1864-S $10 Straight grades contrary to collectors' judgment

[coinman_23885]

But let me ask this: aside from something hidden like cleaning (which is good to know), why do you need the details on this coin ? The marks and 2 big gouges are clearly seen. Sure, with luster and without the 2 big gouges and the 100's of little scratches it probably would be MS-62 or MS-65 or maybe even MS-67 or whatever.

 

Not even close!

 

But that's the thing....it DIDN'T not have those things, hence the grade of AU or EF or VF or whatever.

 

No, without the dings, gouges, and scratches, it is still an EF coin. It would be a more valuable problem free EF. The EF grade is for the amount of "meat" or detail that remains after wear. If it is problem free, it straight grades (e.g. EF 40 or EF45). If it is a problem coin, then it belongs in an EF details holder.

 

Edited: Putting this coin in a problem free slab is analogous to a car dealer representing a car as in "excellent shape" and "problem free" and neglecting to note that the car had been in an accident and had some damage to the chassis (even if only cosmetic).

 

And the analogy only is meant insofar as the accuracy of the label and not the intent of the parties to be clear.

[coinman_23885]

So luster is shine, right ? Reflectivity ? And these 'satin' proofs I read about did not appear as 'shiny' as traditional proofs, right ?

 

 

Luster refers to the way that a coin reflects light, and as stated before, is a result of the flow lines from striking. Some coins have mirrored fields and are proof-like or proof caused by, among other things, extra polishing of the dies. There are others too. Regardless, these are all beyond the scope of this thread, other than to say that they all reflect light in a certain characteristic way. Mint state business strike coins like this (the 1864-S eagle) will have cartwheel luster. A deviation from this represents reduced quality from the condition as struck and is considered in grading.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Thanks Coinman, that clears it up a bit more.

 

And I meant the MS-grades only as an approximation, I guess even AU would be a stretch. My point was you take away alot of the visible problems, the rating would go up (I would think) -- just how much is up to the grader/buyer.

[Matt_dac]

G-AU coins are certainly not 'details' coins merely because of their non MS condition.

[Conder101]

Luster is created by metal flow lines from when the coin is struck. All mint state coins (as struck) will exhibit luster.

True but that luster can be quite variable depending on the condition of the dies. If can be PL with little or no cartwheel, satiny with just wide diffuse "shimmer" tight band cartwheel, wide band cartwheel, or heavily die flowed with little or no cartwheel and in effect no luster.

 

This coin probably straight graded because it is a very expensive coin and benefited from the TPG common practice of giving keys a "boost" in their grades, either by overgrading or ignoring problems and straight grading. If this had been a common date/mint eagle it probably would have detail graded.

[GoldFinger1969]

If anybody knows of a good documentary on YouTube or elsewhere that really goes in depth about coin making -- touching up on die cracks, metal flow, luster, strikes, press tonnage, proofs, etc. -- I'd love to see it. Probably isn't one, but I would love to get up to speed watching a documentary seeing as reading the books I have on them will take months at least.

[DaveG]

GoldFinger1969:

 

You might be interested in reading what NGC says about Coin Grading on their Home Page (click on the tab at the left).

[GoldFinger1969]

Thanks Dave.....always good to remember to check the original basic sources for information. (thumbs u