over there to "grade" your coins. I took an ANA grading class recently and that is actually something that came up was about new graders tend to be afraid of over grading, so they do will do exactly the opposite without realizing it, sometimes grossly so which it seems to be the case here. (Grossly undergraded coins)

 

I think you got screwed, it sucks for sure.

 

HOWEVER, this is the game. . U have to resubmit those coins. If it were me, I'd submit them to the same insufficiently_thoughtful_persons because it will feel better when they come back the way they should. .. Which according to your 28+ years expirience will be an extreme difference from the results this time. Then post those new results, here and ATS if possible by then., which if not I'm sure someone would be willing for you. I think it would be perfect and maybe help educate someone over there about how "superior" they really are over ATS. My vote if it counts, would be to take a deep breath, remind yourself of why you play this game in the first place, crack em out and send em back. . Yeah $200 is alot of money, but if it wasn't worth it you wouldn't have done it in the first place, only now there is even more to gain... much more apparently From the sounds of it anyways. .. Do it.

 

 

I have a friend who like you has 30 years exp playing the game and just a couple weeks ago I told him I had a coin in x grade. . he said bring it to me I want it. I said, well it's still at the graders. I haven't gotten it back. He said well then how do u know the grade? I said because I know how to grade and it's a "no questions asked" x... he literally just started laughing at me. He said you are in for a whole lot of heartache boy. He told me that he couldn't even count the number of times he bought a 66 "knowing for sure" it's a solid 67 just to crack it and send it only to have it come back a whopping 64... he said it has happened countless times and that if u know your coin, and u know what u know, then you just gotta play the game. .. so play it.

 

In the meantime dragon, if you decide you want to sell any of those Morgans, please let me know as I'd be more than happy to try to make u feel better by paying full retail according to what's on the label. .. HAHAHA.. .

 

GOOD LUCK ON THE SECOND GO ROUND

[AHFreak]

Oh yeah, the coin I told him was x came back a 66cam.... ok this is a 1965 SMS Kennedy half from the die pair that made the B&W monster deep cameo's.. a 66 Cam. That's a 150 dollar coin on a good day. The second trip to the graders it got the x grade that I "knew it was" which happened to be a 67 DCAM... a 65 sms Ken in 67DC is up there around 50X's the value of a "66cam" for that particular coin.

 

In case anyone was wondering

[Raisethis2]

If I were OP I'd get out the hammer and start cracking because the coins have a better chance raw than in those holders. I'd keep the labels however.

 

One option however would be to bring them to a major show where PCGS principals are present, show them the coins, explain the history and wait for an explanation.

 

Be polite about it.

[Nutmeg Coin]

It is impossible to make accurate judgments on these without professional before and after images, I'm not doubting the story line presented, just that anyone who has spent any time in any legal matter realizes how imperative evidence is to establish your case, which is impossible to do here with off the cuff stories and images. I used an ICTA free grading voucher once and the grades were less than usual, I'm not saying there is any connection between what you pay and what you get for grades or that any submitter gets better grades or treatment, but it doesn't hurt to submit coins through top submitters and at the right time.

[Prethen]

You could build a case with PCGS with the scratched coin (which one was scratched and how badly) if you took very good pictures of the coin while it was in their holder. Of course, they could dispute and say that you post-processed the scratch to not show.

 

It's very sad if they did damage the coin since that would mean an instant loss of value and eye appeal. Although, I got to wonder how they might have scratched a coin to begin with since their environment should be fairly safe, especially when dealing with the thousands of coins they have to grade.

 

I don't think you have much choice but to resubmit. The alternative is to sell the coins in their current holders and at much lower evaluations or you try to convince a potential buyer why their paying for a higher grade then the "coveted" holder shows.

 

Personally, I hate the grading game and I've failed at it myself in the past.

[jom]

Personally, I hate the grading game and I've failed at it myself in the past.

 

I've learn this lesson some time ago with a certain half eagle I once owned. The only coins I've sent in recently have been for the PCGS crossover and some raw Kennendy's I had to use up some vouchers.

 

The "game" is mostly a waste of money, IMO.

 

jom

[coinsbygary]

Such is the risk of cracking out coins and resubmitting them. It's unfortunate that this happened and the OP is upset, but the OP accepted the responsibility and expense when the coins were resubmitted.

 

 

Personally, this thread is why I don't do crack-outs. The risk involved is something that I am super hesitant to take on for myself. Others may, but I may not. Granted, if you can justify it, there is opportunity for reward but the reverse is also true. In my opinion re-submits and especially crack-outs are a roll of the dice.

 

One of the things that I think is at the root of third-party grading standards and re-submits is that TPG's guaranty the grade of the coin. This in my opinion is a double-edged sword. It protects the submitter giving him or her confidence in the grade they receive but it also makes the TPG hesitant to issue a higher grade especially when the next grade higher could run in the thousands of dollars of valuation.

