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What's your take on this eBay sellers items?

Started by Coindude,

21 posts in this topic

Coindude

Coindude

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I contacted the seller about a set, I liked them, but after thinking about them I thought to myself, why encourage a doctor to continue. I confronted the seller, recommending that he state they were AT. He stated that they were not and that he stands by his products. I just wanted confirmation of what I was seeing and making sure I didn't overstep my bounds.

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AHFreak

AHFreak

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long time Ebayer here...

 

I also have a love for toned coins. I have done as much learning as I can about toning, (naturally versus artificially etc).

 

I would all but guarantee those are absolutely artificial, as everyone here has already said...

 

Nothing about them looks anything even close to what "natural progression of NATURAL toning' supposedly looks like.

 

For anyone who learns a little about artificial versus natural toning, it takes very little time to cross over into areas that are far from black and white.. You get into the whole "market acceptable" versus what is not "MA" and the whole question of, "if a coin is placed in an album, and the person who put it there never intended on it to tone, but then it does tone... is it natural? -most say yes. So what about the coin that was placed in the same album, by a person who placed it there to "intentionally" tone it??? Is it natural? Many say NO .

 

 

HERES WHAT I SAY... If you like a certain coin that has toning/color, and it is appealing to your eye and available at a price that you can justify spending.... than scoop it up! On the other hand, If you are looking for toned coins in a RAW state, just so you can have it graded and put into a legit holder, to either avoid the premium of buying said coin already slabbed, OR selling said coin for a profit once its slabbed.... THAN YOU ARE PROBABLY GOING TO HAVE A TOUGH TIME. I think this issue of "toned" coins is such a bigger deal than it needs to be just because people want to make it about the seller, and whether or not he/she is doing something "unethical" either intentionally, or even unintentionally... Many toned coin enthusiasts will tell you themselves, regardless of whether or not a toned coin is natural or artificial is besides the point... it is either appealing or not... if it truly is, and you aren't over paying for the coin... THAN WHY DOES IT MATTER SO MUCH IF ITS AT/NT???

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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Posted
long time Ebayer here...

 

I also have a love for toned coins. I have done as much learning as I can about toning, (naturally versus artificially etc).

 

I would all but guarantee those are absolutely artificial, as everyone here has already said...

 

Nothing about them looks anything even close to what "natural progression of NATURAL toning' supposedly looks like.

 

For anyone who learns a little about artificial versus natural toning, it takes very little time to cross over into areas that are far from black and white.. You get into the whole "market acceptable" versus what is not "MA" and the whole question of, "if a coin is placed in an album, and the person who put it there never intended on it to tone, but then it does tone... is it natural? -most say yes. So what about the coin that was placed in the same album, by a person who placed it there to "intentionally" tone it??? Is it natural? Many say NO .

 

 

HERES WHAT I SAY... If you like a certain coin that has toning/color, and it is appealing to your eye and available at a price that you can justify spending.... than scoop it up! On the other hand, If you are looking for toned coins in a RAW state, just so you can have it graded and put into a legit holder, to either avoid the premium of buying said coin already slabbed, OR selling said coin for a profit once its slabbed.... THAN YOU ARE PROBABLY GOING TO HAVE A TOUGH TIME. I think this issue of "toned" coins is such a bigger deal than it needs to be just because people want to make it about the seller, and whether or not he/she is doing something "unethical" either intentionally, or even unintentionally... Many toned coin enthusiasts will tell you themselves, regardless of whether or not a toned coin is natural or artificial is besides the point... it is either appealing or not... if it truly is, and you aren't over paying for the coin... THAN WHY DOES IT MATTER SO MUCH IF ITS AT/NT???

 

It matters to people for a number of reasons. The major one is probably monetary.

 

Another one is that some collectors seek coins (and other objects) that have defied the odds and/or have acquired their beauty naturally, over time - and that's even if the collector can't tell for certain, by looking.

