C.U. Bannings--Irrational?

[Nutmeg Coin]

I don't know how others feel about how aggressive "Collector's Universe" is on banning members who post incisive things they don't care for. To me it seems they are arbitrary and petty in their criteria in many cases. Such aggressive ostracization creates intimidation where active members become fearful of being banned based on questionable and unknown criteria. In many cases there have been no warnings given nor even reasons provided as to why members suddenly get kicked out unless they "humbly" appeal the expulsion. Is there any way to reform what appears to be unjust treatment of many members who actually have been leaders in numismatics for many years such as Mark Feld and RWB?

[jayman1970]

The best method of reform would be to go elsewhere, like here, with a little more freedom.

[DaveG]

My view is that any message board belongs to its host and the host sets the rules.

 

I think the rules ATS are pretty well spelled out now (and have been for several years).

 

Personally, I'm very happy that we have Mark and Roger all to ourselves and that most of the denizens of ATS don't like to come here. As a result, we have more intelligent threads and fewer waste-of-time threads.

[wdrob]

 

My view is that any message board belongs to its host and the host sets the rules.

 

And my wallet belongs to me.

 

The only power that a consumer has is their dollar. If you don't agree with a company's policies, operating practices, or their product then band together and quit using their service.

 

That will never happen.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

My view is that any message board belongs to its host and the host sets the rules.

 

I think the rules ATS are pretty well spelled out now (and have been for several years).

 

Personally, I'm very happy that we have Mark and Roger all to ourselves and that most of the denizens of ATS don't like to come here. As a result, we have more intelligent threads and fewer waste-of-time threads.

 

The rules are pretty well spelled out. However, they are enforced on an arbitrary basis. And some posters have been booted, despite not having violated any of them.

 

I had not broken or even skirted any of them when I was banned. I remember the circumstances, including what I had posted, very clearly. I have been asked by more than a few people whether I expect to post there again. And my answer has been the same, each time - the only way that would happen would be if I received a public apology first. And I am quite confident that will - and I rarely use this word - "never" happen.

[RWB]

I would probably post on the PCGS board as well as this one, if Don Willis wanted me back. But, I was deleted for making some cynical comments about one of their business ventures, so I understand the decision.

 

NGC and PCGS run the two most "authoritative" message boards, in my opinion. Each board is its own little community and they have their individual group personalities. Both are good communication tools for collectors and the sponsoring companies.

 

As for the thought of “unjust treatment” – message boards are part of a commercial enterprise and the owner can handle them however they wish. Unlike government, private business does not have to be fair, just or equitable. (Side comment: Consider your personal information – the stuff surrounding how you live and think. When the government collects parts of this, people get outraged at an invasion of their privacy. Yet, when a half-dozen private companies do this, and then sell the info to others, there is barely a peep. Government is supposed to be fair; business has no such requirement.)

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

I was banned once for bringing up a topic where an infamous tax protester started aggressively spamming the board with his gibberish. Since I had started the thread I was given the boot. When you are banned and then try to log-in it gives you this blurb:

 

 

 

Login Denied, you are not authorized to login to the forums.

 

Banning Reason:

Banned by upper management.

If you are experiencing difficulties logging in, contact the forum administrator, or try logging in again.

 

 

 

Lots of members have been banned; they just rejoin under another pseudonym! I see no ethical problem there, it they are going to be arbitrary and capricious in booting members then collectors can be evasive in who they claim to be.

[Houston Investor]

I post on both boards and agree one needs to be aware of the rules of their hosts and refrain from insulting other members or careful in public statements critical of a TPG or business. This is not a judgement of anyone or posters in these threads just my view for conducting my comments. I agree the CU culture is different as other posters here have pointed out. I prefer to stay out of some of the more controversial discussions especially if the issues really don't concern me nor am I an expert on them but have been shocked at the firestorm these can generate sometimes resulting in possible suspension of a member. The one ATS that stands out not too long ago was the case of a dealer discussing how he had handled a transaction where he made $10K on flipping a graded $4 Stella. While I had my own opinion about this, I refrained from weighing into the discussion.

 

As I have gained experience posting on these boards, I try to be conservative and focus on areas I can actually make a contribution or positive statement of support and avoid being combative. I found when I got off Lexapro (an antidepressant) I was a lot less tempted to weigh into some combative discussion with someone.

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I was banned once for bringing up a topic where an infamous tax protester started aggressively spamming the board with his gibberish. Since I had started the thread I was given the boot. When you are banned and then try to log-in it gives you this blurb:

 

 

 

Login Denied, you are not authorized to login to the forums.

 

Banning Reason:

Banned by upper management.

