Saturdays at Coin Shows...

[TonerGuy]

I really wish that PCGS / Collectors Universe - the owners of the Long Beach Show - would do something about the mass exodus of dealers on Saturday.

 

I know that they tried to address this issue by cancelling Sundays and stopping the Show on Saturday but all that did was to give the out of state dealers an excuse to leave on Saturday.

 

By noon on Saturday I would say 25-50% of the dealer tables are empty. I have rarely attended other shows but does this happen everywhere else as well ?

 

Do dealers close up early at the ANA shows or Whitman or even FUN ?

 

I understand that most of a dealer's business is B2B with other dealers but it really looks bad for the hobby when the general public spends $8 to get in and many of the dealers and coins are gone.

 

Not every one can take off work and go on a Thursday or Friday.

 

Sorry... end of rant.

[RWB]

Coin shows are only for the dealers -- heck with the public. The pubic doesn't spend real money at shows. All the public does is finger the merchandise, gasp at the asking price, and drool on coin cases. Dealers trade the same coins back and forth, from show to show, until they fall asleep and consign the coins to an auction where other dealers buy the coins and the whole process starts over.

 

 

PS: "By noon on Saturday I would say 25-50% of the dealer tables are empty."

 

This is sometimes the case even when there's a person at the table....

[DaveG]

Collectors have been complaining about dealers leaving early at least as long as I've been on the boards (here and ATS).

 

Dealers have been complaining about the lack of collectors on the last day of multi-day coin shows for at least as long.

 

Generally speaking, "wholesale" dealers (who don't do much or any business with the public) tend to leave multi-day shows early, but collectors aren't missing much if they're not there.

 

As for dealers who want to do business with the public, they'll generally stay at a show as long as it's worth their while - if there's lots of business to be done, they'll be there; if collectors are thin on the ground, they'll leave. It's usually that simple.

 

As for taking time off work to attend a coin show: it's like everything else in life - it it's important to you, you'll make a special effort to get there.

 

In the meantime, "half of Long Beach is better than none."

[Walkerfan]

I notice this at ALL the shows that I go to big AND small and also with short AND long show dates. Dealers always seem to leave EARLY, as they want to hit the restaurant and then hit the road.

[Raisethis2]

It's why I find little to ever get excited about. The first 2 days Dealer to Dealer activity DOMINATES every show to the point where asking to see a coin (if you can see through all the clutter on top of the cases) feels like an imposition and the third day Dealers are on the road by noon.

 

RWB is exactly right in his analysis.

 

The show organizers need to crack down on Dealer to Dealer sales and enforce the early bird trading hours and be clear that they do expire.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I really wish that PCGS / Collectors Universe - the owners of the Long Beach Show - would do something about the mass exodus of dealers on Saturday.

 

I know that they tried to address this issue by cancelling Sundays and stopping the Show on Saturday but all that did was to give the out of state dealers an excuse to leave on Saturday.

 

By noon on Saturday I would say 25-50% of the dealer tables are empty. I have rarely attended other shows but does this happen everywhere else as well ?

 

Do dealers close up early at the ANA shows or Whitman or even FUN ?

 

I understand that most of a dealer's business is B2B with other dealers but it really looks bad for the hobby when the general public spends $8 to get in and many of the dealers and coins are gone.

 

Not every one can take off work and go on a Thursday or Friday.

 

Sorry... end of rant.

Would this problem be resolved if collectors would take most of the money they spend on-line and spend it at live shows instead??

[DaveG]

It might help, but it's also likely that many of the coins that are sold on the Internet were purchased at a coin show.

 

(One of the dealers at the Parsippany show that I'm friendly with has or had a very good customer who re-sold what he bought on the Internet.)

 

The other thing to keep in mind in these days of heightened security concerns is that "there's no benefit to being the last coin dealer to leave the show" as a dealer at a show recently commented to me.

[bstrauss3]

Yup, pretty bleak. In fact, the smaller shows in the PNW are going to just 1 day.

