Letting CAC decide what stays your collection ?? hm

[bochiman]

Boy, talk about jumping on the bandwagon without even having all the info.....

 

Take some stuff out of context, let others not bother to get full information, and watch accusations of "koolaid", "marketing", etc go flying.

 

Read Oreville's post and see, as has been stated, he had a rhyme/reason to what he did. He enjoyed the coin and sold it when it didn't CAC (and was no longer enjoyable at the same time.....heck, might have been sold even if CAC'ed).

The G4 piece was stated as a FUN pickup (FUN = enjoyment, not the coinshow in Florida ).

 

Hmmm...he also did keep some FUN NGC older slabs.

 

People....if you are going to jump on your tired old bandwagon of claiming koolaid (which, it seems obvious, sits on this side of the tracks as well...), you really should get all your info first rather than Assuming and looking stupid to those of us that are non-emotional about things and look at the whole picture.

[oreville-migration]

CSdot,

 

Sure I care what other coin collectors think of my slabbed coins. I am now 60 plus years old and am doing everything I can to protect my loved ones in case I kick the bucket!

 

Keep in mind that caring about what other collectors think about my collection (as well as what I think about my collection) hopefully makes my collection more salable when my wife and daughter needs to sell my collection someday.

 

but don't worry! All of my unopened GSA silver dollar mailing boxes or obw rolls have never been graded by a TPG so I am on both sides of the fence!

 

Additionally, my Cal Fractional gold set has never been reviewed by CAC either as CAC does not do cal Fractional gold.

 

[oreville-migration]

Oh yes, I indeed collect plastic now!! !

 

I now own 10 black NGC slabs, some green stickered, some gold stickered and some not stickered.

 

I also own a lot of the scarce NGC 2.1 all white slab as well.

 

One black NGC slab is the poster girl walker showing the most amount of PVC I have EVER seen on any coin EVER! It is actually gorgeous!!! . of course it will NOT sticker!

 

Another one is a opened black NGC slab that has a $20 saint. it will someday be useful for research purposes.

[FishyOne]

Thanks for responding here oreville. I appreciate your comments. I hope you don't mind me linking the 2009 Heritage sale of your 1916-D Merc. It is a nice piece.

 

2009 HA.com Archive

 

 

[MJ]

Orville is a wise man

 

MJ

[oreville-migration]

look at the back of the chin on the 16-D where it meets the neck. Too much action there.

 

Indeed a 67 but not a 67.4 or better for a sticker.

 

I also sold the 1945-P 10c in NGC MS-67FB for a very good price at the same Heritage sale in 2009. That dime also did not sticker. The bands were the just made it full bands variety.

 

This was the same dime Harry Foreman showed to me for just under $300 in 1970!!

 

 

 

[EVillageProwler]

BTW, I see nothing wrong with a collector (no matter how experienced) to utilize the opinion of JA (one of our industry's most respected dealers) as one of the inputs in deciding how to manage his collection.

 

Heck, I did the same many years ago with another prominent dealer (this was before the days of CAC or even plus grades). And, I've seen many folks over the years rely on DW (for gold) or RS (for IHC) to help formulate what goes into their collections or what comes out.

 

Let me also point out that BillJones (thread OP) is a retired dealer who also has a lot of experience. In no way would I knock a collector for soliciting BJ's opinion and using that to help decide what to do with his holdings.

 

I think this thread badly mis-represented Oreville's actions and motivations. I think BJ is right to decry koolaid behavior, but in this case he chose a bad example. The resulting negative comments about Oreville is a form of reverse koolaid -- where folks who hate sticker/insert koolaid behavior so much that they are too quick to jump to conclusions and thus drink the anti-sticker/insert koolaid.

 

EVP

[mumu]

I think there's a tale of 2 stickers here. When dealing with 6 figure coins, the CAC idea is unquestionable, and obviously a number much smaller than that is the threshold. But the general anti- CAC opinion given about the service loses these coins in the sea of 50$ MS 64 Morgan and Peace dollars people are sending in for CAC and the ensuing price bloat of these widgets due the sticker. Many of us are parked in this sub $500 coin space and I think that is where the opposition is coming, but it is mismatched with supporters of the CAC service that are parked in the $5000(and I am just picking an arbitrary number here that qualifies) coin space and above.