 

For example, if I wanted a pearl, I would rather have one that I knew had been created naturally, rather than by plan, in large quantities. In essence, hand-made (by nature) rather than by man in an oyster factory.

 

Likewise, I love the thought of a coin which has acquired its patina over a long period of time, on its own, while being stored in an environment intended for coins. That thought appeals to me a lot more than a coin which has been made to order by a doctor or chemist.

 

So it's the mind and not just the eyes which play a part here.

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AHFreak

AHFreak

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I hear you, and I also AGREE with you completely, about the pearls, and the coins.... I wasn't trying to make the people in which it does matter feel like it shouldn't.. I was more trying to make the point of, the issue of toned coins is far from black and white, something that is a lot more complicated than simply AT versus NT.... and that rather than getting worked up about a seller of such coin(s) who may or may not be trying to be deceitful, that it might be more advantageous to really think about what one is looking to accomplish in regards to toned coins... Is it about the color, simply the eye appeal and nothing any deeper as you put it? Is it about "rescuing from the wild" a beautiful, naturally toned coin for your collection, one that has defied the odds, and made to here and now? Maybe its about buying raw for minimal $, to grade and sell for a profit to the collector who is bonkers over naturally toned coins...? I know for me, I love the idea of the CHALLENGE that is involved with buying raw coins that are beautifully toned based on my own ability to interpret the whole "is it AT or NT" and then send for grading the ones that I believe are naturally toned or better put, "MA", to see if I am on the right track grading wise... that's not to mention any $ made by doing it this way.. (even though we all know that it is very possible for NT to get the details, and the AT to get the stamp of approval). Im sure there are millions of reasons why anyone would want a toned coin, one that is completely natural... All Im saying is figure that out first, and then when you happen across coins/sellers such as the ones here... It wont need to be about whether the seller is a liar/cheat/con trying to "pull a fast one" or whatever...

 

It just seems like more often than not, there is a whole lot of negativity that is brought up anytime a coin has color that may or may not be totally "natural", and I feel like all the negativity that these conversations create is totally unnecessary...

 

I have a perspective that comes from a relatively new guy in the coin world... people without experience are reading these types of threads, and forming views, ideas, beliefs etc.. based on these conversations.. threads like this do not contribute anything good to the well being of this GREAT hobby.. Nothing healthy, constructive, positive or otherwise useful comes out of them.

 

 

 

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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I hear you, and I also AGREE with you completely, about the pearls, and the coins.... I wasn't trying to make the people in which it does matter feel like it shouldn't.. I was more trying to make the point of, the issue of toned coins is far from black and white, something that is a lot more complicated than simply AT versus NT.... and that rather than getting worked up about a seller of such coin(s) who may or may not be trying to be deceitful, that it might be more advantageous to really think about what one is looking to accomplish in regards to toned coins... Is it about the color, simply the eye appeal and nothing any deeper as you put it? Is it about "rescuing from the wild" a beautiful, naturally toned coin for your collection, one that has defied the odds, and made to here and now? Maybe its about buying raw for minimal $, to grade and sell for a profit to the collector who is bonkers over naturally toned coins...? I know for me, I love the idea of the CHALLENGE that is involved with buying raw coins that are beautifully toned based on my own ability to interpret the whole "is it AT or NT" and then send for grading the ones that I believe are naturally toned or better put, "MA", to see if I am on the right track grading wise... that's not to mention any $ made by doing it this way.. (even though we all know that it is very possible for NT to get the details, and the AT to get the stamp of approval). Im sure there are millions of reasons why anyone would want a toned coin, one that is completely natural... All Im saying is figure that out first, and then when you happen across coins/sellers such as the ones here... It wont need to be about whether the seller is a liar/cheat/con trying to "pull a fast one" or whatever...

 

It just seems like more often than not, there is a whole lot of negativity that is brought up anytime a coin has color that may or may not be totally "natural", and I feel like all the negativity that these conversations create is totally unnecessary...

