• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

1864-S $10 Straight grades contrary to collectors' judgment

38 posts in this topic

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/does-it-grade-1864-s-10-liberty.256514/

 

I was not really surprised on this one. And it shows that the coin really needed to get into a numerical holder else it could have been sold to a low-ball buyer claiming it was a "problem" coin and therefore worth considerably less.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But are the scratches really that of a demerit in terms of what the coin is? How did they come to be, deliberately or by accident? All kinds of marks happen to the surfaces of coins in bags, being handled through generations, etc.. I remember an 1875-cc $20 that was clearly unc. but uncertified, but with a big gash on the obverse on liberty. A well known coin buyer expert bought the coin and most likely got it into "the holder" as they say and a 60 is worth well over GS while an Unc. details coin would not be that salable. I'm sure the seasoned experts and graders at the services make those tough judgments every day based on what is market acceptable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the piece is a huge embarrassment for NGC. I do not believe that the coin should have graded with a straight numerical grade with the huge gouge on the obverse and the large scratches on the reverse.

 

I am sure the coin will sell for a very deep discount when it comes time to sell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If it goes to auction, as it should let the market decide at what price they like it. I have seen super rare coins get graded that look butt ugly and problem coins, but they get straight graded at the major services. Certainly those who buy them based on what the coins are know what they are doing and they take the numerical grade into account or with a few grains of salt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If it goes to auction, as it should let the market decide at what price they like it. I have seen super rare coins get graded that look butt ugly and problem coins, but they get straight graded at the major services. Certainly those who buy them based on what the coins are know what they are doing and they take the numerical grade into account or with a few grains of salt.

 

We can only hope. I'm sure there are "investors" out there that will blindly buy based on the holder, but I would hope that someone with that much money to invest in luxury items would at least hire a consultant/numismatist.

 

In any event, if the services are going to become so loose and out of touch with the market, then why have them bother grading at all? Why not just allow them to authenticate the coin? It makes no sense that other gold from that era would be held to a higher standard, but a rarer piece would not. There is no principled basis to treat them differently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

with a liner rare coin it was given the benefit of the doubt......................

 

market acceptable and all that.......................

 

on a different day might have had a details holder outcome

 

but it is a liner................

 

if it was a 1907 liberty it would be in a details holder

 

anyways

 

not a coin that I find market acceptable

 

but...........................

 

market acceptable right on the line; a liner near miss details holder

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't care to offer an opinion until I could see the coin in person.

 

The "scratch" on the obverse could be a bag mark and it doesn't look recent - it might be a mark from circulation.

 

Also, I think the scratch on the reverse is being exaggerated by the lighting technique for the image.

 

For that matter, the "scratch" on the obverse could be a whole lot less apparent in person, too.

 

None of the above is to suggest that I'd find the coin attractive enough to buy, however.

 

I've seen a highly successful coin dealer (who is a highly experienced former TPG grader) buy a gold coin with a scratch (or hit, I forget which) on the reverse that was sufficiently distracting that I wouldn't buy the coin - and it was in a "no problem" holder, too!

 

When he bought it, he said "I'm not bothered by the scratch (or hit)." Now, he may have liked the coin, or it's also possible that the price was right and he was confident he'd be able to sell it for a profit. I recognize the fact that a Pro dealer plays a different game than I do and, perhaps, a different game from many collectors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a bit confused, but then again I realize I don't have the experience that some of you do. I see the 2 big 'scratch' marks, but I wonder why it matters where they came from. If they are bag marks, some of you are saying it's not as big a deal.

(1) Isn't a scratch a scratch -- why does it matter if it comes from banging against other coins (and how can you really be sure anyway) ?

 

(2) Tell me why this coin immediately drops below MS-60; what does it ? I see the 2 big scratches on the reverse/obverse...I also see lots of fainter/finer scratches on the obverse and reverse...also lots of fine scratches on Liberty's face.......plus some blackish marks on the obverse. Is that what you guys are focusing on ?

 

(3) Are the black denticles on the reverse a problem ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a bit confused, but then again I realize I don't have the experience that some of you do. I see the 2 big 'scratch' marks, but I wonder why it matters where they came from. If they are bag marks, some of you are saying it's not as big a deal.

(1) Isn't a scratch a scratch -- why does it matter if it comes from banging against other coins (and how can you really be sure anyway) ?