 

Does it make sense to spend 12.50 stickering fees on a $10,000+ coin you expect to one day help put a family member thru school? Clearly. What does the sticker do for a 75$ common date morgan?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Oh yes, I indeed collect plastic now!! !

 

I now own 10 black NGC slabs, some green stickered, some gold stickered and some not stickered.

 

I also own a lot of the scarce NGC 2.1 all white slab as well.

 

One black NGC slab is the poster girl walker showing the most amount of PVC I have EVER seen on any coin EVER! It is actually gorgeous!!! . of course it will NOT sticker!

 

Another one is a opened black NGC slab that has a $20 saint. it will someday be useful for research purposes.

 

As I recall, and I could be wrong, you may also have a Gate Plate that has not been CAC'd.

[bsshog40]

Boy, talk about jumping on the bandwagon without even having all the info.....

 

Take some stuff out of context, let others not bother to get full information, and watch accusations of "koolaid", "marketing", etc go flying.

 

Read Oreville's post and see, as has been stated, he had a rhyme/reason to what he did. He enjoyed the coin and sold it when it didn't CAC (and was no longer enjoyable at the same time.....heck, might have been sold even if CAC'ed).

The G4 piece was stated as a FUN pickup (FUN = enjoyment, not the coinshow in Florida ).

 

Hmmm...he also did keep some FUN NGC older slabs.

 

People....if you are going to jump on your tired old bandwagon of claiming koolaid (which, it seems obvious, sits on this side of the tracks as well...), you really should get all your info first rather than Assuming and looking stupid to those of us that are non-emotional about things and look at the whole picture.

To be honest Ron, I have ventured here and ATS for over 7 yrs now. I see a lot more bashing of NGC over there than PCGS bashing done here. Of course, it's not really bashing of PCGS than it is more bashing of the people (kool-aid drinkers) who think that their pcgs slabbed coin collection is far superior than those that are in ngc slabs. I like both tpg's and the bashing just gets old sometimes. As for the kool-aid bashing here, you have to admit, the thread didn't contain all of the context of the original OP from ATS and this was probably the main reason the kool-aid content started. People have a tendency to look stupid when they are not given all the proper information.

[jpcienkus]

I think there's a tale of 2 stickers here. When dealing with 6 figure coins, the CAC idea is unquestionable, and obviously a number much smaller than that is the threshold. But the general anti- CAC opinion given about the service loses these coins in the sea of 50$ MS 64 Morgan and Peace dollars people are sending in for CAC and the ensuing price bloat of these widgets due the sticker. Many of us are parked in this sub $500 coin space and I think that is where the opposition is coming, but it is mismatched with supporters of the CAC service that are parked in the $5000(and I am just picking an arbitrary number here that qualifies) coin space and above.

 

Does it make sense to spend 12.50 stickering fees on a $10,000+ coin you expect to one day help put a family member thru school? Clearly. What does the sticker do for a 75$ common date morgan?

 

I agree with your post 100%. I'm planning on selling about a dozen + common date Morgan's in MS64 grade. I plan to sell them on eBay. I don't plan to send them to CAC because they are sub $100 coins. IMO, not worth it. I'm sure I'll be fielding questions about CAC from some potential buyers as many of the coins are in PCGS plastic with OGH. I did NOT buy these coins because of the plastic. I bought them very early on in my collecting to learn about grading for very little investment. I've since upgraded all of them and no longer need them in the collection. Will some of them garner the green bean? I think some would, but I'll let someone else send them in if they want.

[AnkurJ]

After reading Orville's post it all makes sense to me. As I guessed, his concerns was NGC's reputation and it seems that was the case...especially since the coin didn't CAC. It also seems to me the guy probably would have sold the dime even if it had been CAC'd as it looked as if he was getting out of it anyway.

 

The G4 just seemed to be a "fun" pick up. I mean, why not? It wasn't as if he was replacing the 67 with the G4 or anything.