 

I have a perspective that comes from a relatively new guy in the coin world... people without experience are reading these types of threads, and forming views, ideas, beliefs etc.. based on these conversations.. threads like this do not contribute anything good to the well being of this GREAT hobby.. Nothing healthy, constructive, positive or otherwise useful comes out of them.

 

 

 

I disagree about the "Nothing healthy, constructive, positive or otherwise useful comes out of them." part.

 

For unknowledgeable onlookers and posters here, I think it is potentially helpful to make them aware of sellers whose coins appear to be unnaturally toned. That doesn't mean they shouldn't like or buy them, but it might serve to arm them with information upon which to make their decisions.

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AHFreak

AHFreak

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If anyone really wanted to be positive and do something constructive about this (and many other subjects involving coins) They would focus on education rather than putting the focus on all the "dishonest sellers" who are like sharks just circling/waiting for some unsuspecting prey...

 

If the leaders of the industry were more "forth coming about" what coin-toning even is, and HOW/WHY IT LOOKS THE WAY IT LOOKS WHEN CREATED IN A NATURAL ENVIRONMENT OVER TIME... Then people who like toned coins could better educate themselves and be armed with the ability to simply look at a coin and make the decision to "pass" because it doesn't look right to their "newly trained eye", rather than doing what so many do now, which is to buy into the misguided belief that they were almost "victim" yet again, to another shady coin-seller con artist, rip off man... who was trying to take be deceitful...

 

Everyone wants to hide the knowledge that really matters here.. They say they are doing it to protect the hobby... well, Am I the only one who has thought that maybe its time for a different approach? Maybe, if it "coin toning" were to become common knowledge to the collector.. Sellers who were out there with the wrong intentions would weed themselves right out of the picture??? Just saying.

 

Probably not going to be the most popular opinion.. but hey.

 

 

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bsshog40

bsshog40

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long time Ebayer here...

 

I also have a love for toned coins. I have done as much learning as I can about toning, (naturally versus artificially etc).

 

I would all but guarantee those are absolutely artificial, as everyone here has already said...

 

Nothing about them looks anything even close to what "natural progression of NATURAL toning' supposedly looks like.

 

For anyone who learns a little about artificial versus natural toning, it takes very little time to cross over into areas that are far from black and white.. You get into the whole "market acceptable" versus what is not "MA" and the whole question of, "if a coin is placed in an album, and the person who put it there never intended on it to tone, but then it does tone... is it natural? -most say yes. So what about the coin that was placed in the same album, by a person who placed it there to "intentionally" tone it??? Is it natural? Many say NO .

 

 

HERES WHAT I SAY... If you like a certain coin that has toning/color, and it is appealing to your eye and available at a price that you can justify spending.... than scoop it up! On the other hand, If you are looking for toned coins in a RAW state, just so you can have it graded and put into a legit holder, to either avoid the premium of buying said coin already slabbed, OR selling said coin for a profit once its slabbed.... THAN YOU ARE PROBABLY GOING TO HAVE A TOUGH TIME. I think this issue of "toned" coins is such a bigger deal than it needs to be just because people want to make it about the seller, and whether or not he/she is doing something "unethical" either intentionally, or even unintentionally... Many toned coin enthusiasts will tell you themselves, regardless of whether or not a toned coin is natural or artificial is besides the point... it is either appealing or not... if it truly is, and you aren't over paying for the coin... THAN WHY DOES IT MATTER SO MUCH IF ITS AT/NT???

Just because an enthusiast thinks an AT coin is appealing doesn't mean it's worth purchasing as a knowledgable enthusiast knows it would never grade or be worth anything more than face/metal content value. This is a big reason why it matters! If you merely want something thats "pretty", then buy it, but it will be worth nothing more. The same coin with NT would be worth having in a collection in my opinion.

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AHFreak

AHFreak

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My honest opinion is that they are most definitely artificially toned.

