Coin Photography - 28-135mm f3.5-5.6

[wdrob]

 

Would this aperture range on this macro lens be adequate or would I be constantly be cursing myself for not spending more to get down to 2.8?

 

 

[rmpsrpms]

f/2.8 is only useful when narrow depth of field is needed, ie not for coins. You actually want the widest DOF you can get without getting into diffraction territory. Believe it or not, there is an optimum aperture for coins given the size of the coin and the camera sensor pixel pitch, and it's quite a bit wider than f/2.8. Only time you need a wide aperture like f/2.8 is when you are shooting very high magnifications, and likely the lens you're considering won't do that anyway...Ray

[wdrob]

 

Only time you need a wide aperture like f/2.8 is when you are shooting very high magnifications, and likely the lens you're considering won't do that anyway...Ray

 

 

OK so for a lens dedicated for coins that would be fine I take it? When you compare that lens to a 100 mm F/2.8 the price difference is nearly massive.

 

I am curious as to what you would consider 'high magnification'. Would this closeup of a quarter dollar not be anywhere near high magnification?

 

 

Thanks

[ldhair]

Why would you want an 35-135mm for coins?

[wdrob]

Why would you want an 35-135mm for coins?

 

Larry, from all that I have been reading the best results are obtained by getting farther away from the coin. Is that not the case after all?

 

I was looking at this lens, Canon EF 28-135mm f3.5-5.6 IS USM Macro Lens 28-135/3.5-5.6, and comparing it to the Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L 1:2.8 Macro IS USM and was curious as to which would be sufficient. The latter is about $500 to $600 more.

 

 

 

 

[bsshog40]

I use my canon 18-55mm (macro 0.8). I usually shoot off my copy stand from about 10-12" away. My pixels are set at the largest setting of over 5,000pixels. Easy to crop down with clarity still there. My canon is HD.

[wdrob]

 

I use my canon 18-55mm (macro 0.8). I usually shoot off my copy stand from about 10-12" away. My pixels are set at the largest setting of over 5,000pixels. Easy to crop down with clarity still there. My canon is HD.

 

Bobby, that is what I have now and it takes good pictures but I have read many posts here, read a great bit of (I think) Mark Goodmans web site, and if there is one thing that keeps coming up is using a Zoom Macro Lens.

 

There is no substitute for a macro lens. 100mm is a good workhorse but longer never hurts.

Lance.

 

I read stuff like this and then ask a question and Larry comes back with questioning why I would even want that for coin photography.

 

I guess I am lost. A great amount of conflicting information it would seem.

 

 

[bsshog40]

I use my canon 18-55mm (macro 0.8). I usually shoot off my copy stand from about 10-12" away. My pixels are set at the largest setting of over 5,000pixels. Easy to crop down with clarity still there. My canon is HD.

 

Bobby, that is what I have now and it takes good pictures but I have read many posts here, read a great bit of (I think) Mark Goodmans web site, and if there is one thing that keeps coming up is using a Zoom Macro Lens.

 

There is no substitute for a macro lens. 100mm is a good workhorse but longer never hurts.

Lance.

 

I read stuff like this and then ask a question and Larry comes back with questioning why I would even want that for coin photography.

 

I guess I am lost. A great amount of conflicting information it would seem.

 

I nice macro lens would be very nice but they can also be very expensive. I have a cheap macro that screws to my 18-55 lens but it can lose some focus around the edges. I'm able to get what I'm happy with on my 18-55. I settle with what I can afford.

[rmpsrpms]

 

I am curious as to what you would consider 'high magnification'. Would this closeup of a quarter dollar not be anywhere near high magnification?

 

Thanks

 

That is getting up there. With a 18MP APS-C camera like a Canon T2/3/4i or a Nikon D7000, you need to be at 2:1 or higher mag to benefit from f/2.8.

 

The Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro can only go to 1:1, so you would always stop it down to f/4 or smaller. Seems a waste to pay a lot of money for a f/2.8 lens when it is not beneficial to use it wider than f/4 !!

 

Have you considered going the bellows route rather than buying a dedicated macro lens? A bellows with duplicating/repro lens is much better optimized for coins than is the dedicated macro. Plus, it's a whole lot cheaper.

