How does lamination effect grading

[dimefreak]

What do the masses here believe should be the max grade for a buffalo nickel with some lamination in the hair and feathers. I don't believe an example should be needed here. Just a straight forward question . I think Gem should be the max grade! You think?

[e1cnr]

I wish the TPGs agreed and gave them a grade

[bsshog40]

With lamination being a kind of mint error, I don't see why it should affect the grade any.

[newprepper]

I would think it might affect it the same way as a less than full strike

[WoodenJefferson]

No...simply because all laminations are different in size, shape and severity. There would be no way to differentiate degree between one graded on Monday and another one graded on Friday.

[Conder101]

It really depends on the lamination. Very small ones often do not affect the grade at all. Larger ones can cause it to be down graded, and really large ones used to be grounds for body bagging the coinfor a defective planchet. Today it would probably receive a details grade. (Unless possibly submitted as a mint error.)

[coinman_23885]

Small laminations that don't detract from eye appeal will result in a silent net grade. Very small laminations might not be affected at all.

 

Moderate laminations have a larger effect. If it is the first thing that jumps out on quick inspection, I have never seen one grade higher than MS64.

 

Severe laminations will not receive a straight, problem free grade.

[ldhair]

Severe laminations will not receive a straight, problem free grade.

I have always wondered why they don't get a straight grade. Not a gripe but it seems like these get a different treatment from TPGs. I'm sure there is something I don't understand but clips, plating issues and other stuff will get straight graded.

[BillJones]

Severe laminations will not receive a straight, problem free grade.

I have always wondered why they don't get a straight grade. Not a gripe but it seems like these get a different treatment from TPGs. I'm sure there is something I don't understand but clips, plating issues and other stuff will get straight graded.

 

The answer to your "gripe" is quite simple. A large lamination can have a big effect upon the eye appeal of a piece for most collectors. The grade goes a long way toward determining the value of a coin. With all other things being equal, a piece that grades MS-65 with no laminations is more desirable than a piece that would grade MS-65 with a big lamination. Therefore the coin is disqualified from getting the MS-65 grade because of a lamination.

 

Let's put this way. If you are a collector who orders an MS-65 graded coins, for most of us it would be an unpleasant surprise if the coin you get has a lamination on it. That might not seem fair, but it is a fact of the coin market.

 

I know for a fact that pieces with clips don't get "straight graded." They might get the grade, but if the clip is large enough, it gets noted on the holder, and that lowers the price for an expensive classic coin.

 

Years ago I bought a 1795 half cent in AU-58 from a major copper dealer. The coin was raw, but both of us knew that it was a going to get an AU-58 without question. The problem was the coin a very tiny planchet clip. If the clip was noted on the PCGS holder, that would knock down the value of the piece by several thousand dollars. The agreement was we had a deal if the coin came back with no mention of the clip on the PCGS holder. It came back "clean" without a notation for the clip, and the coin is now in my collection.

[joeyuk]

Why not straight grade it and attribute the lamination. I have seen this on clips.

[WoodenJefferson]

Top tier graded coins are supposed to be able to bought 'sight unseen' because for the most part, you trust their judgement. But...and there always seems to be a but, there are unscrupulous sellers out there that would fail to mention a notation on the label that the coin there-in contained has a slight lamination flaw...believe it or not.

[coinman_23885]

Severe laminations will not receive a straight, problem free grade.

I have always wondered why they don't get a straight grade. Not a gripe but it seems like these get a different treatment from TPGs. I'm sure there is something I don't understand but clips, plating issues and other stuff will get straight graded.

 

The answer to your "gripe" is quite simple. A large lamination can have a big effect upon the eye appeal of a piece for most collectors. The grade goes a long way toward determining the value of a coin. With all other things being equal, a piece that grades MS-65 with no laminations is more desirable than a piece that would grade MS-65 with a big lamination. Therefore the coin is disqualified from getting the MS-65 grade because of a lamination.

 

Let's put this way. If you are a collector who orders an MS-65 graded coins, for most of us it would be an unpleasant surprise if the coin you get has a lamination on it. That might not seem fair, but it is a fact of the coin market.

 

I know for a fact that pieces with clips don't get "straight graded." They might get the grade, but if the clip is large enough, it gets noted on the holder, and that lowers the price for an expensive classic coin.