 

Bag marks result from normal storage processes, whereas deep scratches are usually viewed as post mint damage such as from a staple. With that said, it all comes down to severity and market acceptability. A coin with a very severe bag mark (i.e. contact mark) could also be details graded in appropriate cases. The scratch and the huge gouge are extremely distracting and take away from the eye appeal of the piece. I don't find the coin market acceptable, and I think the larger market will agree.

 

(2) Tell me why this coin immediately drops below MS-60; what does it ? I see the 2 big scratches on the reverse/obverse...I also see lots of fainter/finer scratches on the obverse and reverse...also lots of fine scratches on Liberty's face.......plus some blackish marks on the obverse. Is that what you guys are focusing on ?

 

The wear. If the coin otherwise just had the scratches and gouge but all of the luster and no wear, it would properly be described as "UNC Details."

 

(3) Are the black denticles on the reverse a problem ?

 

No.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A scratch is a scratch, but if it has aged along with the balance of the coin it will often have less of a negative impact than a "new" scratch.

 

The photos suggest a nice EF coin for which buyer and seller will negotiate the "value" of the two large scratches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A scratch is a scratch, but if it has aged along with the balance of the coin it will often have less of a negative impact than a "new" scratch.

 

The photos suggest a nice EF coin for which buyer and seller will negotiate the "value" of the two large scratches.

 

I am curious what you think given that you used the adjective "nice." Do you think the coin should be graded in a straight graded XF45 slab or a XF details slab?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regardless of the source of the obverse cuts/gouges and reverse scratch, based on the images provided, I would expect a details grade for the coin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I am curious what you think given that you used the adjective 'nice.' "

 

Ignoring the large scratches, overall the coin is a pleasant EF - not a high-end piece but certainly not a "pumped-up VF."

 

Probably a "details" grade of EF with a note about the scratch. If the scratch were recent, then it would not grade at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It graded straight XF45.

 

If that was for my benefit, I knew at the time of my post that it had straight graded and was giving my differing opinion ;) .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry Mark. I didn't know you knew what it had graded.

 

Please don't apologize. I appreciated your post and my assessment of the coin did not give any indication that I was aware of the grading result.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bag marks result from normal storage processes, whereas deep scratches are usually viewed as post mint damage such as from a staple. With that said, it all comes down to severity and market acceptability. A coin with a very severe bag mark (i.e. contact mark) could also be details graded in appropriate cases. The scratch and the huge gouge are extremely distracting and take away from the eye appeal of the piece. I don't find the coin market acceptable, and I think the larger market will agree.

So if something GOUGES the coin -- deep -- that's different than just light bag scratches, right ?

 

The wear. If the coin otherwise just had the scratches and gouge but all of the luster and no wear, it would properly be described as "UNC Details."

How do you know the coin once had luster ? Suppose it had the same lack of luster...but not a mark on it....how would you then grade it ?

 

Also, what is this "Details" grading you guys are talking about ? Are these the ratings below MS-60 (AU, XF, Fine, etc.) ???

 

Do you think the coin should be graded in a straight graded XF45 slab or a XF details slab?

? ? ? ? ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will say that I was in the camp that the coin should not grade. I'm happy for the owner that it graded but I personally still believe it to be a details coin. I've seen similar that were considered "graffiti" or post mint damage.

 

MQJNK7f.jpg

mLiVtqW.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bag marks result from normal storage processes, whereas deep scratches are usually viewed as post mint damage such as from a staple. With that said, it all comes down to severity and market acceptability. A coin with a very severe bag mark (i.e. contact mark) could also be details graded in appropriate cases. The scratch and the huge gouge are extremely distracting and take away from the eye appeal of the piece. I don't find the coin market acceptable, and I think the larger market will agree.

So if something GOUGES the coin -- deep -- that's different than just light bag scratches, right ?

 

There are different degrees of damage and each may affect the value differently. Some might be more detrimental to the value than others, and certainly, the severity of those marks comes into play. For purpose of this discussion - whether the coin belongs in a problem free slab or not - damage is damage. It is common to provide a technical "details" grade and a description of the problem. In my opinion, this coin should have been placed in an "EF details holder - scratched/gouged." It is inappropriate to assign a straight grade with no mention of the problem, as it implies that the coin is problem free. It most certainly is not. It should be labeled as a problem coin and the market can decide the severity and the amount of discounting value wise to be done.

