Coin Photography - 28-135mm f3.5-5.6

[bsshog40]

Ahhhhhhh, the magic setup for your fantastic pictures Robec! (thumbs u

[wdrob]

 

Thank you both for that information and setup example images.

 

One has to wonder how that can be the less expensive route when they want $405.00 for that little lens alone and it is used. Then add in a good set of bellows and the adapter ... hmmm.

 

I have spent the best part of the morning searching through eBay and other retail camera outlets and I think I might be on to an alternate method using an adapter to go from the Cannon FD mount to the EF/EF-S mount and I can pick up a 50 mm FD lens really cheap. I am watching a couple of Cannon FD Bellows right now and if they do not get very high then I can be in under $200.00 for everything.

 

If that doesn't work then I might explore extension tubes.

 

 

 

 

[robec1347]

The lens cost is variable. It can range from $200+-$400. Lens adapter under $10, bellow around $50. Still cheaper than a 100mm macro.

[rmpsrpms]

The 75ARD1 is pretty expensive, but as Bob says you can get it for cheaper if you look around and wait.

 

Note that there are other lenses that can get you 90% of the way there and they can be had much cheaper, often for <$30. I have an ongoing "EL-Cheapo" lenses thread on CCF where I point out these bargain lenses. I also did a shootout of a bunch of 75mm lenses, so you can see what the differences are between them. I did the shootout using a Nikon camera, so the quality is a bit shy of what can be done with Canon, but still you can see the comparison in the lenses.

 

Here's the 75mm shootout:

 

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=98494&SearchTerms=75mm

 

And here's my EL-Cheapo lens thread:

 

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=102384

 

 

[wdrob]

 

Well I think I have it figured out now.

 

I really don't know why I did not take the term 'enlarging' lens literal. I had no idea that you were talking about the lenses for enlargers.

 

I believe I am on the right track. I just bought a Nikon EL-Nikkor 105mm F/5.6 N and the adapter ring you had mentioned earlier. If I remember right 39 mm thread is about the standard fro enlargers isn't it?

 

I already had a set of EOS Bellows on their way from a few days back. They may end up being to cheap though. Will have to wait and see.

 

From the examples you provided on the other site I am thinking that this lens will be fine for me.

 

Thanks for all the input and help - everyone.

 

 

[rmpsrpms]

The 105ELN is a good choice and I expect you'll be happy with it.

 

I found the old thread from ATS from when I first got my T2i. It has some pics using the 75ARD1, and also a comparison vs the Spiratone 75mm Macro. Here it is:

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=847746&highlight_key=y&keyword1=new%20camera

[Deerefan8420]

Bill, I also have a 105mm EL Nikkor and I think it outperforms my dedicated macro 105mm Micro-Nikkor lens! It produces wonderul images. I use the EL Nikkor much more now than I used to. I think you will like it a lot. All I need to do now is upgrade to a Canon camera! Haha!

[wdrob]

Thanks for answering that Justin. I wasn't sure if some of the shots I had seen you take were using bellows or the macro lens. I would imagine you used the Bellows on that photo contest, no?

 

Ray I will check that out. After reading through more and more of that 22 page link you gave me over at CCF I learned quite a bit. I also learned that is what sparked Brandon into using the bellows setup as well.

 

Well I have pretty much everything I need on the way and hope to get some better shots soon. I still would like a better copy stand and a better lighting setup but I am really thinking about going to the local pawn shop and finding a old drill press for next to nothing or possibly my brother in law might have an old one with a burnt up motor just laying around. He has a tendency to let junk pile up.

 

 

[mikew148]

I was able to find a great bellows on my local craigslist for $20. It's an FL type so I had to buy adapters for my Canon T3i. I had a cheapish bellows originally and did not care for the flimsy adjustment knobs.

 

This one has 3 adjustment knobs with locking knobs on the other end - one adjusts camera up/down - one for bellows up/down - and the other moves the entire unit up/down. I also like the stabilizing rod that slides down to the copy stand and has a lock nut.

