Details graded GSA morgan question.(updated with pics on page 6)

[nk1nk]

So I recently sent in 30 GSA Morgans to NGC to be certified. The grades posted today and I was surprised to see one details graded "obv damage". I hadn't noticed anything prior to sending it in and don't have it in hand yet so I can't comment on what is there but this got me wondering if this is very common with GSA's. Any input or opinions would be appreciated, thanks.

 

Nick

[bsshog40]

I don't have any gsa's but I would think if it was 1 out 30 that it wouldn't be a common problem.

[nk1nk]

True Bobby, it is pretty obvious its not a common problem my original post didn't really make clear what I was looking for (to much work this week). I guess im more curious as to what other details graded GSA's others have seen. I mean I guess its post mint damage, even though they where issued directly from the mint. It would be interesting to see what damage was caused by the long storage and movement of this hoard. I will post pics when I get them back.

 

Nick

[e1cnr]

cert number?

[cpm9ball]

Without seeing photos, it would be difficult to respond to this. However, since the GSA cases are not sealed coming from the Treasury Dept., it is possible that someone switched coins. It certainly wouldn't be the first time this has happened.

 

Chris

[nk1nk]

cert number?

 

2631266-028

[nk1nk]

Without seeing photos, it would be difficult to respond to this. However, since the GSA cases are not sealed coming from the Treasury Dept., it is possible that someone switched coins. It certainly wouldn't be the first time this has happened.

 

Chris

 

I know its impossible to know for certain, but the circumstances of where I acquired these it would be very unlikely the slab was tampered with but I suppose anything is possible. I will post pics as soon as I receive the coin back, I agree that will help in the discussion.

 

Nick

[Nutmeg Coin]

It's showing image not available in the verification section. I would peel off the details graded sticker as it will do nothing for your ability to sell it. Whoever you sell it to, just provide the best pictures.

[AcesKings]

I used to have one that I don't think would've graded problem free. I don't have any pics of it anymore, as I used it to trade up to a better one. Mine was in a regular "CC Silver Dollar" GSA holder, which I believe they (GSA) used for coins they deemed problematic, rather than one of the "Uncirculated Silver Dollar" holders. Mine had a severe rim ding at around 1 o'clock on the obverse that I didn't notice when I bought it.

[cpm9ball]

It's showing image not available in the verification section. I would peel off the details graded sticker as it will do nothing for your ability to sell it. Whoever you sell it to, just provide the best pictures.

 

Don't you just love honest people?

 

Note to self: If you see nutmeg sprinkled on the custard, don't buy it.

 

Chris

[coinman_23885]

Were there marks from a counting wheel or other mechanical damage? The pieces were counted and stored in bags before being packaged by the GSA so it does seem plausible to me.

[nk1nk]

Were there marks from a counting wheel or other mechanical damage? The pieces were counted and stored in bags before being packaged by the GSA so it does seem plausible to me.

 

I didn't know the GSA's were sent thru a counting machine but if that's the case it makes sense some would receive some damage. I will know more on my particular coin once its in hand.

 

Nick

[Nutmeg Coin]

It's showing image not available in the verification section. I would peel off the details graded sticker as it will do nothing for your ability to sell it. Whoever you sell it to, just provide the best pictures.

 

Don't you just love honest people?

 

Note to self: If you see nutmeg sprinkled on the custard, don't buy it.

 

Chris

 

A seller has no responsibility to accept negative, stigmatizing verdicts by the grading service as final as some grades are inaccurate; the real business environment is not set in stone. I, and every other dealer who has been around for more than a few years has cracked out such coins and re-submitted them. The grading services make errors more frequently than people are aware and often will not grade coins with minor issues, thus immunize themselves against liability. Buyers are free to return coins if they do not like them. Personally I sell virtually nothing but certified coins but GSAs are different, they are certified as Unc. by the GSA.

[RWB]

Hmmm....once you are aware of a defect, you, as the seller, are morally obligated to inform a buyer. Of course that applies to real estate and other valuable property -- maybe coins are an exception to high ethical standards...?

 

 

[cpm9ball]

It's showing image not available in the verification section. I would peel off the details graded sticker as it will do nothing for your ability to sell it. Whoever you sell it to, just provide the best pictures.

 

Don't you just love honest people?

 

Note to self: If you see nutmeg sprinkled on the custard, don't buy it.

 

Chris

 

A seller has no responsibility to accept negative, stigmatizing verdicts by the grading service as final and those who do are just silly, pointy-headed perfectionists completely out of touch in the real business environment. I, and every other dealer who has been around for more than a few years has cracked out such coins and re-submitted them. The grading services make errors more frequently than people are aware and often will not grade coins with minor issues, thus immunize themselves against liability. Buyers are free to return coins if they do not like them. Personally I sell virtually nothing but certified coins but GSAs are different, they are certified as Unc. by the GSA.