 

I probably should have brought this up in a new thread, as far as my thoughts/beliefs on what I would say is the root of the problem here. I just started from the point where I was the "new coin-seller guy" on Ebay. I have direct experience with this... As a seller, I have tried diligently to do right, and be honest/upfront/ethical/etc.. in the process of selling the coins I've sold. When I was a "naïve" enthusiast, I attended a coin show, and found some amazingly beautifully toned coins... I thought, these would be great to sell on Ebay, as I know how popular some can be... I went ahead with listing them.. along with my opinion on as to whether or not each coin was AT, or NT, some I felt I knew were natural, some I felt strongly were artificial, and honestly, some I didn't really know one way or another....

 

Well, turned out that it was far from being as simple as my initial thoughts of: here are some beautifully toned coins that would probably do very well on Ebay, not to mention make a collector or two very happy to receive them....

 

there were a handful of buyers/Ebay members/etc... who at the time "called me out" about selling toned coins, and being dishonest/deceitful/whatever....

 

It just doesn't make sense to me... So now, here I am a couple years later, I havent sold a toned coin on Ebay since, and I have acquired a box full of coins w/amazing color.... I am afraid to list any of them on Ebay in fear that it will affect my reputation... Actually it is less to do with my Ebay reputation, and more to do with my reputation as being a "honest, reputable coin dealer.... who buyer's can feel is trustworthy and reliable"

 

Anyways, just figured Id share some different perspective.

 

 

 

 

 

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bsshog40

bsshog40

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My honest opinion is that they are most definitely artificially toned.

 

I probably should have brought this up in a new thread, as far as my thoughts/beliefs on what I would say is the root of the problem here. I just started from the point where I was the "new coin-seller guy" on Ebay. I have direct experience with this... As a seller, I have tried diligently to do right, and be honest/upfront/ethical/etc.. in the process of selling the coins I've sold. When I was a "naïve" enthusiast, I attended a coin show, and found some amazingly beautifully toned coins... I thought, these would be great to sell on Ebay, as I know how popular some can be... I went ahead with listing them.. along with my opinion on as to whether or not each coin was AT, or NT, some I felt I knew were natural, some I felt strongly were artificial, and honestly, some I didn't really know one way or another....

 

Well, turned out that it was far from being as simple as my initial thoughts of: here are some beautifully toned coins that would probably do very well on Ebay, not to mention make a collector or two very happy to receive them....

 

there were a handful of buyers/Ebay members/etc... who at the time "called me out" about selling toned coins, and being dishonest/deceitful/whatever....

 

It just doesn't make sense to me... So now, here I am a couple years later, I havent sold a toned coin on Ebay since, and I have acquired a box full of coins w/amazing color.... I am afraid to list any of them on Ebay in fear that it will affect my reputation... Actually it is less to do with my Ebay reputation, and more to do with my reputation as being a "honest, reputable coin dealer.... who buyer's can feel is trustworthy and reliable"

 

Anyways, just figured Id share some different perspective.

 

 

 

 

Maybe the main issue should be to acquire more knowledge about toned coins. There are amazing NT toned coins but I have to believe that a person just doesn't have boxes full of them. Why don't you post a few here that you believe are NT with amazing color. The guys here are pretty knowledgable about determining AT from NT in most cases as long as the pictures look decent. If you have fear of selling them, then it sounds to me like you need to learn more about them. There are no stupid questions here and most that are here, are here to help and learn. The sad thing about wanting to be so honest is it only goes as far as your knowledge. Most times, people get called out on their coins for two reasons,

#1 - Selling something with the intent to deceit.

#2 - Selling something they don't know much about.

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AHFreak

AHFreak

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Posted

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe the main issue should be to acquire more knowledge about toned coins. There are amazing NT toned coins but I have to believe that a person just doesn't have boxes full of them. Why don't you post a few here that you believe are NT with amazing color. The guys here are pretty knowledgable about determining AT from NT in most cases as long as the pictures look decent. If you have fear of selling them, then it sounds to me like you need to learn more about them. There are no stupid questions here and most that are here, are here to help and learn. The sad thing about wanting to be so honest is it only goes as far as your knowledge. Most times, people get called out on their coins for two reasons,

#1 - Selling something with the intent to deceit.

