It can be incredibly helpful to view large quantities of certified coins..

[MarkFeld]

I realize that I am stating the obvious here, but think it bears repeating.

 

Very recently, I had occasion to examine (and grade) hundreds of certified coins of types I don't typically view very often. And I was quickly reminded of just how helpful it can be to view large quantities of certified coins.

 

Once you have seen a dozen or two of a particular type and grade, it can/should become much easier to predict how a given coin of the same type will grade. Even for someone like me.

[mommam17]

One of my favorite numismatic experience was going twice to lot viewing at a FUN show and going through the classic commems. Wish I could do it more often......

[Kurtdog]

You're right about that isn't any big news flash. The TPGs simply see more of the market than we do. For that reason, I pretty much defer to their market grades.

[Catbert]

Mark - did you find these to be a refresher course in the type you don't normally see? Did you feel you were reeducating yourself? Just curious to see how time has impacted your memory or if grading norms have changed for the type your were examining.

[RWB]

The more you see the more you learn;

The more you learn the more you know;

The more you know the more you want to know;

The more you want to know the more you see.

[MarkFeld]

Mark - did you find these to be a refresher course in the type you don't normally see? Did you feel you were reeducating yourself? Just curious to see how time has impacted your memory or if grading norms have changed for the type your were examining.

 

Dan, I was asked to provide some opinions on a large number of coins. Once I had viewed a few examples, each, of grades I didn't typically handle, it became fairly easy and largely automatic. I think the best way I can describe it is that it served as a good refresher course.

[jom]

This is really the best way to learn how to grade. LOOK at a lot of coins. No doubt about it. I don't get enough of it since I only attend the Long Beach show and then Heritage did not have an auction last time left me feeling "rusty" so to speak.

 

However, I wonder sometimes if many collectors take advantage of these opportunities. Mark, I mentioned to you the grading classes I took at the Long Beach show the last few times and how few attended the last class. I should also mention that the 2nd class (202?) had the opportunity to look at about 150 coins as a "test" and only about 25% of the class stayed to view them and there was only TWO who actually went through all of the lots (me being one of them). I was astonished how few took advantage of this ...even the ones who PAID for the course.

 

At the same time there are countless people who complain about the TPGs on the message board and at shows. Maybe these people should spend a little more time learning themselves. OK, maybe I'm being a bit harsh but still one wonders....

 

jom

[RWB]

"At the same time there are countless people who complain about the TPGs on the message board and at shows. Maybe these people should spend a little more time learning themselves. OK, maybe I'm being a bit harsh but still one wonders...."

 

Not harsh at all -- Ignorant people are often the most negative and critical. Poor reasoning and a superficial "world view" add to the problems associated with making good, informed decisions.

[orifdoc]

Good post. There is no substitute for experience, which is true for most things in life.

[AnkurJ]

Sadly this isn't easy to do for the average collector. It may be doable with Morgans and Lincoln cents, but not so easy with early type.

[$ilverHawk]

Sadly this isn't easy to do for the average collector. It may be doable with Morgans and Lincoln cents, but not so easy with early type.

 

I respectively disagree. While personal viewing of coins at major auctions is a resource that average collectors may not be able to use, local coin clubs and local coin dealers are a source to view all types of coins "in hand". Additionally, there are enumerable internet sources that allow review of type coins.

 

Major auction research of type coins does help in refining grading skills even if only relying on images.

 

I agree with an earlier post that stated that personally viewing coins at a major auction was very educational. Viewing a coin "in hand" is the best way to evaluate the condition of the coin.

 

Carl

[GoldFinger1969]

I agree strongly with the comments on this board and thank Mark for creating this thread.

 

At the same time, let me say that in my somewhat limited experience in going to some weekend/monthly/quarterly shows it is tough to keep asking someone to take coins out of their case and feign buying interest. And you're not going to volunteer "I'm just practicing my grading skills, I'm really not interested in buying." I think that 99% of the coin guys I've run into realize that both their business and the profession benefit from all the times they endlessly open and shut their case, taking out a coin or coins in between, repeated ad nauseum. They really are good about it, and those of you who are dealers and go to shows (or own shops)....I salute you. (thumbs u

 

However....you're not looking at the coins in great lighting conditions (sometimes)....there are people around you bumping and jostling....the guy is showing stuff to other potential buyers....unless you are totally fixated on YOU it's tough to keep asking to be shown coins, even if you ARE interested in the coins (unless the guy/gal knows you and knows eventually all your observing will translate into a sale).