If you are experiencing difficulties logging in, contact the forum administrator, or try logging in again.

 

 

 

Lots of members have been banned; they just rejoin under another pseudonym! I see no ethical problem there, it they are going to be arbitrary and capricious in booting members then collectors can be evasive in who they claim to be.

 

I do see an ethical problem in posting under another identity if the poster is dishonest in signing up for it. I would not even consider posting under a fictitious account.

[BillJones]

The only time I got into trouble ATS was when I commented about an outrageously high price that an individual paid for a PCGS graded Morgan dollar in an auction. The coin had a significant number of "fly specks" (small dark spots often caused by saliva) on it that made the super high bid very suspect. I mentioned it a couple of times too often and got a warning. The gist of the warning was, "How would you feel if someone made negative comments about an item you are just purchased for a significant amount of money?" Okay, fair enough, but I think they are going to be quite unhappy when the time comes to sell, and others should take note of that.

 

At any rate I sometimes count to ten and pull my punches when I post over there. I know better than say anything negative about a PCGS product or sales promotion, but I have found that they will tolerate differences in grading opinions providing that you don't overdo it.

 

As for our hosts here, I think that they are extremely tolerant of differing points of view. I really like this site. I wish that there were more messages here because I do enjoy this venue more for a number of reasons. On the other hand I am glad that a few people ATS are not over here.

 

[TonerGuy]

And I thought I was getting picked on... its very sad to see that they continued their banning ways... I cant even remember when I was banned ATS I think it was 2004.

 

I still cant believe they banned Mark Feld. Thats just stooopid. Hes one of the most helpful and knowledgeable posters on either board. If he just liked toned Peace $ more he might be the perfect poster....

[James_OldeTowne]

I was banned a number of years ago, and have never been happier about it because it led me over to the NGC boards. Think of it this way: the PCGS coin forum is very good, the NGC forum is even better. I feel neither the need nor the desire to ever go ATS (except when someone links it).

[Nutmeg Coin]

Thanks for the feedback on this. The strange thing is how many others who had been banned from the CU forums came back, I don't know whether under a changed name and avatar, or after coming simpering back to one of the heads of the forum for "leniency". It is rather surrealistic.

 

 

I have never been booted from any other forum. And I have been a member of many others.

[WoodenJefferson]

I remember the time Bear (Gabe) who is no longer with us, got the boot over there. He had like 35,000 posts and kept the calm in rough seas most of the time, then one day he got the 'big boot' also.

 

Just about everyone aghast and astounded that this occurred and petitioned his for his re-instatement and some sort of agreement occurred and was summarily pardoned.

 

A large percentage of the bannings were warranted for bashing the host or other members but some of the people who were merely 'out spoken' on any given topic were given the heave ho, which to me is unjustifiable. It's like being labeled as a 'possible trouble maker' so your shown the door, makes no sense as I see it, but then again I'm not the owner/operator either.

 

I may have dreamed all of this but I do remember the great purge ATS in 2006, it was epic.

 

 

[e1cnr]

If part of your business model/plan includes fraud, you must be careful supplying a forum allowing people to point that out.

 

I do remember one person being banned and committing suicide within 24 hours, they also had over 30,000 posts.

[Nutmeg Coin]

There comes a point when someone with that many posts needs to realize there is something wrong, like an internet addiction?

 

What one "captain" advised of all his trekkies/groupies:

 

 

 

[PerryHall]

I do remember one person being banned and committing suicide within 24 hours, they also had over 30,000 posts.

 

I missed that one. Can you tell who us he was?

 

Edited to add that he must have had some serious personal and emotional problems because I can't imagine anyone committing suicide over a chat room.

[WoodenJefferson]

I do remember one person being banned and committing suicide within 24 hours, they also had over 30,000 posts.

 

I missed that one. Can you tell who us he was?

 

Edited to add that he must have had some serious personal and emotional problems because I can't imagine anyone committing suicide over a chat room.

 

Well, I don't know about the time frame, but his e-bay and BST bullion flipping got C.K. into some much heated water and may have been a contributing factor in the eventual out come. It was a sad day in Numismatic comminity, but it happens.

[wdrob]

Edited to add that he must have had some serious personal and emotional problems because I can't imagine anyone committing suicide over a chat room.

 

I think it would be a given that anyone that has come to the point where choosing between ending their lives and continuing in pain would have the above problems.

 

I will add as well that there are an increasing number of young school aged people being taken to trial and convicted of 'Internet Bullying"., as they call it, and laws have been enacted in many states to prosecute those involved.

 

Watch the news and you can begin "to imagine".