 

I'm also not shy about moving people's notebooks and asking to see something I want to see. My money is just as green.

[illini420]

I don't think the exodus on Saturday is as bad as it was a few years ago. It used to be the case that many dealers would leave Saturday starting at around noon and by 3pm the show would be just about dead.

 

This show (and for the past couple of shows) you still have some east coast dealers not even bother to show up on Saturday and leave Friday night. Others will leave one employee behind and a small portion of their inventory. But for the most part, I think 80% or more of the dealers are still there Saturday morning. It is true that some start to pack up and leave around noon-1pm, but I think most hold off until around 2-3pm to start packing up. I do know that we are in the minority as we do not start packing up our table until around 4pm, meaning we are still at the show until at least 5pm on Saturday.

 

The promoters of the show really can't do much about it, unfortunately. This isn't just an issue at Long Beach, it happens at all shows... ever go to an ANA convention on the last day??? Almost a complete waste of time.

 

What should happen at the Long Beach show in particular, is that PCGS, NGC & ANACS should certainly stay until the end and take submissions from the public until the end. PCGS in particular since they are in SoCal and their parent company owns the show. I know the US Mint was there and open until at least 3pm or so which was nice. But Heritage and Stacks who often bring nice displays of coins usually take them down pretty early on Saturday (and some displays aren't up at all on Saturday). These big guys should set the example and stay until the end (at least 3pm) to give those who can only come on Saturday their money's worth. It would also make the show appear to be more occupied as those big guys are the ones with the huge tables right up front.

 

The other thing that should happen is a reduced admission charge for Saturday. I hate seeing folks showing up around noon or 1pm on Saturday having to pay the same price for only a couple of hours of maybe 75% of the experience.

[BillJones]

Selling to successful dealers is easier than selling to collectors. Successful dealers need coins all the time. Their demands are never ending. Collectors have much more limited buying goals (usually) and are often more picky. Once a collector gets the right coin to fill a hole, they don't want another example of the same piece. Dealers buy more pieces to fit their needs.

 

When you add to that the idea that some collectors get the idea. that they are entitled to buy coins at Gray Sheet wholesale levels or less, one can see why some dealers get exasperated with collectors who come to shows. For many dealers the amount of business they might get on Saturday, and especially Sunday, you can see why they don't stay.

[TonerGuy]

I understand why dealers do it... the rant was more about what could be done about it.

 

I suggest a B2B section and a consumer section. I respect a dealers desire not to sell to the public. And those dealers not wanting to set up a table should have that option.

 

Perhaps an area of the show that is only accessible to dealers with no access to the public.

 

Maybe a simple rule that you have to stay all day and if you dont want to - then the dealer has to pack up and leave the night before so CU can resell the table to smaller dealers in their place at a much reduced price. How many smaller dealers would expand their tables on Saturday or how many vest pocket dealers would grab the opportunity for the space.

 

Illini is right has well - NGC, PCGS and ANACs should be there all day all 3 days. And if the big guys like Stacks & Heritage cant/wont stay - put their table in the back so it doesnt look empty come 2pm on Saturday.

 

I give CU credit for trying to add other areas to the show such as sports memorabilia & the PawnStars casting to keep it growing. But if the first thing you see are rows of empty coin tables as soon as you paid your $8 to get in - you're not coming back.

 

That hurts everyone in the long term...

[Conder101]

Years ago the ANA tried to force the dealers to stay. They tried imposing fines, they tried punishing the dealers that left early by moving them to the back of the bourse floor the next year. What happened was the smaller and medium sized dealers got fined or moved, but the BIG dealers wouldn't pay the fine and said if they didn't get their up front tables they just wouldn't take ANY tables and would just work the floor. And since they were a major draw for the show the ANA backed down and didn't impose the penalties on the big dealers, just the smaller ones. It only lasted one or two years before they dropped the penalties. The big dealers still left leaving a big empty area by the front door, and it wasn't fair to the smaller ones.