 

Check out this pic -

 

 

Might be the best $20 I ever spent!

 

My point is - some of the older bellows can be had for a fraction of the price if you're willing to search them out - Good Luck!

 

[wdrob]

Oh yeah!

 

Now that is the ticket. You say that is an old Cannon FL bellows?

 

I was looking at some FD bellows on eBay today that were in the $23 or so dollar range in bidding. I just looked and noticed that it closed at $32.25 and $15.10 shipping. I probably should have bought that, but now that you have shown me the FL bellows I think I will look for that and see what I can come up with.

 

I might have to search for that model number on that copy stand you have there as well. Looks very sturdy.

 

 

[mikew148]

Oh yeah!

 

Now that is the ticket. You say that is an old Cannon FL bellows?

 

I was looking at some FD bellows on eBay today that were in the $23 or so dollar range in bidding. I just looked and noticed that it closed at $32.25 and $15.10 shipping. I probably should have bought that, but now that you have shown me the FL bellows I think I will look for that and see what I can come up with.

 

I might have to search for that model number on that copy stand you have there as well. Looks very sturdy.

 

 

The copy stand is very sturdy and I'm happy with it. Having said that, I would advise you to take a good look at the microscope stand unit posted earlier in the thread. It has a much smaller footprint and has all of the capabilities of my unit.

 

Please rely heavily on what Ray, Robec and Brandon have to say regarding this type of photography. I'm a relative newbie and because of their input I'm taking much better images than I had previously.

 

Personally, I would contact Ray and ask him to build me a microscope stand unit if I was starting fresh in the realm of bellows - coin photography setups.

 

It's like taking karate lessons from Chuck Norris

 

[rmpsrpms]

Hah! Thanks Mike.

 

That Canon FL Bellows is a sleeper. The FL and FD/Auto have the same basic functionality, though I was not aware of the stabilizing rod...very cool. Whether you buy a FL or FD bellows, you still need to adapt both ends, so there is no disadvantage to the older FL model, and it has sort of a cool steampunk look to it anyway.

 

Ray

[wdrob]

 

I would advise you to take a good look at the microscope stand unit posted earlier in the thread. It has a much smaller footprint and has all of the capabilities of my unit.

 

 

Well I actually have two microscopes on their way.

 

Look like they have the capability to be converted easily and that will leave the other for eventually attaching a camera to it possibly.

 

If they arrive and serve their purpose well then I may never get a copy stand. I just like to have options and know what is available.

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

I'm looking at getting a camera setup in the not-too-distant future. Can you explain what the bellows is, and its purpose?

[wdrob]

 

I will not even try to confuse you as I am sure that you were posing that question to Ray, Bob, or one of the others with the knowledge. I understand it enough for myself but not to explain it to others.

 

With the nice photos that you take I always assumed that you had one of the better setups.

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

I will not even try to confuse you as I am sure that you were posing that question to Ray, Bob, or one of the others with the knowledge. I understand it enough for myself but not to explain it to others.

 

With the nice photos that you take I always assumed that you had one of the better setups.

 

 

I have an 7 to 8 year old Canon PowerShot point-and-shoot. Its a good little camera, but my pictures are nothing compared to the big boys.

 

Any quality pictures I post were taken by Bob - I send all my stuff to him.

[Deerefan8420]

Thanks for answering that Justin. I wasn't sure if some of the shots I had seen you take were using bellows or the macro lens. I would imagine you used the Bellows on that photo contest, no?

 

You're right Bill! I did use the bellows and the EL Nikkor for the photo contest. What I like about the EL Nikkor the most is its small size, which also helps to bring the lighting closer to the lens for those coins requiring higher angled lighting. I think you'll be very happy with it once you get it all srt up and working.

[wdrob]

 

I hope so Justin. I have been putting off sinking some money into photo equipment for some time but what caused me to change priority is that 1849 $1 Gold 13 mm coin I bought a while back. There was just absolutely no way in the world I was ever going to be able take quality images of coins that small unless I put some money into the gear.