Gary

[Afterword]

Such is the risk of cracking out coins and resubmitting them. It's unfortunate that this happened and the OP is upset, but the OP accepted the responsibility and expense when the coins were resubmitted.

 

 

 

 

 

It really is just that simple.

 

I would only add that the OP has no one to blame but himself.

[MarkFeld]

Such is the risk of cracking out coins and resubmitting them. It's unfortunate that this happened and the OP is upset, but the OP accepted the responsibility and expense when the coins were resubmitted.

 

 

 

 

 

It really is just that simple.

 

I would only add that the OP has no one to blame but himself.

 

I agree IF the coins were graded accurately. Hypothetically, if someone cracks coins out of their holders and the grading company is blatantly tough on the coins, the submitter does have someone else to blame.

[dragon]

Thanks for all the comments to this thread, as I am hopeful that this subject gets the maximum amount of attention on every viable coin and collectibles related forum.

 

I would also like to just clarify a couple things (mostly for the armchair quarterback contingent at that other forum which I asked to be deleted from.

 

 

 

a) I have no intention of cracking out or resubmitting any of the 4 coins involved. In fact, part of my actions of recourse will require that the coins remain in their current holders.

 

b) After receiving the package back, I noticed that one of the coins in the submission (1921-D) had been scratched while in the possession of the grading company which I'm confident accounted for the numerical downgrade, however not the loss of the prooflike designation.

 

c) As a normally calm, laid back and logically thinking individual, I am going out of my way to make a big fuss in this instance because I feel that the grading service not only damaged my property, but also assigned grades to my coins completely inconsistent with their standards, and at least 2 of these coins were previously very recently graded in their newest generation acrylic holders. This clearly demonstrates that grading standards can and do change in very short order.

 

 

d) I've been a collector for 40+ yrs. and have been submitting coins pretty much since the inception of 3rd party grading going all the way back to the earliest ANACS photo grading certs. This particular submission IMO falls way, way beyond the usual "opinions can and do change" mantra and I intend to pursue this incident to a satisfactory resolution for me. These corporations that charge a hefty fee for a "professional" opinion and tout themselves as 'The Standard of the Industry' have to have at least a shred of accountability IMO and also not damage peoples coins while in their care.

 

 

e) As seen in even my low quality cell phone pics, these were pretty sharp and high end pieces IMO, and the fact that all 4 downgraded tells me something is just not right here. I think someone would be hard pressed to pick out even 4 basically random to low end quality recently graded certified coins and have them ALL downgraded in one subsequent submission.

 

 

f) None of these were particularly expensive coins in either their previous or current grades and the subsequent downgrade of all 4 and why I intend to pursue this to the fullest and give it the most exposure possible is because I feel my order was handled incompetently in more ways than one, and management at that corporation has chosen not to address the matter or offer any type of reasonable resolution.

 

[Conder101]

They didn't downgrade them. The OP says he cracked them out. When he did he threw any previous grading history out the window and was just submitting four raw coins. Being four "raw" coins they couldn't "downgrade".

 

If they had been sent in for regrade still in the slab (Crossover for the NGC) they either would not have downgraded, or if they did he would have been compensated for the value loss.

 

Grading is always subjective and even a "No question X" coin may not make X on any given day, ad it might make better then X the next day. Submitting coins is always a crapshoot.

[Afterword]

The whole idea behind cracking coins out of their holders is based on the known inconsistency of coin grading. If you crack a coin out of its holder in hopes of getting a better grade, you should accept the possibility that you may get a lower grade instead.

 

If you play with fire, you do not blame the fire when you get burnt.

 

[MarkFeld]

The whole idea behind cracking coins out of their holders is based on the known inconsistency of coin grading. If you crack a coin out of its holder in hopes of getting a better grade, you should accept the possibility that you may get a lower grade instead.

 

If you play with fire, you do not blame the fire when you get burnt.

 

It depends upon the nature of the grading. If you cracked a group of four MS66 Kennedy halves out of their holders and they were all returned to you graded MS63, would you say the grading company should be let off the hook, entirely? What if they graded AU58? What if they were newly damaged?

 

The above far fetched examples from above, aside, my point is that cracking coins out of holders shouldn't automatically absolve a grading company of all responsibility.

[Afterword]

The whole idea behind cracking coins out of their holders is based on the known inconsistency of coin grading. If you crack a coin out of its holder in hopes of getting a better grade, you should accept the possibility that you may get a lower grade instead.

 

If you play with fire, you do not blame the fire when you get burnt.

 

It depends upon the nature of the grading. If you cracked a group of four MS66 Kennedy halves out of their holders and they were all returned to you graded MS63, would you say the grading company should be let off the hook, entirely? What if they graded AU58? What if they were newly damaged?

 

The above far fetched examples from above, aside, my point is that cracking coins out of holders shouldn't automatically absolve a grading company of all responsibility.

 

 

 

 

If you are not trying to game the system, I would agree. If you are trying to game the system, you are not acting in good faith. Any responsibility on the part of the grading company is null and void.