[wdrob]

 

That is getting up there. With a 18MP APS-C camera like a Canon T2/3/4i or a Nikon D7000, you need to be at 2:1 or higher mag to benefit from f/2.8.

 

The Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro can only go to 1:1, so you would always stop it down to f/4 or smaller. Seems a waste to pay a lot of money for a f/2.8 lens when it is not beneficial to use it wider than f/4 !!

 

Have you considered going the bellows route rather than buying a dedicated macro lens? A bellows with duplicating/repro lens is much better optimized for coins than is the dedicated macro. Plus, it's a whole lot cheaper.

 

The Cannon T3i with a 18-55 mm f/3.5-5.6 is the camera that I have and the one that took that picture above. Bobby may be right and that lens alone may be adequate but after reading more and more and seeing other setups, it seems as though getting the higher angle of lighting, which means further away from the subject, is the only way I will be able to get the results I am after.

 

I know that Brandon uses bellows and he has some excellent results, so I have considered that, however I would probably want to use the lens outdoors from time to time as a general purpose zoom lens as well but that Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro is too much money for me to justify. That was the reason I was inquiring about the cheaper Cannon 28-135 mm f/3.5-5.6 lens that I was eyeing used from a photo shop with a 6 month warranty for only $235.00 or maybe less.

 

I am leaning that way since it will enable me to still make use of IS and USM.

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[robec1347]

This is from the bellows and duplicating lens Ray was referring to.

 

His closeups are spectacular. This setup is cheaper than a 100mm dedicated macro.

 

[$ilverHawk]

 

I am curious as to what you would consider 'high magnification'. Would this closeup of a quarter dollar not be anywhere near high magnification?

 

Thanks

 

That is getting up there. With a 18MP APS-C camera like a Canon T2/3/4i or a Nikon D7000, you need to be at 2:1 or higher mag to benefit from f/2.8.

 

The Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro can only go to 1:1, so you would always stop it down to f/4 or smaller. Seems a waste to pay a lot of money for a f/2.8 lens when it is not beneficial to use it wider than f/4 !!

 

Have you considered going the bellows route rather than buying a dedicated macro lens? A bellows with duplicating/repro lens is much better optimized for coins than is the dedicated macro. Plus, it's a whole lot cheaper.

 

I have a Canon S5 IS. Would you point me in the direction of a bellows set up? Exactly what do I need to purchase to have a bellows with duplicating/repro lens?

 

Carl

[rmpsrpms]

The bellows/lens combo replaces the lens mounted to a DSLR. Unfortunately, your S5 IS does not have a detachable lens, so can't be used with a bellows. You would need to get a DSLR. I have been recommending Canon XS for coins, but a T2/3/4i are also excellent.

 

See this (now aging) thread for a lot of info on bellows setups for coin photography:

 

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=87392

[bsshog40]

The bellows/lens combo replaces the lens mounted to a DSLR. Unfortunately, your S5 IS does not have a detachable lens, so can't be used with a bellows. You would need to get a DSLR. I have been recommending Canon XS for coins, but a T2/3/4i are also excellent.

 

See this (now aging) thread for a lot of info on bellows setups for coin photography:

 

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=87392

I use a canon t4i myself. What would be a reasonably price bellows for my camera. Can you link me to one so I actually know what I need and would be looking for?

[rmpsrpms]

I would recommend the Pentax Auto Bellows. It is short enough to work with the 75ARD1 lens, and is easy to adapt to Canon. Here's a link to a BIN on eBay. You can probably get one for less on true auction:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Asahi-Pentax-Auto-Bellows-Set-for-35mm-SLR-from-Japan-Mint-in-Box-/141202124719?pt=US_Lens_Adapters_Mounts_Tubes&hash=item20e04d6faf

 

You'll need adapters.

 

The Vivitar bellows is also excellent but if you use it on a regular copy stand you'll need the focus rail also. I don't see any bellows plus rails available on eBay right now but they show up often and for reasonable prices.

 

 

[wdrob]

 

It is my understanding, and correct me if I am wrong, but with any bellows setup you will loose electrical connection and the use of features on your DSLR such as aperture priority,etc..