[James_OldeTowne]

For smaller shows, I think there's actually an obvious solution that almost nobody considers - make shows dealer-setup Friday at 1:00, and public-entry Saturday (and/or Sunday). That makes for a short, tidy, active show by having it all condensed into a day and a half.

[TonerGuy]

Years ago the ANA tried to force the dealers to stay. They tried imposing fines, they tried punishing the dealers that left early by moving them to the back of the bourse floor the next year. What happened was the smaller and medium sized dealers got fined or moved, but the BIG dealers wouldn't pay the fine and said if they didn't get their up front tables they just wouldn't take ANY tables and would just work the floor. And since they were a major draw for the show the ANA backed down and didn't impose the penalties on the big dealers, just the smaller ones. It only lasted one or two years before they dropped the penalties. The big dealers still left leaving a big empty area by the front door, and it wasn't fair to the smaller ones.

 

Fines never work. Its a sad state of affairs when big dealers control an industry. I would have let them walk the floor even if it meant moving the smaller dealers up front or losing some of them. With an ANA show its much harder though.

 

With the CU Long Beach Show it would be much easier to replace large or small coin dealers with other types of dealers and make the show more of a collectibles show.

[RWB]

Absent my sarcastic remarks earlier, one option is to accept that some dealers will vacate before the show ends.

 

The solution is not to punish them, but reward those who remain. A useful way to do this, and create a better appearance, is to move dealers forward (if they wish) into unoccupied spaces toward the front of the room. Technology allows the new location to be easily identified for the public, and the remaining coin dealers get better access to collectors entering the hall. (Club and informational tables could also be interspersed with dealers.)

 

The sponsor already has everyone's money for the full show duration, so those who leave early are forfeiting their spaces and cash.

[19Lyds]

Coin shows are only for the dealers -- heck with the public. The pubic doesn't spend real money at shows. All the public does is finger the merchandise, gasp at the asking price, and drool on coin cases. Dealers trade the same coins back and forth, from show to show, until they fall asleep and consign the coins to an auction where other dealers buy the coins and the whole process starts over.

 

 

PS: "By noon on Saturday I would say 25-50% of the dealer tables are empty."

 

This is sometimes the case even when there's a person at the table....

Totally agree Roger.

 

Dealers show their true colors by leaving early. Yes I've heard the whining about wanting to be with their families but nobody forced them into this profession!

 

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why some dealers even bother showing up other than the sniff the butts of other dealers! What sense does it make since the buying (or selling) public can only come on Saturday since they have regular jobs!

 

Penalize them for leaving early on Sunday? Fine, we'll cancel the Sunday portion of the show. Well FINE, then we'll leave early on Saturday and we won't pay a penalty because if we have to, then we won't show up at all! (Huh?)

 

The other thing I don't understand is why they are even called Coin "Shows" since there are not nearly as many coin displays as there are Coin Dealers (Who don't "show" up on Saturdays because their noses are sore)!

 

Why are they called Coin Flea Markets? Or Coin Sales?

 

As an attendee of a Coin Show, I really hate seeing all those empty tables. Maybe if promoters would stop trying to make a living off of Coin "shows" and start setting cheaper table "prices" it would attract coin "dealers" that actually want to "sell" coins to the P-U-B-L-I-C and would stay until Sunday?

 

 

[RWB]

The things coin collectors enjoy have only a tenuous connection to most of the public. They are obsolete – relics of a past few know anything about and almost none relate to.

 

If one examines the popular hobby/commercial themes, all of them have social and contemporary connections to current cultures. Everything from toys to cars to irradiated “gems,” connect to individuals well before they establish any historical awareness. As time passes, the shift of awareness moves to more modern items. A 1955 Chevrolet meant nothing in 1956, but a 1932 Bugatti was a much desired collectible. Today the Chevy is a much desired collectable and the Bugatti is only a dream.

 

Our gold, silver and copper coins and medals are public curiosities – nothing more.

 

The driving question is: How can that be changed, or will coin collecting benefit from remaining a small-base hobby?

 

[TonerGuy]

Absent my sarcastic remarks earlier, one option is to accept that some dealers will vacate before the show ends.

 

The solution is not to punish them, but reward those who remain. A useful way to do this, and create a better appearance, is to move dealers forward (if they wish) into unoccupied spaces toward the front of the room. Technology allows the new location to be easily identified for the public, and the remaining coin dealers get better access to collectors entering the hall. (Club and informational tables could also be interspersed with dealers.)

 

The sponsor already has everyone's money for the full show duration, so those who leave early are forfeiting their spaces and cash.

 

100% agree.

[Raisethis2]

The obvious remedy is for the general public to wait til the last 4 hours to sell some coins. The Dealers will wait it out to buy at 20% back of bid. I guarantee it!!

[Conder101]

The solution is not to punish them, but reward those who remain.

I know Central States uses that technique, but I can't remember the details of what they offer them.

[illini420]

Well the big shows could double the table fees, then refund half of that fee to the dealers who are still set up around 3pm on the last day

 

That would keep many set up I would guess... but the big outfits would probably still leave early!

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Coin shows are only for the dealers -- heck with the public. The pubic doesn't spend real money at shows. All the public does is finger the merchandise, gasp at the asking price, and drool on coin cases. Dealers trade the same coins back and forth, from show to show, until they fall asleep and consign the coins to an auction where other dealers buy the coins and the whole process starts over.

 

 

PS: "By noon on Saturday I would say 25-50% of the dealer tables are empty."

 

This is sometimes the case even when there's a person at the table....

Totally agree Roger.

 

Dealers show their true colors by leaving early. Yes I've heard the whining about wanting to be with their families but nobody forced them into this profession!

 

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why some dealers even bother showing up other than the sniff the butts of other dealers! What sense does it make since the buying (or selling) public can only come on Saturday since they have regular jobs!

 

Penalize them for leaving early on Sunday? Fine, we'll cancel the Sunday portion of the show. Well FINE, then we'll leave early on Saturday and we won't pay a penalty because if we have to, then we won't show up at all! (Huh?)

 

The other thing I don't understand is why they are even called Coin "Shows" since there are not nearly as many coin displays as there are Coin Dealers (Who don't "show" up on Saturdays because their noses are sore)!

 

Why are they called Coin Flea Markets? Or Coin Sales?

 

As an attendee of a Coin Show, I really hate seeing all those empty tables. Maybe if promoters would stop trying to make a living off of Coin "shows" and start setting cheaper table "prices" it would attract coin "dealers" that actually want to "sell" coins to the P-U-B-L-I-C and would stay until Sunday?

 

 

Yes, dealers show their "true colors" by leaving early - they either don't think the amount of potential business justifies their staying longer and/or they prefer to be home doing other things.

 

The fact that no one forced them into this profession doesn't mean they should be forced to stay at shows longer than they care to. They pay a fee to set up and they don't get partial reimbursement for leaving early.

 

They show up to do business, whether it is wholesale, retail or both. And some of the public does show up before Saturday.

 

Many dealers would love to sell to the public. It says a great deal that so many of them leave shows early.

 

It's a classic "chicken and the egg" situation - if there were more collectors and/or they bought more coins, there would probably be more dealers who stayed later. And if there were more dealers who stayed later, there would probably be more collectors who bought more coins.

[gmarguli]

Yes, dealers show their "true colors" by leaving early - they either don't think the amount of potential business justifies their staying longer and/or they prefer to be home doing other things.

 

The fact that no one forced them into this profession doesn't mean they should be forced to stay at shows longer than they care to. They pay a fee to set up and they don't get partial reimbursement for leaving early.

 

They show up to do business, whether it is wholesale, retail or both. And some of the public does show up before Saturday.