 

From all that I had read, it seemed that Cameron had quite a number of 'Internet Rambos' dumping on him. Add to that the financial problems and you have a cocktail for suicide.

 

Funny thing is that many of the 'Dumpers' continue to jump at any and all chances to carry on 'dumping' with the living and dismiss any and all culpability in the mentioned case of suicide.

 

They will continue this while they remain further than arms reach. Once encountered in person I can guarantee they will change their tune quick!

 

 

[Coindude]

I do remember one person being banned and committing suicide within 24 hours, they also had over 30,000 posts.

I remember when this happened and it really had nothing to do with the message board itself. It was business gone bad which just happened to involve a few meets ats, maybe here too. I had done business with this individual before and found him quite pleasant and easy to work with. It's a shame what happened but I'm sure there were many more things going on beside that. May he rest in peace and I wish nothing but the best for the family that was left behind.

[Nutmeg Coin]

It seems like they are very aggressive when members contact their moderator people, even if the complaint is ungrounded, a tough thing to determine sometimes.

 

If I remember right, it was Cameron who was unjustly accused of not delivering on contracts which was a result of a postal employee theft in his area well into the thousands of parcels! Can you imagine situations like that and how they would generate suspicion or accusation?

 

"Cameron had some bad dealings that in his words were ruining his reputation.

There was a post office worker in his town that stole 11000 packages (that's

eleven thousand packages) before he got caught and admitted some of those

were coins." https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.collecting.coins/M-inGzg6Qf0

[TonerGuy]

 

"Cameron had some bad dealings that in his words were ruining his reputation.

There was a post office worker in his town that stole 11000 packages (that's

eleven thousand packages) before he got caught and admitted some of those

were coins." https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.collecting.coins/M-inGzg6Qf0

 

How f'ing tragic. I never knew about the theft by the postal carrier. Does anyone know if the court was aware of what happened to Cameron at the sentencing of the postal carrier. I would hope that was factored into his sentence.

 

I really miss Cameron. After one of the Long Beach shows I took him out to a couple of the local strip clubs... I think it was his first such experience.

[Crohnos01]

I landed at the NGC boards because of my affiliation with ANA, so it seemed logical to post here. About the time I started to think about starting an account ATS, I started reading more and more accounts about the same types of stories in this thread. I don't want to have to work so hard that I have to second guess everything I am writing worrying if I am offending someone. For that reason, I have never joined ATS.. I wonder how many others are like myself and PCGS doesn't even know the damage their overreaching control tactics have caused to their forum participation?

[bochiman]

I think it sad that some people are so into gossip and trying to be "in the know" that they bring things up that they don't seem to have a full grasp on....but that never seems to stop anyone on an online chatroom....

 

As for "irrational bannings".....only a few (such as Mark Feld and maybe a couple of others).

 

Other people just don't seem to be able to admit that they were using someone else's resources and causing problems. I have been close to being banned there a few times. Usually when I have allowed myself to get caught up in a p*ssing contest with some mouthy miscreants. Either the mod has seen it or that person runs and complains. I explained myself to the mod, told them to look at both sides (non-edits) and make a call. At times, the other party, who went whining to get me banned, was the one banned. Not irrational in my opinion.

 

As for those who get banned and come back as an alt.....not something I see myself doing. I wouldn't get myself kicked out of a restaurant and try to put on a disguise to sneak myself back in later either. Dishonest. If the place is THAT important, do better to prevent getting punted to start with.

[cmorg-migration]

What are ATS, BST, and C.K.?

 

I had no idea that coin forums could be so brutal. It's fun to read and talk about coins.

[bochiman]

What are ATS, BST, and C.K.?

 

I had no idea that coin forums could be so brutal. It's fun to read and talk about coins.

 

Across the street (PCGS boards)

 

Buy Sell Trade forums

 

A person's initials that are being dragged up

 

[cmorg-migration]

Thank you. Now the posts make much more sense and I'll try to remember them.

[wdrob]

Moderator Notification: Do not post photos of other users without their permission.

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

It would be good if there were an international oversight board to advise sites of various hobby and business blog and bulletin boards on how to be run better. There is always room for improvement.

[Kurtdog]

Other people just don't seem to be able to admit that they were using someone else's resources and causing problems. I have been close to being banned there a few times. Usually when I have allowed myself to get caught up in a p*ssing contest with some mouthy miscreants. Either the mod has seen it or that person runs and complains. I explained myself to the mod, told them to look at both sides (non-edits) and make a call. At times, the other party, who went whining to get me banned, was the one banned. Not irrational in my opinion.

.

Poor little thing, you stood accused. Personally I'd have told the mod to go sniff himself.