#2 - Selling something they don't know much about.

 

First of all, I didn't say I had "boxes" of them. I said I have "a box" of them. Its a shoebox;) Second, when I listed/sold those toned coins on Ebay, I believe I was pretty clear about the fact that I didn't know much about toned coins, other than when they are pretty, they are highly pursued.... That is why I had such an unrealistic expectation that I could just do that without asking for trouble (list/sell toned coins on Ebay, AT or NT being beside the point.)

 

That whole exp. was a couple years ago, and after it happened, I went though the frustrating process of educating myself about toned coins... I was blown away by the lack of info out there... not because someone didn't share it, but because everytime someone did, the powers that be removed it or "encouraged" very successfully usually, the "sharer" to remove it themselves... you get the point and I shouldn't have to elaborate.

 

This brings us to here an now, You misinterpreted my text, The reason I am not selling these is not because I do not know whether they are NT/AT. In fact it has nothing to do with that and everything to do with simply wanting to avoid the problems that come from selling toned coins regardless of if they are AT/NT... Most of us know that whether or not a coin is AT/NT is all based on "opinions" anyways.. I have done my due diligence and studied the necessary factors to be more than capable of determining if a coin is AT or NT... I have no problems there and that wasn't what this has been about.

 

As you can see I am relatively new in my participation here on the board... its ok if folks wanna equate that to my knowledge about coins in general, meaning assuming that because Im new here, means Im new knowledge-wise about coins as well.. it is to be expected. What I have learned is that in the coin business, especially on a public forum like this, anytime you ask for advice, thoughts, opinions, insight feedback, etc... you get exactly that. A bunch of OPINIONS from folks who may or may not have a clue in all reality. It is far more advantageous to go directly to an expert in said field (which is what I did to learn about toning in the first place, several of them in fact). I reminded myself of this just yesterday when I posted about a 1964 Kennedy that I had graded... I made the mistake of mentioning that I thought it would grade MS67... but asked why it possibly graded "details" obverse wheel mark... Well, I got what I asked for.. and that was opinions about the coin. A few were so extremely helpful and insightful... but then others were completely misguided.. A couple of you even felt the need to tell me "based on what, I do not care to figure out" that it was a MS64 AT BEST??? How many 1964 Kennedys had they graded? (none, who would, what a waste of time/money right???-unless its a 66 or better that was bought for melt or less) Regardless, it wasn't very many, otherwise they wouldn't have told me that a very light, inconspicuous friction mark makes an otherwise mark free coin a MS64. Clearly these folks hadn't much experience grading Kennedys, if I didn't know better, and took these comments as surefire truth... Id be completely and utterly hopeless in my abilities.... All Im saying, is I don't think it is not a good idea to ask such a general group of people about such a specific subject.. and then accept it as being valid... IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO GO TO SOMEONE WHO IS AN EXPERT IN SAID FIELD... Which again, a couple of those types did reply to my thread about wheel marks, and I appreciate that greatly as I learned all about wheel marks, and am greatful for it...

 

 

I don't need a bunch of opinions on toning, and I don't think anyone else who is trying to learn about it does either... not like this anyways.

 

 

 

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Afterword

Afterword

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"Maybe the main issue should be to acquire more knowledge about toned coins."

 

Right, but I would think it is the TPG's knowledge in regards to NT and AT that would do the most good. After all, they are the final determining factor.

 

How do they decide what is NT and what is AT? What methodology do they use?

 

Although, opinions from this message board would be interesting.