 

How do you know the coin once had luster ? Suppose it had the same lack of luster...but not a mark on it....how would you then grade it ?

 

Luster is created by metal flow lines from when the coin is struck. All mint state coins (as struck) will exhibit luster. Any impairment of luster is a deviation from that and will affect the grade accordingly. Luster is absolutely a component of grading for mint state and circulated coins at the higher end of the grading range.

 

Also, what is this "Details" grading you guys are talking about ? Are these the ratings below MS-60 (AU, XF, Fine, etc.)

 

See above.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Until several years ago, only ANACS would grade and encapsulate "problem" (cleaned, scratched, etc.) coins.

 

They would give the coin a "details grade" (that is, what the coin would have graded without the problem) and a list of the problems, leaving the buyer and seller to set a price for the coin.

 

PCGS and NGC would not grade and encapsulate "problem" coins - they would return them in a "body bag" (a baggie) with a slip of paper listing the problem. (NGC had NCS for problem coins.)

 

Then, a few years ago, NGC and PCGS began encapsulating "problem" coins - listing the details grade and the problem.

 

So now, when you see a coin in a PCGS or NGC slab, you have to look at the label to see if the coin is "straight graded" (that is, no problems).

 

Some coin market participants say that the TPGs are now too quick to put a coin in a problem slab (which is what some people used to say about ANACS, too).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will say that I was in the camp that the coin should not grade. I'm happy for the owner that it graded but I personally still believe it to be a details coin. I've seen similar that were considered "graffiti" or post mint damage.

Thanks for posting the blow-up of the coin, I now see how heavily marked the entire coin appears. I didn't notice it at first.

 

Curious: we know that the higher the gold content, the SOFTER the coin and the more likely impacts are going to leave an impact, and the deeper, too. Is it possible for coins from the 1800's with less than 0.900 gold content to really resist damage, or will it still show up ? I'm excluding today's .999 gold coins, since historically most gold coins were about 0.900 or a bit less.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my opinion, this coin should have been placed in an "EF details holder - scratched/gouged." It is inappropriate to assign a straight grade with no mention of the problem, as it implies that the coin is problem free. It most certainly is not. It should be labeled as a problem coin and the market can decide the severity and the amount of discounting value wise to be done.

I think I'm still confused on this "details grade" thing but in this example....if you just gave it a straight grade like EF or VF or whatever....why do you need the descriptive to follow ? If the coin is AU or EF or VF, doesn't it imply that it WAS NOT a problem-free coin ?

 

In this case, once you look clearly, you see the 2 big gouges and hundreds of find scratches. Even I can see them now, since the blow-up. I'm sure a grader or more experienced collector would notice it immediately....so why would the detail (?) be necessary next to the grade ? Is it a courtesy ? An explanation for the grade ?

 

Luster is created by metal flow lines from when the coin is struck. All mint state coins (as struck) will exhibit luster. Any impairment of luster is a deviation from that and will affect the grade accordingly. Luster is absolutely a component of grading for mint state and circulated coins at the higher end of the grading range.

So luster is shine, right ? Reflectivity ? And these 'satin' proofs I read about did not appear as 'shiny' as traditional proofs, right ?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Until several years ago, only ANACS would grade and encapsulate "problem" (cleaned, scratched, etc.) coins. They would give the coin a "details grade" (that is, what the coin would have graded without the problem) and a list of the problems, leaving the buyer and seller to set a price for the coin.PCGS and NGC would not grade and encapsulate "problem" coins - they would return them in a "body bag" (a baggie) with a slip of paper listing the problem. (NGC had NCS for problem coins.)Then, a few years ago, NGC and PCGS began encapsulating "problem" coins - listing the details grade and the problem.So now, when you see a coin in a PCGS or NGC slab, you have to look at the label to see if the coin is "straight graded" (that is, no problems).Some coin market participants say that the TPGs are now too quick to put a coin in a problem slab (which is what some people used to say about ANACS, too).

OK, I think I understand the detail thing now -- just more information, right ?

 

But let me ask this: aside from something hidden like cleaning (which is good to know), why do you need the details on this coin ? The marks and 2 big gouges are clearly seen. Sure, with luster and without the 2 big gouges and the 100's of little scratches it probably would be MS-62 or MS-65 or maybe even MS-67 or whatever.

 

But that's the thing....it DIDN'T not have those things, hence the grade of AU or EF or VF or whatever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites