Okay, "jump on me." Here is another coin for a grade discussion ..

[BillJones]

 

I bought this 1908 with Motto $10 gold a few years ago from Harry Laibstain. NGC graded it MS-66. At the time we discussed what it might grade if someone tried to cross it to PCGS. Such a cross would be well worth it because this coin in a PCGS holder would be worth $20 grand, maybe more with coveted CAC sticker. I bought it for quite a bit less.

 

So what do you think of it? Obviously I bought it so I liked it, at least for the price paid.

 

[MarkFeld]

65

[RWB]

MS65 regardless of grading company.

[cpm9ball]

Heck! I don't care what it would grade. I just wish I could afford something this pretty.

 

I bought this 1808 with Motto $10 gold a few years ago from Harry Laibstain.

 

However, I think you should resubmit it for the Mint Error since, obviously, it is not an 1808.

 

Chris

[BillJones]

Heck! I don't care what it would grade. I just wish I could afford something this pretty.

 

I bought this 1808 with Motto $10 gold a few years ago from Harry Laibstain.

 

However, I think you should resubmit it for the Mint Error since, obviously, it is not an 1808.

 

Chris

 

Oops! I am always getting my centuries wrong. When it comes to coins my brain is always pushed toward the 18th or 19th century.

 

Fixed ...

[physics-fan3.14]

I think it should be in a 65 holder - and it doesn't matter which brand.

[wdrob]

 

I see MS66 all day long.

 

Excellent luster, color, good strike, clean surfaces virtually free of marks with only a few miniscule and more importantly excellent eye appeal.

 

Appropriate grade, imo.

 

 

[WoodenJefferson]

Bill, I don't do gold, but I know how hard it is to come up with 100 year old specimens that are pristine in nature. As far as crossing grade wise, solid 65+ and a possible bean, but falling into a 66 is pure speculative gamble. You might get lucky though but would you press your luck to get a bean?

 

How about beaning the NGC slab first...as a test. If it comes back green you sort of win, if it comes back gold all day long!

 

Psst...I know a guy in Paramus that can laser, then burnish that tick out from the front of her nose like it was never there.

[BillJones]

I'm not worried about green beans on NGC coins because the Kool Aid drinkers only believe in green and gold beans on PCGS coins.

 

It's funny, but all of JA's grading talents seem to disappear for the Kool Aid crowd when he "beans" an NGC coin. Perhaps it's some sort of mental lapse on his part.

[GoldFinger1969]

I'm probably the last person to comment given my lack of overall coin grading skills and my limited knowledge of Indian Heads, but this does look really really nice. Comparing to other coins and grades, I could justify an MS-67 rating.

[GoldFinger1969]

65

 

Mark, what items stand out on this coin that an MS-65 rating jumps out at you ?

 

What are the (big) demerits you see ? Thanks.

[GoldFinger1969]

One of the things I get confused on is the leeway that a grader (or buyer) can give a coin.

 

(1) A big coin has more surface area so more nicks/marks are tolerated.

 

(2) A very rare coin might get the benefit of the doubt if between numerical grades, more so than a common coin.

 

(3) A really pristine coin (an MS-67 or MS-68) might go up 1 grade if the person realizes it's very valuable, very rare, and let's face it: the difference between and MS65 and MS63 are probably greater than those between an MS66 and MS68 (at least how it's done in the real world).

 

BTW, I'm basing my comments on what I have read regarding some of the grading controversies/debates/inconsistencies involving some super-rate Saint Gaudens coins, including a few 1907 EHRs.

[MarkFeld]

65

 

Mark, what items stand out on this coin that an MS-65 rating jumps out at you ?

 

What are the (big) demerits you see ? Thanks.

 

Marks on the jaw and cheek, a hit under the right base of the R in LIberty, as well as in the lower and central left obverse field areas.

[Walkerfan]

I like it at 65. The small scattered marks limit it IMHO.

[jpcienkus]

I like it at 65. The small scattered marks limit it IMHO.

 

+1

 

I would still love to own the coin though.

[MBA101]

I have found that gold really needs to be in hand to get an actual idea on grade, but that said, if the luster is booming on this then 66, otherwise 65. There are a few marks, but they can be overcome by mega luster.

 

As for PCGS/NGC/CAC, it really mainly matters who your dealer is, or if you are looking to sell yourself. My dealer would likely tell me he would give me more with the sticker, and how much. Coins like this he has told me, the holder doesn't matter, its what John Albanese would be willing to pay that supports the price. My dealer would pay the same for either holder on these.

 

Selling on your own, then you do what you need to do to get the most attention for your coin.

[Walkerfan]

I like it at 65. The small scattered marks limit it IMHO.

 

+1

 

I would still love to own the coin though.

 

I agree. I'd love to own it, too---it is a great example.

[MarkFeld]

I have found that gold really needs to be in hand to get an actual idea on grade, but that said, if the luster is booming on this then 66, otherwise 65. There are a few marks, but they can be overcome by mega luster.

 

As for PCGS/NGC/CAC, it really mainly matters who your dealer is, or if you are looking to sell yourself. My dealer would likely tell me he would give me more with the sticker, and how much. Coins like this he has told me, the holder doesn't matter, its what John Albanese would be willing to pay that supports the price. My dealer would pay the same for either holder on these.

 

Selling on your own, then you do what you need to do to get the most attention for your coin.

 

Your dealer would pay the same price for a non-CAC NGC coin like this as he would a non-CAC PCGS example? You mentioned CAC and John Albanese, but apparently, this coin is not stickered,

[coinman1794]

It is pleasant as an MS65. Too many ticks in the field for 66, and a touch of grazing over the portrait/ eagle; but I often disagree with grades assigned to gold, and one point of difference is not as bad as some I've looked at. The strike seems excellent.

[MBA101]

I have found that gold really needs to be in hand to get an actual idea on grade, but that said, if the luster is booming on this then 66, otherwise 65. There are a few marks, but they can be overcome by mega luster.

 

As for PCGS/NGC/CAC, it really mainly matters who your dealer is, or if you are looking to sell yourself. My dealer would likely tell me he would give me more with the sticker, and how much. Coins like this he has told me, the holder doesn't matter, its what John Albanese would be willing to pay that supports the price. My dealer would pay the same for either holder on these.

 

Selling on your own, then you do what you need to do to get the most attention for your coin.

 

Your dealer would pay the same price for a non-CAC NGC coin like this as he would a non-CAC PCGS example? You mentioned CAC and John Albanese, but apparently, this coin is not stickered,

 

Yes...my dealer pays the same, sight seen of course. I know the coin is not stickered, but it would be worth a shot just because there is likely a huge price difference for the sticker, and the cost is minimal.

 

These with stickers are rare, looking through Heritage's auction records. That sticker will bring a large premium.

[mumu]

Nice strike.

[BillJones]

For the record I paid MS-65 money for this coin, which is what I graded it at the time. The marks you see are emphasized by the size of the picture and the fact that my photographs almost always make every mark look bigger than it is. There is no mark on this coin that is as significant as one on Washington's brow that is on that "MS-67" quarter that has been posted elsewhere today.

 

I have compared the photos of this piece with the photos of the MS-66 graded 1908 With Motto $10 gold coins on the PCGS Coin Facts site. Two of the three coins over there appear to be better than my coin. I use the word "appear" because I own some of the coins that are shown on the Coin Facts site, and their photos to tend to miss things that you might see if you were to examine the piece in person. Their photos also come up small when you download them which says to me that they are not putting up pictures with a huge number of pixels.

 

I only posted this for discussion, and I hope some have enjoyed it.

[FishyOne]

With blazing full mint bloom I could see it as a 66. It does appear to be a 65 in the images though.

[dadams]

I'd guess you gave something between 63-64 money for the coin, probably closer to 64 as I think that is its grade.

 

Edit: Yeah, I know my skills stink and I haven't seen many of these in hand, but after looking at images of quite a few examples I'd still probably say 64 with a shot at 65.

 

I didn't cheat and read any of the posts other than the OP's and as a novice what I saw on the Obverse are the ticks in the left field and the mark running down form the R in Liberty and a couple little marks at the chin.

 

On the Reverse the fields are pretty clean and there are a couple ticks in the eagle's tail feathers.

 

Basically, I compared this one with this one and I agree the OP's coin looks better.

 

Thanks for letting me learn.

[BillJones]

MS-64 would be a very low ball grade for my coin.

 

First, you can't compare a 1908 No Motto $10 gold with a 1908 With Motto $10 gold. The two coins have different surface contours, and over the years I have noted a lot of inconsistencies in the grading for the earlier type. For example NGC graded this 1907 No Periods, which is the same type, only as an MS-62. Clearly this coin looks to be better than MS-62.

 

 

For reference here a 1932 $10 gold in PCGS MS-63. This is the most common date in the series and a lot of these coins have been bulk graded. At one FUN show Heritage had over 100 examples of this date in a single case. All them were "optimistically graded" IMO. This one is dead on for the MS-63 grade.

 

 

Here is a second MS-63 that was graded by NGC.

 

 

And here is another 1907 $10 gold in PCGS MS-64, which also has a CAC endorsement.

