local coin dealer says, graded coins have no value!!!!! *DELETED*

[msmhappy]

Post deleted by msmhappy

[gmarguli]

He sounds like a dealer that doesn't like the services because he can't sell his overgraded/problem coins to the masses as easily as he used to.

[GDJMSP]

Greg I have to agree with you.

[chrisfuccione]

I thought most dealers liked graded coins because they could resell them at a higher price. CHRIS

[Android]

I've watched occasionally, with complete disdain, dealers cracking nice MS63 and MS64 coins out of holders, putting them in their own flips, and re-labeling and re-pricing the coins as MS65's. Even at major shows. Pretty sad if you ask me.

 

Andy

[Twowood]

Graded coins have no value

 

A statement like that is absurd! If he's arguing that Raw coins have more upside grading potential, he may be right, but any fool knows that a PCGS/NGC MS68 has much stronger market appeal and integrity than a similar coin graded by Aunt Mary.

Most of us have been burned too many times buying a Raw 65 only to have it returned ungraded as "Cleaned"...or worse. Twowood

[nwcs]

I think this dealer has an agenda. My local coin shop guy considers the grades on all slabs to be equal. So he prices a PCI Gold label to the same price as a NGC and PCGS. But he doesn't grade his stuff more than BU (although he'll sometimes give a higher price for fewer marks). If you're really careful, you can find deals on his raw stuff. I got a nice MS64 1925 Peace for $20. (I sent it in since I thought it might go 65)

[Dog97]

He apparently thinks:

#1 You are a newbie wasting his valuable time.

#2 He doesn't want you to know there IS A difference so he can sell you his junk knowledgable collectors avoid.

#3 You might have raw coins to sell and he can rip you on them.

#4 You are unable to find out the truth because he doesn't know you read these message boards.

[keithdagen]

Well, to take the counter opinion, your dealer is absolutely RIGHT!

 

Having a certified coin in MS-65 does not make the piece more valuable than the same coin raw in MS-65. The intrinsic value of the coin should not change with grading.

 

This is pretty much true of all pre-clad era coins. However, having a coin certified may make it more marketable to the public. And, since there are MANY dealers who overgrade, don't disclose problems, or are generally unreputable, there is no reason to not purchase a coin already certified if the coin is going anyplace beyond a circulated album, and then your key dates should start in slabs first. The authentication services that are provided are valuable.

[Hoot]

since there are MANY dealers who overgrade, don't disclose problems, or are generally unreputable

 

Exactly why uncertified coins are worth less than reputably certified coins. There is a margin of loss associated with a raw coin because of the uncertainty of its history and treatment.

 

I find that most dealers that have contempt for the major grading services are simply pissed off because they can be held to stricter and more accountable standards than their own. Dealers that don't mind the major grading services generally have nothing to hide and are willing to serve.

 

Hoot

[jtryka]

Exactly why uncertified coins are worth less than reputably certified coins. There is a margin of loss associated with a raw coin because of the uncertainty of its history and treatment.

 

 

I do not wholly agree with this statement. Sure the lower tier grading services are the exception, but even with the top guys, there is significant uncertainty still. How many dipped, AT and otherwise doctored coins currently reside in such holders? No one really knows, but it's clearly an important issue considering the thread by Mark Feld a few days ago about the experts coming together to battle the coin doctors.

 

On a purely technical basis, I agree with Keith. The coin in the holder is worth exactly the same as if it was not in the holder. The holder is really an item that can be valued separately as a hybrid insurance policy against fake/altered coins, an independent grade assessment and a transferrable warranty for the exact grade. I would argue that the approximate value of that insurance/assessment/warranty is equal to the differential between the price of the coin raw vs. slabbed. I guess this view comes from looking at so many complex option and derivative transactions in my career, but it seems to be a reasonable framework for looking at the value of certification services.

[GDJMSP]

There is one other idea that should be considered. There still is the occasional collector and/or dealer that just hates slabbed coins. They just can't stand the idea of a coin in a slab.

 

To many of them - the grading companies are just out to make a buck and they want no part of it. They often think that all slabbed coins are incorrectly graded because of the terrible - though deserved - reputation that some grading companies have. Even if they agree to buy a slabbed coin - the first thing they do is crack it out and throw the plastic away. Some of them won't even go that far - they won't buy a slabbed coin at all. Just because it's in a slab.

 

May sound crazy to us - but it's true.

[Hoot]

Jeff, Keith, GDJMS - everything said, IMO, is right, just depending on the angle taken on the subject. It's true that a correctly graded coin is simply worth what it's worth, the slabs are somewhat of an insurance policy, and some dealers simply have amazing contempt for the grading services simply because they hate the idea of an entoumbed coin. (I crack some coins for the purpose of placing them in albums !) And who the heck knows how many doctored coins are slabbed, but I'd bet that it's a strict minority in PCGS and NGC slabs. Just my belief.

 

What the grading services have done for the hobby, however, is that they have lent some stability to the grading arena, even though the grading is "market grading." (Fact of the matter is that market grading has always been predominant. When the ANA standards were published, the notion of technical grading had been proposed for similar purposes to having grading services - to take some of the variability out of the hobby. However, it does not work well, especially when considering series that have vastly differing production characteristics, e.g. Morgans or buffalo nickels.) Anyway, I think that many dealers responded with disgruntlement since they were used to calling so many of their own shots. Other dealers did not care, as the grading services graded similarly to their own style. I'm not saying that all dealers responded these ways, but I have met plenty in these camps. Those that responded with contempt were almost always selling crappy coins as "problem free" to naive collectors and wannabe investors. I still run into those guys. And many of them are "ANA, NGC, PCGS certified" (whatever the hell that means). Sleazy. I ran into one last year that I should have reported to the ANA, as he was claiming the affiliation and was in flagrant violation of their bylaws. So, I guess I carry around a bit of an ax for such people. Sorry to vent.

 

Hoot