 

 

 

I don't think I will have any trouble capturing images better than this one after I get it all set up. That was not a picture I took btw.

 

I think I will be sending Ray a consulting fee for all his help. Either that or a gift that I think he could use and enjoy. (thumbs u

 

 

[rmpsrpms]

I don't think I will have any trouble capturing images better than this one after I get it all set up. That was not a picture I took btw.

 

I think I will be sending Ray a consulting fee for all his help. Either that or a gift that I think he could use and enjoy.

 

 

Your 105ELN will do the job, and it will be superior to the image you're showing here.

 

No worries on consulting or gift, I enjoy this stuff and helping folks take better pics. If your stands don't work out, maybe I can build one for you...

[robec1347]

Ray is the go to guy.

 

Having him build my set up with these newly discovered lenses (to me anyway) and microscope stand has made my life much easier. I don't pull out nearly as much hair as I used to.

 

Next you could test different lighting. Another must is to get your camera tethered to your computer for full camera control and pinpoint focus.

[bsshog40]

I have a Canon T4i. I've read up a little on the 100mm macro lens for this. They seem to be pretty good from what I'm reading. A little pricey though. Anyone used this before?

[robec1347]

I have a Canon T4i. I've read up a little on the 100mm macro lens for this. They seem to be pretty good from what I'm reading. A little pricey though. Anyone used this before?

That is what I used prior to my bellows system. I still use it, but very rarely. I only use it for coins larger than Morgan sized coins. It is a very good lens, but to me it feels clunky in comparison and my results with it are not nearly as good.

[rmpsrpms]

I'm looking at getting a camera setup in the not-too-distant future. Can you explain what the bellows is, and its purpose?

 

A regular ("dedicated") macro lens has three (or four) parts

 

1) lens optics

2) adjustable aperture

3) focusing helicoid

4) tripod mount

 

The bellows replaces items 3 and 4. It also allows a much bigger distance between lens optics and camera, so you can get a much higher magnification ratio.

 

You still need to add the lens optics and aperture. There were vintage lenses marketed by most manufacturers as "bellows lenses" that contain just items 1 and 2 above. Enlarging/duplicating lenses were designed to work on the bellows built into a photo enlarging system, and can be easily (and highly successfully) adapted as "taking" lenses. All of these lens types (bellows, enlarging, duplicating) contain adjustable apertures as well, but they must be manually set.

 

For specific (higher) magnification ranges, microscope objectives can also be successfully adapted onto bellows and provide superb results. Most microscope objectives are fixed at their optimum aperture, and are not adjustable.

 

Other classes of lenses that can be used on bellows are fixed-aperture reproduction lenses used in scanners, and industrial inspection lenses used in various manufacturing lines.

 

All the lens types I have listed have potential to give you superior results versus dedicated macro lenses. This is because they are optically optimized for the specific magnification ranges we have interest in for coin photography. Dedicated macro lens designs must focus all the way from infinity to 1:2 or 1:1, so their design is always a compromise between good infinity or portrait performance and good macro performance, and none of them offer excellent performance in all applications. Many dedicated macro lenses only go to 1:2 magnification, while many others go to 1:1. With bellows, you have choices of lenses and objectives that can take you from infinity all the way to 100:1 magnification!! .

 

So ultimately, using bellows gives you access to this wide variety of lenses that you would otherwise have no way of mounting to your camera, allowing you to select lenses that give you the best performance in the range you're operating.

 

Ray

[wdrob]

Next you could test different lighting. Another must is to get your camera tethered to your computer for full camera control and pinpoint focus.

 

Well since you and Ray opened my eyes to the possibilities I have expanded massively in what I have coming. All it took is for me to finally realize that Ray was talking about the lens for an actual enlarger.