 

[wdrob]

 

Marks on the jaw and cheek, a hit under the right base of the R in LIberty, as well as in the lower and central left obverse field areas.

 

I like it at 65. The small scattered marks limit it IMHO.

 

I'd guess you gave something between 63-64 money for the coin, probably closer to 64 as I think that is its grade.

 

what I saw on the Obverse are the ticks in the left field and the mark running down form the R in Liberty and a couple little marks at the chin.

 

 

MS-66 - Coin has above average quality of strike and full original mint luster, with no more than two or three minor but noticeable contact marks. A few very light hairlines may show under magnification, or there may be one or two light scuff marks showing on frosted surfaces or in the field. The eye appeal must be above average and very pleasing for the date and mint.

 

I don't understand the high standards you folks are requiring for this coin to make a grade of MS-66. If you take away every detail that you are suggesting limits the grade, you are then looking at a MS-67 coin.

 

 

MS-67 - Coin has a sharp strike with full original luster, May have three or four very small contact marks and one more noticeable but not detracting mark. On comparable coins, one or two small single hairlines may show under magnification, or one or two partially hidden scuff marks or flaws may be present. Eye appeal is exceptional.

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Marks on the jaw and cheek, a hit under the right base of the R in LIberty, as well as in the lower and central left obverse field areas.

 

I like it at 65. The small scattered marks limit it IMHO.

 

I'd guess you gave something between 63-64 money for the coin, probably closer to 64 as I think that is its grade.

 

what I saw on the Obverse are the ticks in the left field and the mark running down form the R in Liberty and a couple little marks at the chin.

 

 

MS-66 - Coin has above average quality of strike and full original mint luster, with no more than two or three minor but noticeable contact marks. A few very light hairlines may show under magnification, or there may be one or two light scuff marks showing on frosted surfaces or in the field. The eye appeal must be above average and very pleasing for the date and mint.

 

I don't understand the high standards you folks are requiring for this coin to make a grade of MS-66. If you take away every detail that you are suggesting limits the grade, you are then looking at a MS-67 coin.

 

 

MS-67 - Coin has a sharp strike with full original luster, May have three or four very small contact marks and one more noticeable but not detracting mark. On comparable coins, one or two small single hairlines may show under magnification, or one or two partially hidden scuff marks or flaws may be present. Eye appeal is exceptional.

 

 

 

The coin appears to have more than a few marks. And my grade assessment is limited to viewing images and comparing them to other examples I have seen and graded in hand.

[coinman1794]

Marks on the jaw and cheek, a hit under the right base of the R in LIberty, as well as in the lower and central left obverse field areas.

 

I like it at 65. The small scattered marks limit it IMHO.

 

I'd guess you gave something between 63-64 money for the coin, probably closer to 64 as I think that is its grade.

 

what I saw on the Obverse are the ticks in the left field and the mark running down form the R in Liberty and a couple little marks at the chin.

 

 

MS-66 - Coin has above average quality of strike and full original mint luster, with no more than two or three minor but noticeable contact marks. A few very light hairlines may show under magnification, or there may be one or two light scuff marks showing on frosted surfaces or in the field. The eye appeal must be above average and very pleasing for the date and mint.

 

I don't understand the high standards you folks are requiring for this coin to make a grade of MS-66. If you take away every detail that you are suggesting limits the grade, you are then looking at a MS-67 coin.

 

 

MS-67 - Coin has a sharp strike with full original luster, May have three or four very small contact marks and one more noticeable but not detracting mark. On comparable coins, one or two small single hairlines may show under magnification, or one or two partially hidden scuff marks or flaws may be present. Eye appeal is exceptional.

 

 

 

....because, as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. This piece looks closer to MS65, based on the written standards, when looking at the pictures provided.

[wdrob]

 

Fair enough.

 

I believe it was quite a while back Mark had made the comment to me that he doesn't think many people use the ANA grading standards anymore in his experience and I would say I far too often try to apply them when I shouldn't.

 

Straight from ANA's web site:

 

MS-66 - Has above average quality of surface and mint luster, with no more than three or four minor or noticeable contact marks. A few light hairlines may show under magnification, or there may be one or two light scuff marks showing. Eye appeal is above average and very pleasing for the date and mint. If copper, the coin displays original or lightly toned color (which must be designated).

 

Even the ANA seems to not be able to maintain consistency in their standards from the book and the web site.

 

Regardless, Bill you have a very nice MS-65 or MS-66 and I too would be very proud to own that one.

[jamesf-migration]

looks to me like MS66+ I only see two insignificant marks on the face. Great coin. I'm jealous