 

I am not necessarily implying that is a negative that would preclude one from buying, however I am just curious to know if that is in fact the case.

 

 

 

[bsshog40]

I would recommend the Pentax Auto Bellows. It is short enough to work with the 75ARD1 lens, and is easy to adapt to Canon. Here's a link to a BIN on eBay. You can probably get one for less on true auction:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Asahi-Pentax-Auto-Bellows-Set-for-35mm-SLR-from-Japan-Mint-in-Box-/141202124719?pt=US_Lens_Adapters_Mounts_Tubes&hash=item20e04d6faf

 

You'll need adapters.

 

The Vivitar bellows is also excellent but if you use it on a regular copy stand you'll need the focus rail also. I don't see any bellows plus rails available on eBay right now but they show up often and for reasonable prices.

 

Thanks for the link. I actually thought that a bellows was a type of interchangeable macro lens. Kind of like the regular lenses I have now. This seems to get just a little more extravagant than I need.

[rmpsrpms]

It is my understanding, and correct me if I am wrong, but with any bellows setup you will loose electrical connection and the use of features on your DSLR such as aperture priority,etc..

 

I am not necessarily implying that is a negative that would preclude one from buying, however I am just curious to know if that is in fact the case.

 

 

 

Most DSLRs will operate in Aperture Priority mode with bellows. That's how I set up my own shots, as I don't want to mess around too much with shutter speed like I would have to in full Manual mode.

[wdrob]

 

I must be confused from what I have read then since I am under the impression that aperture is controlled in the lens (based on the size of the opening that allows light to enter and then reach the CMOS) and not the camera body. If there is no electrical connection to the lens then the body can not tell the lens what aperture to take the picture at.

 

Just to be clear on your experience; if I had a bellows arrive tomorrow then theoretically I could attach my lens onto the bellows and the camera would still have aperture control?

[ldhair]

You will set the aperture on the lens where you want it, by hand.

The camera body will select it's own shutter speed.

 

[wdrob]

Larry, you can't set the aperture by hand on a electronic lens. It is not like the old SLR days.

 

 

 

[ldhair]

Really. Damn I feel old.

[Deerefan8420]

Larry, you can't set the aperture by hand on a electronic lens. It is not like the old SLR days.

 

 

 

If you use your camera lens on the bellows, then your aperture will remain open at it's largest opening since the camera will have no way to control the aperture. You would need a lens like Ray suggests, a duplicating or repro lens, with a manually adjustable aperture.

 

 

Edited to add- In Aperture Priority mode, the camera measures the amount of light coming in to the sensor and automatically chooses the best shutter speed for the lighting. In Manual Mode, you have to adjust the shutter speed yourself. It has been in my experience that in Aperture Prioriry mode, you'll need to use a bit of exposure compensation as well. In manual mode, I don't have to use exposure comp. at all.

[wdrob]

You and me both. I can remember back as a kid having a darkroom in a walk in closet. My Uncle was a professional photographer and we always had a darkroom for many years. Nothing to match his but we would turn a part of the basement in one place we lived into a darkroom using cardboard for walls.

 

Here is the scoop on Modern DSLR's and why I am asking about the lens and bellows setup on my camera.

 

Using Lens Adapters and Mounts

Modern cameras utilize electronic communications between the camera body and the lens to handle autofocus capabilities, aperture controls, and auto exposure. Because many adapters are purely mechanical in nature, they are unable to relay the appropriate signals and these features are consequently disabled. Also, adapters can potentially disrupt the focal range of a camera system by shifting the expected distance between the lens and the camera body. Understanding why and how this is problematic will help you navigate past these obstacles.

 

___________________________________________________________

 

 

Now that is where I am positioned so Ray saying that the camera will still function using aperture priority makes no sense to me and I have not found a duplicating lens with manual aperture control that I can use unless I possibly adapt from Cannon EF/EF-S mount to some other off brand.

 

Maybe he can tell me where I can find a duplicating lens that has manual aperture control for the Cannon EF mount.

 

 

 

 

[Deerefan8420]

Now that is where I am positioned so Ray saying that the camera will still function using aperture priority makes no sense to me and I have not found a duplicating lens with manual aperture control that I can use unless I possibly adapt from Cannon EF/EF-S mount to some other off brand.