 

Then why did you suggest that he remove the label before selling it? Sounds a bit underhanded to me.

 

I would peel off the details graded sticker as it will do nothing for your ability to sell it. Whoever you sell it to, just provide the best pictures.

 

I'll stick to my previous comment. Don't buy anything with nutmeg on it.

 

Chris

[Nutmeg Coin]

NGC's guarantee doesn't apply to the GSA dollars anyway:

 

"For GSA-holdered coins, NGC provides the same information on the certification labels that it does for its normal grading services, but this information appears on an oversized label that wraps around the rigid GSA holder. Also applied to the government holders are tamper-evident seals. Because these coins are not in NGC holders, the NGC Coin Grading Guarantee does not apply to GSA dollars."

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/holders/gsa.aspx

 

So there you have it, no guarantee = no liability. By the same token a "details" grade confers an opinion with less weight as if the stakes of a grading judgment are not backed up with a guarantee, then the net or details grade carries less weight.

[RWB]

What about your personal guarantee? Are your standards limited to "whatever" is expedient, convenient or can be "gotten away with?" Probably not, but you mgiht want to be a lot clearer.

 

"By the same token a 'details' grade confers an opinion without weight."

 

What do you mean?

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

It is impossible to make a judgment about the GSA without an image, do they image those after "grading"?

 

On grading standards I let the grading service make their determinations. I have seen enough net graded coins that later get graded and CAC stickered that I and every other show and shop dealer I know do not see all grading service grades as final.

[rrantique]

I don't have any gsa's but I would think if it was 1 out 30 that it wouldn't be a common problem.

 

I like the 78 CC Nick. (thumbs u

[cpm9ball]

NGC's guarantee doesn't apply to the GSA dollars anyway.

 

Wrong! They started guaranteeing them last year........

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=3527&NGC-Guarantee

 

Don't buy nutmeg!

 

Chris

[nk1nk]

I don't have any gsa's but I would think if it was 1 out 30 that it wouldn't be a common problem.

 

I like the 78 CC Nick. (thumbs u

 

 

Thanks Irvin!

 

I was glad one of the 2 received a 64, Im not sure if NGC is extra tough on these or what but out of the 30 I only got one 65 and I was certain at least 3 possibly 4 would 65. And on the low end I felt only 3 or 4 would 62 and I think I got 10!!!

 

Nick

[coinman_23885]

I don't have any gsa's but I would think if it was 1 out 30 that it wouldn't be a common problem.

 

I like the 78 CC Nick. (thumbs u

 

 

Thanks Irvin!

 

I was glad one of the 2 received a 64, Im not sure if NGC is extra tough on these or what but out of the 30 I only got one 65 and I was certain at least 3 possibly 4 would 65. And on the low end I felt only 3 or 4 would 62 and I think I got 10!!!

 

Nick

 

Look on the bright side; if the pieces are undergraded as you think they might be, then they may be worth more with a CAC gold sticker. It is my understanding that after stopping, CAC has reversed its policy and will now accept them now that NGC retroactively included the coins in GSA plastic under its guarantee.

[MarkFeld]

NGC's guarantee doesn't apply to the GSA dollars anyway:

 

"For GSA-holdered coins, NGC provides the same information on the certification labels that it does for its normal grading services, but this information appears on an oversized label that wraps around the rigid GSA holder. Also applied to the government holders are tamper-evident seals. Because these coins are not in NGC holders, the NGC Coin Grading Guarantee does not apply to GSA dollars."

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/holders/gsa.aspx

 

So there you have it, no guarantee = no liability. By the same token a "details" grade confers an opinion without weight.

 

I don't see what the lack of liability has to do with NGC's opinion - it certainly doesn't make it less expert or valid.

 

I believe you have complained about one or more sellers in the past, so it seems ironic and hypocritical to suggest removing evidence of a negative opinion by the grading company.

[MarkFeld]

I don't have any gsa's but I would think if it was 1 out 30 that it wouldn't be a common problem.

 

I like the 78 CC Nick. (thumbs u

 

 

Thanks Irvin!

 

I was glad one of the 2 received a 64, Im not sure if NGC is extra tough on these or what but out of the 30 I only got one 65 and I was certain at least 3 possibly 4 would 65. And on the low end I felt only 3 or 4 would 62 and I think I got 10!!!

 

Nick

 

My observations have been that neither NGC nor PCGS tends to be "extra tough" or even tough on those.

[toneddollars]

Some, a few GSA dollars have wheel marks from the counting machines that were used on them.

[toneddollars]

NGC's guarantee doesn't apply to the GSA dollars anyway:

 

"For GSA-holdered coins, NGC provides the same information on the certification labels that it does for its normal grading services, but this information appears on an oversized label that wraps around the rigid GSA holder. Also applied to the government holders are tamper-evident seals. Because these coins are not in NGC holders, the NGC Coin Grading Guarantee does not apply to GSA dollars."