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bsshog40

bsshog40

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Posted

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe the main issue should be to acquire more knowledge about toned coins. There are amazing NT toned coins but I have to believe that a person just doesn't have boxes full of them. Why don't you post a few here that you believe are NT with amazing color. The guys here are pretty knowledgable about determining AT from NT in most cases as long as the pictures look decent. If you have fear of selling them, then it sounds to me like you need to learn more about them. There are no stupid questions here and most that are here, are here to help and learn. The sad thing about wanting to be so honest is it only goes as far as your knowledge. Most times, people get called out on their coins for two reasons,

#1 - Selling something with the intent to deceit.

#2 - Selling something they don't know much about.

 

First of all, I didn't say I had "boxes" of them. I said I have "a box" of them. Its a shoebox;) Second, when I listed/sold those toned coins on Ebay, I believe I was pretty clear about the fact that I didn't know much about toned coins, other than when they are pretty, they are highly pursued.... That is why I had such an unrealistic expectation that I could just do that without asking for trouble (list/sell toned coins on Ebay, AT or NT being beside the point.)

 

That whole exp. was a couple years ago, and after it happened, I went though the frustrating process of educating myself about toned coins... I was blown away by the lack of info out there... not because someone didn't share it, but because everytime someone did, the powers that be removed it or "encouraged" very successfully usually, the "sharer" to remove it themselves... you get the point and I shouldn't have to elaborate.

 

This brings us to here an now, You misinterpreted my text, The reason I am not selling these is not because I do not know whether they are NT/AT. In fact it has nothing to do with that and everything to do with simply wanting to avoid the problems that come from selling toned coins regardless of if they are AT/NT... Most of us know that whether or not a coin is AT/NT is all based on "opinions" anyways.. I have done my due diligence and studied the necessary factors to be more than capable of determining if a coin is AT or NT... I have no problems there and that wasn't what this has been about.

 

As you can see I am relatively new in my participation here on the board... its ok if folks wanna equate that to my knowledge about coins in general, meaning assuming that because Im new here, means Im new knowledge-wise about coins as well.. it is to be expected. What I have learned is that in the coin business, especially on a public forum like this, anytime you ask for advice, thoughts, opinions, insight feedback, etc... you get exactly that. A bunch of OPINIONS from folks who may or may not have a clue in all reality. It is far more advantageous to go directly to an expert in said field (which is what I did to learn about toning in the first place, several of them in fact). I reminded myself of this just yesterday when I posted about a 1964 Kennedy that I had graded... I made the mistake of mentioning that I thought it would grade MS67... but asked why it possibly graded "details" obverse wheel mark... Well, I got what I asked for.. and that was opinions about the coin. A few were so extremely helpful and insightful... but then others were completely misguided.. A couple of you even felt the need to tell me "based on what, I do not care to figure out" that it was a MS64 AT BEST??? How many 1964 Kennedys had they graded? (none, who would, what a waste of time/money right???-unless its a 66 or better that was bought for melt or less) Regardless, it wasn't very many, otherwise they wouldn't have told me that a very light, inconspicuous friction mark makes an otherwise mark free coin a MS64. Clearly these folks hadn't much experience grading Kennedys, if I didn't know better, and took these comments as surefire truth... Id be completely and utterly hopeless in my abilities.... All Im saying, is I don't think it is not a good idea to ask such a general group of people about such a specific subject.. and then accept it as being valid... IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO GO TO SOMEONE WHO IS AN EXPERT IN SAID FIELD... Which again, a couple of those types did reply to my thread about wheel marks, and I appreciate that greatly as I learned all about wheel marks, and am greatful for it...

 

 

I don't need a bunch of opinions on toning, and I don't think anyone else who is trying to learn about it does either... not like this anyways.

 

 

My comment was not really projected at you my friend but a comment in general based on your comment. It seems now that you are getting some sort of attitude. There are people here that are very knowledgable but that doesn't mean you have to listen to everyone's opinion. Everyone has different perceptions and they aren't always in the majority of others. When you ask an opinion on a public forum, you have to be ready for something that you might not agree on. If you can't handle honest criticism, a public forum is not where you belong.

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