 

Maybe he can tell me where I can find a duplicating lens that has manual aperture control for the Cannon EF mount.

 

The control that Aperture Priority has is measuring the amount of light coming in to the sensor and then automatically choosing the best shutter speed. Let's say for instance that you set your Aperture to f7.1, then the camera will automatically adjust the shutter speed to 1/320. The Apertre Priority mode does not automatically change the Aperture opening. That is something you have to do manually, whether it's through the camera functions or on the lens itself, changing the Aperture opening is a manual task. With Ray's bellows setup, the camera can still function on the Aperture Priority mode because it is only measuring the amount of light and then choosing the best shutter speed.

 

And I'm quite sure that Ray can find just about anything you need. Hell, I'll bet he even has a few extras laying around somewhere.

[wdrob]

The control that Aperture Priority has is measuring the amount of light coming in to the sensor and then automatically choosing the best shutter speed.

 

Yes I am aware that aperture priority is giving the aperture the 'Priority' and that the camera computer then sets the shutter speed.

 

Let's say for instance that you set your Aperture to f7.1, then the camera will automatically adjust the shutter speed to 1/320. The Apertre Priority mode does not automatically change the Aperture opening. That is something you have to do manually, whether it's through the camera functions or on the lens itself, changing the Aperture opening is a manual task.

 

Yes you are absolutely correct except the blades on an electronic lens can not open or close manually. There is not an aperture ring to adjust manually therefore you can set what ever you want to set in the camera body but unless the lens blades are actually moving it does no good. You are wide open and that is it.

 

Do you use bellows?

 

If not; why not?

 

 

[rmpsrpms]

Think of a bellows/lens combo as a manual lens, and don't expect to be able to use any of your existing lenses. They are not compatible, and it doesn't make sense anyway. Bellows give you the functionality of the focus helicoid that is built in to standard lenses, but over a much wider range. I've never used nor recommend using regular lenses mounted on bellows, only purpose-made bellows lenses, enlarging/duplicating lenses, or microscope objectives...Ray

[wdrob]

Think of a bellows/lens combo as a manual lens, and don't expect to be able to use any of your existing lenses. They are not compatible, and it doesn't make sense anyway. Bellows give you the functionality of the focus helicoid that is built in to standard lenses, but over a much wider range. I've never used nor recommend using regular lenses mounted on bellows, only purpose-made bellows lenses, enlarging/duplicating lenses, or microscope objectives...Ray

 

OK Ray. That is where I reach a brick wall and maybe you can point me in the right direction since you also use a EOS camera.

 

Where do I find a Repro/Duplicating lens for the bellows? I have searched and searched and I have yet to find the lens for the Cannon EF/EF-S mount. This is what the 'Pro's' (I use that respectfully because I am well aware of the professional results that you get) seem to use and it does provide for use of a regular lens and maintains electronic control of the lens from the body. But it is very expensive.

 

So please, point me in the right direction to the Cannon EF/EF-S Mount Repro Lens.

 

 

 

 

[rmpsrpms]

A lot of folks are using the 75mm f/4 Apo Rodagon D M1:1 duplication lens. Here is a link to one available on eBay:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rodenstock-Apo-Rodagon-D-75mm-f4-/321335183174?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item4ad111c746

 

If you buy that super-expensive Novoflex bellows, you'll need an EOS adapter for it. Here is one, again from eBay:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LEICA-JUPITER-M39-39MM-LENS-TO-CANON-EOS-Mount-Adapter-/160380996517?pt=US_Lens_Adapters_Mounts_Tubes&hash=item255773cba5

 

 

[robec1347]

This image shows the comparative size difference of a 180mm macro, 100mm macro and the 75mm f/4 Apo Rodagon D M1:1 duplication lens. My results with the much smaller Rodagon lens has far exceeded the results from either of the more expensive and larger macro lenses.

 

 

 

This image shows a bellows on a microscope stand (put together by Ray, rmpsrpms) and a bellows attached to a copy stand. Since I have been working with the microscope stand I rarely ever use the large copy stand system. Note the difference in real estate needed between the microscope system and copy stand system.