 

I wanted both setups and have found a older Omega C-700 enlarger with the copy stand and bellows. I have an idea on that. I think I can mount an adapter ring right on the top of the bellows, after removing the light head, and then set that one up (it is not that big of a footprint) with a different lens. I think I did good for the entire enlarger, stand, bellows, everything for $67.50 delivered.

 

As far as tethering the camera I am already doing that with the test shots I took a while back. That is sweet!!! Having all that control right there at your mouse and being able to see the immediate changes on the monitor. (thumbs u

 

 

 

 

 

[robec1347]

 

As far as tethering the camera I am already doing that with the test shots I took a while back. That is sweet!!! Having all that control right there at your mouse and being able to see the immediate changes on the monitor. (thumbs u

 

 

And not having to squint in the eye piece or break your back bending over the camera while squinting is another HUGE plus.

[bsshog40]

 

As far as tethering the camera I am already doing that with the test shots I took a while back. That is sweet!!! Having all that control right there at your mouse and being able to see the immediate changes on the monitor. (thumbs u

 

 

And not having to squint in the eye piece or break your back bending over the camera while squinting is another HUGE plus.

I use this also, but when it comes to fine tuning my focus, I use the cameras screen to zoom in and manually focus.

[rmpsrpms]

 

As far as tethering the camera I am already doing that with the test shots I took a while back. That is sweet!!! Having all that control right there at your mouse and being able to see the immediate changes on the monitor. (thumbs u

 

 

And not having to squint in the eye piece or break your back bending over the camera while squinting is another HUGE plus.

I use this also, but when it comes to fine tuning my focus, I use the cameras screen to zoom in and manually focus.

 

I'm sure you know this,but for benefit of others the Canon EOS Utility/ZoomBrowser control software allows you to zoom in at 100% (1:1 pixel view) for critical focusing. The overall image from the software is not particularly sharp, but the 100% view should be exactly what you will see after you take the shot. In fact it's very useful to do A/B comparison between the 100% Live View image and the recorded image. If they are not exactly the same, then you likely have incorrect settings, or perhaps there is too much vibration in your setup, or some other issue.

 

Once you start to manually focus with the Live View image (on-screen or in-camera) you will wonder how you could ever trust your camera's autofocus to choose the best focus for you. Zoomed-in, you will see that only one plane is truly in focus, and that focal plane varies across the coin. What would autofocus pick? Who knows?

 

One more tidbit to share...

 

In normal photography, when subject distance is long compared to the lens focal length, focusing is accomplished by moving the helicoid (or bellows) to move the lens toward or away from the camera. But at macro magnifications, the method is a bit different. The bellows is used to set the desired magnification by moving the lens toward or away from the camera, and then the focus is set by moving the entire camera + lens toward or away from the subject. This is an important point, because if you move just the lens toward or away from the subject, the magnification, and the apparent size of the subject, change. To keep your coin images all the same size, focusing must be accomplished by moving the whole system.

 

Ray

[bsshog40]

I always use my Live View for focusing. It will zoom from 5x to 10x. I zoom to 5x and center my live view where I can see the lettering and the high relief of the coin. I manually focus and shoot then. I use my zoom browser to see the full coin with lighting and such.

[Deerefan8420]

On my Nikon, I have the ability to "tether" my camera to my HDTV through the HDMI port on the camera. Although I have no control over the camera itself, I can still see the Live View on my monitor and it helps out greatly when focusing. Plus, it saves on my back from having to bend over my camera or contort myself into an awkward angle in order to look through the viewfinder. I thinking of switching over to a Canon camera since the tethering ability seems to be a bit more advantageous over most others when doing macro photography.

 

One thing I have noticed with my camera while using the bellows is that it doesn't seem to "droop" down as much. When I have my dedicated macro lens attached, I usually have to use a piece of string to pull my camera back up to compensate for the droop and get it back level. With the bellows, it doesn't droop near as much and I can compensate for the difference by placing my gray card under the bottom edge of the coin slab and it's good to go.

[bsshog40]

Has anyone seen one of these Fotodiox lenses or used them? Would it work? Seems more feasible pricewise.