 

However, no one forced them to sign a contract stating that they will stay until a certain time. If they don't wish to fulfill the contract and stay the specified amount of time, then they should have stayed home and do other things that are more important to them. Maybe part of the cost of doing business at the show on Thursday & Friday should be having to sit there Saturday and not do much business?

 

This Long Beach show was particularly noticeable with dealers leaving. Not shocking as I'm used to it, but just extremely noticeable as it is getting worse with each show. More and more dealers are leaving early or not even showing up on Saturday.

[gmarguli]

What should happen at the Long Beach show in particular, is that PCGS, NGC & ANACS should certainly stay until the end and take submissions from the public until the end. PCGS in particular since they are in SoCal and their parent company owns the show.

 

PCGS has actually been pretty good about accepting submissions fairly late at the Long Beach show. I'm not sure if it has to do with whether or not any of the staff are driving back to PCGS or if they have to ship them. They accepted a submission from me after their cutoff at a previous show.

 

ANACS has been good. They'll work with you and they'll do it if they can.

 

NGC used to be good, but has been awful recently - at least to me. Two shows in a row I was turned away with submissions. Once I missed their cutoff time by literally a couple of minutes - fair enough, but the very next show I was well before their stated cut off time and they turned me away. Those coins ended up going to PCGS ($2K in grading fees).

 

I think NGC does exceptional service with grading coins. When I call them, they are always helpful and nice. But when it comes to dropping off submissions at the LB show on Saturday, I'm not sure what happened. In the past I never had issues - always got David Lange who is super nice, but two turn-a-ways soured me on dropping off show submissions to them.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Yes, dealers show their "true colors" by leaving early - they either don't think the amount of potential business justifies their staying longer and/or they prefer to be home doing other things.

 

The fact that no one forced them into this profession doesn't mean they should be forced to stay at shows longer than they care to. They pay a fee to set up and they don't get partial reimbursement for leaving early.

 

They show up to do business, whether it is wholesale, retail or both. And some of the public does show up before Saturday.

 

However, no one forced them to sign a contract stating that they will stay until a certain time. If they don't wish to fulfill the contract and stay the specified amount of time, then they should have stayed home and do other things that are more important to them. Maybe part of the cost of doing business at the show on Thursday & Friday should be having to sit there Saturday and not do much business?

 

This Long Beach show was particularly noticeable with dealers leaving. Not shocking as I'm used to it, but just extremely noticeable as it is getting worse with each show. More and more dealers are leaving early or not even showing up on Saturday.

 

Greg, I agree in the case of a signed contract. But I don't think the post to which I responded was necessarily speaking to that issue.

[Hard Times]

 

Many dealers would love to sell to the public. It says a great deal that so many of them leave shows early.

 

It's a classic "chicken and the egg" situation - if there were more collectors and/or they bought more coins, there would probably be more dealers who stayed later. And if there were more dealers who stayed later, there would probably be more collectors who bought more coins.

 

If the dealers at shows would actually sell coins at reasonable prices, they might have collectors buying them. My experience is that a significant amount of dealers on the bourse want way over market value for their coins for examples that are not even close to the best coins for the grade and that would probably sell for wholesale at an auction, or have such common coins that no one wants them at their moon money prices. The few dealers that sell at reasonable prices are the ones collectors buy from. Also, many dealers have no interest in selling on the bourse it seems. I can't count the times I have been treated rudely by dealers or simply just ignored while standing at their tables for 5 or 10 minutes while they sat behind the table, playing with their computers not even looking up to see if I had a question about their inventory. Since most of them sell pretty dull stuff, I guess they realize there is no point in trying to be nice to the collectors at their table?

 

So the few dealers that sell for fair prices and that talk to me are the ones I have forged long term connections with. These are a minority at shows it seems, no wonder the public becomes more and more disappointed in coin shows - its the dealers like those I note above doing the damage, who then leave early as well.

 

Best, HT