 

Don't get me wrong. I haven't met a single coin guy as obnoxious as some of the SOB's I used to encounter at baseball card shows 20+ years ago. And many ARE willing to take a coin out of their case....do it again....repeat.....and then smile even as you buy nothing.

 

But it is tough, unless it's someone you've just done some business with, or the show is absolutely dead or it's the end of the day, to have a guy take out 10-15 coins out of his/her case and spend 1-2 minutes per coin looking them over (even if you split it into 2 different visits). Plus, the fact that you aren't the only one at the cases -- other lookers, buyers, folks asking questions, people bumping you, etc.

 

This isn't to say that I don't try and look at coins -- I do. It is beneficial to see the coins. I'm definitely much better at grading Saint Gaudens & Liberty DE's especially compared to other coins (not that it's anything to brag about) as a result of my looking at any MS-grade DE's. I still have trouble identifying bag marks from other marks and how many are tolerable for a coin's grade given the scarcity of the coin, etc. (O-Mint's thread asking about the AU-58 was very instructive).

[MarkFeld]

I agree strongly with the comments on this board and thank Mark for creating this thread.

 

At the same time, let me say that in my somewhat limited experience in going to some weekend/monthly/quarterly shows it is tough to keep asking someone to take coins out of their case and feign buying interest. And you're not going to volunteer "I'm just practicing my grading skills, I'm really not interested in buying." I think that 99% of the coin guys I've run into realize that both their business and the profession benefit from all the times they endlessly open and shut their case, taking out a coin or coins in between, repeated ad nauseum. They really are good about it, and those of you who are dealers and go to shows (or own shops)....I salute you. (thumbs u

 

However....you're not looking at the coins in great lighting conditions (sometimes)....there are people around you bumping and jostling....the guy is showing stuff to other potential buyers....unless you are totally fixated on YOU it's tough to keep asking to be shown coins, even if you ARE interested in the coins (unless the guy/gal knows you and knows eventually all your observing will translate into a sale).

 

 

Don't get me wrong. I haven't met a single coin guy as obnoxious as some of the SOB's I used to encounter at baseball card shows 20+ years ago. And many ARE willing to take a coin out of their case....do it again....repeat.....and then smile even as you buy nothing.

 

But it is tough, unless it's someone you've just done some business with, or the show is absolutely dead or it's the end of the day, to have a guy take out 10-15 coins out of his/her case and spend 1-2 minutes per coin looking them over (even if you split it into 2 different visits). Plus, the fact that you aren't the only one at the cases -- other lookers, buyers, folks asking questions, people bumping you, etc.

 

This isn't to say that I don't try and look at coins -- I do. It is beneficial to see the coins. I'm definitely much better at grading Saint Gaudens & Liberty DE's especially compared to other coins (not that it's anything to brag about) as a result of my looking at any MS-grade DE's. I still have trouble identifying bag marks from other marks and how many are tolerable for a coin's grade given the scarcity of the coin, etc. (O-Mint's thread asking about the AU-58 was very instructive).

 

You raised a very good point.

 

A couple of other options (though certainly not easy for everyone) are coin grading classes and viewing auction lots. Additionally, sometimes wonderful collections of various coin types are on display at shows in dealers' cases or at a grading company's table.

[messydesk]

Lot viewing is a great educational opportunity.

[Nutmeg Coin]

The statistics on raw coin collections and how many grade the first time around correctly, how many CAC, how many get into PCGS or NGC holders the second or third time around would be interesting. This is subjective at least partially, would you rather have a coin with tremendous eye appeal but with a significant flaw, or do you want the run of the mill slab coin? Those on the inside of numismatics see the stratospheric coins every day, coins you never see except at the major coin shows. Most collectors deal in the sub-$2000 coins at best, so when they argue over $100 and $200 coins they really aren't in the league of the majors or anywhere near there.

 

Another analogy; I have played in major chess tournaments at the near master level. In order to effectively compete you must keep up with opening theory, the latest grandmaster games, know your opponent's style and opening repertoire, etc.. If you don't keep up your skill or talent you quickly lose the ability to maintain the professional edge. Computer programs have now solved the game, probably not too far off the electronic eye scanners with uploads to online databases will be effectively able to nail down likely grading on any given coin. Currency is a different matter but apparently the learning curve there is easier from what I have heard.

[e1cnr]

If you can make it to a major auction viewing, you can usually have hours to look at the coins if you desire. That may not be possible for many people, but should be on a goal list if you want to get better at your series. As an added benefit, you get a comparison of NGC / PCGS grading for a series as they both grade a little different for many series. Luster, strike, eye appeal, toning acceptance....