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/holders/gsa.aspx

 

So there you have it, no guarantee = no liability. By the same token a "details" grade confers an opinion without weight.

 

NGC does. guarantee GSA dollars they grade. This announcement came out at the last ANA. Past and present graded coins.

[coinman_23885]

NGC's guarantee doesn't apply to the GSA dollars anyway:

 

"For GSA-holdered coins, NGC provides the same information on the certification labels that it does for its normal grading services, but this information appears on an oversized label that wraps around the rigid GSA holder. Also applied to the government holders are tamper-evident seals. Because these coins are not in NGC holders, the NGC Coin Grading Guarantee does not apply to GSA dollars."

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/holders/gsa.aspx

 

So there you have it, no guarantee = no liability. By the same token a "details" grade confers an opinion without weight.

 

NGC does. guarantee GSA dollars they grade. This announcement came out at the last ANA. Past and present graded coins.

 

Yes, and I think it is important to note that they were not always guaranteed and hence the sticker that adorns a lot them says otherwise. Nevertheless, NGC did retroactively apply the guarantee to the coins.

[Nutmeg Coin]

NGC's guarantee doesn't apply to the GSA dollars anyway:

 

"For GSA-holdered coins, NGC provides the same information on the certification labels that it does for its normal grading services, but this information appears on an oversized label that wraps around the rigid GSA holder. Also applied to the government holders are tamper-evident seals. Because these coins are not in NGC holders, the NGC Coin Grading Guarantee does not apply to GSA dollars."

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/holders/gsa.aspx

 

So there you have it, no guarantee = no liability. By the same token a "details" grade confers an opinion without weight.

 

I don't see what the lack of liability has to do with NGC's opinion - it certainly doesn't make it less expert or valid.

 

I believe you have complained about one or more sellers in the past, so it seems ironic and hypocritical to suggest removing evidence of a negative opinion by the grading company.

 

As I said before it is impossible to make an accurate judgment on the coin without images, my questions on that point were not answered. I usually image coins before they go into grading maybe the OP could post them if NGC does not image them. PCGS and ANACS certify GSAs are their standards the same?

 

Apparently NGC has revised its guarantee on GSAs. How many years was it the case that there was no guarantee?

 

On coins with details "damage" grades, where do they draw the line? I have seen plenty of coins that are on the line with being called damaged in numerical holders. "Market acceptability" is the key.

 

Have you ever taken a coin out of a holder with a details grade that you thought was unjust? Is there an obligation to tell the dealer or collector all known past history of a coin? What about those who sell mainly raw coins, do they have moral obligations beyond pictures to display and focus on all problems, spots, damage, bag marks, tics, light brushiness or cleaning, and all other issues and are they at fault if they do not describe any problem or defect including past grading history? Why don't auction companies mention all known problems in their descriptions?

Are good images sufficient?

[cpm9ball]

NGC's guarantee doesn't apply to the GSA dollars anyway:

 

"For GSA-holdered coins, NGC provides the same information on the certification labels that it does for its normal grading services, but this information appears on an oversized label that wraps around the rigid GSA holder. Also applied to the government holders are tamper-evident seals. Because these coins are not in NGC holders, the NGC Coin Grading Guarantee does not apply to GSA dollars."

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/holders/gsa.aspx

 

So there you have it, no guarantee = no liability. By the same token a "details" grade confers an opinion without weight.

 

I don't see what the lack of liability has to do with NGC's opinion - it certainly doesn't make it less expert or valid.

 

I believe you have complained about one or more sellers in the past, so it seems ironic and hypocritical to suggest removing evidence of a negative opinion by the grading company.

 

As I said before it is impossible to make an accurate judgment on the coin without images, my questions on that point were not answered. I usually image coins before they go into grading maybe the OP could post them if NGC does not image them. PCGS and ANACS certify GSAs are their standards the same?

 

Apparently NGC has revised its guarantee on GSAs. How many years was it the case that there was no guarantee?

 

On coins with details "damage" grades, where do they draw the line? I have seen plenty of coins that are on the line with being called damaged in numerical holders. "Market acceptability" is the key.

 

Have you ever taken a coin out of a holder with a details grade that you thought was unjust? Is there an obligation to tell the dealer or collector all known past history of a coin? What about those who sell mainly raw coins, do they have moral obligations beyond pictures to display and focus on all problems, spots, damage, bag marks, tics, light brushiness or cleaning, and all other issues and are they at fault if they do not describe any problem or defect including past grading history? Why don't auction companies mention all known problems in their descriptions?

Are good images sufficient?

 

I believe James does a pretty darn good job for Scotsman.

 

You'd better get yourself a longer ladder. The hole is getting pretty deep.

 

Chris

[bsshog40]

As proved many times, trying to grade or fully comprehend a coins condition by pictures alone, is not completely effective. This is why honest sellers disclose ALL conditions to buyers.