 

Years ago I bought a 1795 half cent in AU-58 from a major copper dealer. The coin was raw, but both of us knew that it was a going to get an AU-58 without question. The problem was the coin a very tiny planchet clip. If the clip was noted on the PCGS holder, that would knock down the value of the piece by several thousand dollars. The agreement was we had a deal if the coin came back with no mention of the clip on the PCGS holder. It came back "clean" without a notation for the clip, and the coin is now in my collection.

 

With laminations, I can understand a net grade or reduced value because of the negative effect in eye appeal, and I have seen coins with laminations so severe that it envelopes half of the coin including the obverse devices. I don't understand why some other error coins such as minor clips or (going back to the 1856 flying eagle cent from the thread a few months ago) centered broad struck pieces should command lower prices, however, as I don't see any negative effects in eye appeal. Why would a centered broad struck 1856 FE command less than a normal strike? Why should your EAC command a lower premium? If anything, it would seemingly make the pieces rarer and more desirable.

[BillJones]

The 1795 half cent would worth less money because "perfect" early coins are rarer and harder to find than pieces with most any defect you can name. The rule of thumb is that early coins with mint errors like planchet clips are worth less than pieces that perfectly made. The opposite is true for modern coins. Many early coins will have one or more mint caused or non mint caused issues. Those that do not such problems are worth a premium.

[coinman_23885]

The 1795 half cent would worth less money because "perfect" early coins are rarer and harder to find than pieces with most any defect you can name. The rule of thumb is that early coins with mint errors like planchet clips are worth less than pieces that perfectly made. The opposite is true for modern coins. Many early coins will have one or more mint caused or non mint caused issues. Those that do not such problems are worth a premium.

 

Thanks for the clarification/explanation.

[dadams]

Rather than start a new thread, I figured I'd just bump this one, even though the OP asked about a Buff . . .

 

I bought this coin a year or so ago and with the Houston Money Show coming up thought I'd dig through the 7070 for a piece or two to submit for grading. Arrrgggghhh!!!! Look what I found -- I don't recall having seen this when I bought it, but I couldn't find the little piece in the Dansco either. So having read through the responses to the OP's question can you possibly tell me how this might affect grade/value? I'm supposing a TPG would body bag or details grade this? To me she's still a good looking coin and will keep filling that Dansco hole for the time being.

 

[RWB]

As much as one wails and laments, the coin is the grade.

 

 

Ohhh...sorry....got my words mixed up.

[Conder101]

So what's the problem? i see a little flake of some foreign matter on the coin and two small black spots which I doubt will get any worse. I would give it a straight grade not details, And if you don't like it send it to me I think it's nice.

[RWB]

Nothing there to prevent grading and putting in a slab forever and ever.

[Kurtdog]

How does lamination effect grading

I don't think it should affect the technical grade but I think it should have an effect on the market grade.

[dadams]

So what's the problem? i see a little flake of some foreign matter on the coin and two small black spots which I doubt will get any worse. I would give it a straight grade not details, And if you don't like it send it to me I think it's nice.

 

Ok, I've looked at this again and there is definitely something going on. In the area indicated below. I see (what appears to be) a small flake of copper loss, it is rectangular in shape and there is obvious color difference at the site. At the righthand side of the defect there is a black spot - at this juncture the black portion is very slightly raised (curled). At the bottom of the defect I observe a slight bit of jaggedness, the left side and along the top are pretty smooth. To my eye this is not a flake of debris as it does appear to be below the surface. I'm leery of picking at it as I don't want to make it worse of damage the coin. I suppose it's not a great big deal, but it is very slightly noticeable and it is bothering me. So is a lamination possible on a 100% copper planchet? and is what I display here a lamination or are my eyes not really seeing what I think I see?

 

@RWB -- I lament the fact that I contributed to this thread in an effort to learn something and have an extremely knowledgeable numismatist replying, but from who I learned nothing

 

[e1cnr]

looks to me like a chunk of plastic from being liberated from a slab

 

 

I have had a few awesome toned war nickels that came back NG due to laminations

[AcesKings]

If you go to Heritage and search "lamination", it gives several pages of straight graded lamination errors. Some very severe. So, how do these get through without the details grades, and others don't? Do you HAVE to pay the mint error charge to ensure it straight grades?(assuming nothing else is wrong with the coin)

 

I'd be interested since I'd like to get this one certified some time......