[Walkerfan]

I don't get a chance to physically view coins offered by major auctions but I spend many hours viewing auction archives from sites such as Heritage. It has proved to be very beneficial to me.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I don't get a chance to physically view coins offered by major auctions but I spend many hours viewing auction archives from sites such as Heritage. It has proved to be very beneficial to me.

 

It can be quite educational to look through many auction lots; you will see the properly graded, occasionally the undergraded and also the overgraded coins. I find auction viewing a little intimidating having people stare at you while you are looking at boxes of high value coins and having them all checked out after the viewing in case a coin was pilfered. And if I have no intention of buying the coins probably somewhat pretentious on my part. Generally the online images are quite good.

[Kurtdog]

Lot viewing is a great educational opportunity.

"Educational" on how the market is running.

[Coindude]

I would have to agree with Mark. The only problem here is that most of us don't have access to thousands of our favorite type of coin on a daily basis... pay no attention to me, I'm just jealous of you Mark!

[JJSingleton]

As obvious as it may be, it cannot be stated enough. And let me add that viewing images on line is not a good substitute. In fact is not really helpful at all.

 

I only got a firm handle on grading once I began viewing auction lots.

[MJ]

There is no substitute to viewing large quantities of coins...... Period.

 

MJ

[TonerGuy]

There is no substitute to viewing large quantities of coins...... Period.

 

MJ

 

+1

 

Is there really any other way ?

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

You raised a very good point.A couple of other options (though certainly not easy for everyone) are coin grading classes and viewing auction lots. Additionally, sometimes wonderful collections of various coin types are on display at shows in dealers' cases or at a grading company's table.

Excellent point, Mark.....I think there's still more stuff for a novice like me to read on the web -- and then there are the YouTube and PCGS/NCG videos on the Web -- that I or anybody else should hit those from the comfort of our homes before we go straight into a class.

 

Of course, if we're at a big show anyway, it's not a bad thing to attend. Just that it might be good to view some of the videos available on the web beforehand. (thumbs u

[GoldFinger1969]

This is subjective at least partially, would you rather have a coin with tremendous eye appeal but with a significant flaw, or do you want the run of the mill slab coin?

That's a great question, Nutmeg......I'd be interested in hearing from Mark (who used to grade) and some of our veteran big-time collectors: if you had an otherwise MS-67 or higher coin except for a very noticeable gash (let's say not across a face or other key device feature).....versus a run-of-the-mill MS-63 or 64 with lots of 'little things' apparent but no major defect, how do you grade that ? Which do you personally prefer ? What do most collectors prefer ?

 

Another analogy; I have played in major chess tournaments at the near master level. In order to effectively compete you must keep up with opening theory, the latest grandmaster games, know your opponent's style and opening repertoire, etc.. If you don't keep up your skill or talent you quickly lose the ability to maintain the professional edge. Computer programs have now solved the game, probably not too far off the electronic eye scanners with uploads to online databases will be effectively able to nail down likely grading on any given coin. Currency is a different matter but apparently the learning curve there is easier from what I have heard.

As an aside, those programs showing what happened to many Chess Masters -- including Bobby Fisher -- are fascinating (and sad). Then you look at a guy like Gary Kasparov and he's as normal and well-grounded as a guy you meet at the bar. Must be a combination of early-training interacting with everyone's unique brain structure or something.

 

Yes, electronic scanning and MRI-type composition analysis to verify a coin's metallic content and lack of doctoring is what I would like to see.

 

If today's TPG system is 90%/95%/whatever effective in rooting out counterfeits or doctored coins, how much would a system that might be able to guarantee 99% or 99.9% accuracy be worth ?

 

Might not be worth using on ALL coins initially (costs at first are usually very high and then drop over time) but would be certainly nice to have on coins costing a few thousand dollars and especially tens of thousands of dollars. Many collectors might not have alot of coins in those price ranges but they might have 1 or 2 or are considering a few and this kind of additional security might be worth having and paying for.

[Kurtdog]

Mark - did you find these to be a refresher course in the type you don't normally see? Did you feel you were reeducating yourself? Just curious to see how time has impacted your memory or if grading norms have changed for the type your were examining.

Dan, I was asked to provide some opinions on a large number of coins. Once I had viewed a few examples, each, of grades I didn't typically handle, it became fairly easy and largely automatic. I think the best way I can describe it is that it served as a good refresher course.

Mark, you got a feel for the market. You were a grader, so this isn't any news to you, but that's why these TPGs can grade so quickly. When I used to hear the criticisms, I used to think they're valid. How could anybody grade a coin in like ten seconds? They're "in the zone." That's why.