 

As to his selling just NGC CAC coins. I didn't really read that in his post as, like I said above, he was just getting out of some material.

 

However the market does seem to favor PCGS CAC over NGC CAC. I think that is stupid but that seems to be the way things are.

 

jom

 

Well said.

Different strokes for different folks. People collect many ways and I am not about to dictate to anyone what they should or shouldn't do.

 

That being said, very few collectors have the knowledge and experience that you have Bill.

[Kurtdog]

Take some stuff out of context, let others not bother to get full information, and watch accusations of "koolaid", "marketing", etc go flying.

Can anybody doubt marketing influences perceptions? Can anybody doubt that's the whole point of marketing, well duh? Can you, yourself, doubt it? If that's a rhetorical question, so much for the perception PCGS is superior. PCGS is superior in one aspect, marketing. That's it. Get a grip on it.

[EVillageProwler]

Take some stuff out of context, let others not bother to get full information, and watch accusations of "koolaid", "marketing", etc go flying.

Can anybody doubt marketing influences perceptions? Can anybody doubt that's the whole point of marketing, well duh? Can you, yourself, doubt it? If that's a rhetorical question, so much for the perception PCGS is superior. PCGS is superior in one aspect, marketing. That's it. Get a grip on it.

 

The grip is that no matter what one thinks about who is drinking which koolaid, using Oreville's example is not a good one for the anti-koolaid crowd.

 

There should be plenty of good examples of koolaid-drinking, so why choose Oreville's bad example?

 

EVP

[MJ]

Take some stuff out of context, let others not bother to get full information, and watch accusations of "koolaid", "marketing", etc go flying.

Can anybody doubt marketing influences perceptions? Can anybody doubt that's the whole point of marketing, well duh? Can you, yourself, doubt it? If that's a rhetorical question, so much for the perception PCGS is superior. PCGS is superior in one aspect, marketing. That's it. Get a grip on it.

 

No question that PCGS has a superior marketing vehicle. No question that PCGS coins generally sell for more then NGC coins. No question that PCGS/CAC coins generally sell for more then NGC/CAC coins. No question that NGC coins that are not stickered are the weakest link. Perception is reality. My best guess it that it remains this way for many moons and the divergence even gets wider.

 

MJ

[CSdot]

 

I am now 60 plus years old and am doing everything I can to protect my loved ones in case I kick the bucket!

 

Keep in mind that caring about what other collectors think about my collection (as well as what I think about my collection) hopefully makes my collection more salable when my wife and daughter needs to sell my collection someday.

 

 

Given this perspective, I can see now it is not merely caring what others think (what has been called the "kool aide" factor), but more importantly about Oreville's trying to do right by his wife and heirs. That is honorable, so I retract my earlier comment.

 

 

[bochiman]

Take some stuff out of context, let others not bother to get full information, and watch accusations of "koolaid", "marketing", etc go flying.

Can anybody doubt marketing influences perceptions? Can anybody doubt that's the whole point of marketing, well duh? Can you, yourself, doubt it? If that's a rhetorical question, so much for the perception PCGS is superior. PCGS is superior in one aspect, marketing. That's it. Get a grip on it.

 

The grip is that no matter what one thinks about who is drinking which koolaid, using Oreville's example is not a good one for the anti-koolaid crowd.

 

There should be plenty of good examples of koolaid-drinking, so why choose Oreville's bad example?

 

EVP

 

Thank you for typing what I was going to type, EVP.

Trolling and taking things out of context, as was done with the clip from my original post, is the problem with what is going on in this thread.

[johnny9434]

as long as i like the coin then cac has nothing to do with it. jmo & fwiw.

[e1cnr]

It is a waste of money buying a coin and that let CAC decide for you -

 

 

skip that step and just buy CAC for your collection

[MarkFeld]

It is a waste of money buying a coin and that let CAC decide for you -

 

 

skip that step and just buy CAC for your collection

 

He already indicated that for various reasons, he likes/enjoys some non CAC coins.

 

And at the time he bought the coins, it might not have been a waste of money, at all. Coins can change, over time. And so can people's preferences, as well as knowledge of and appreciation for them.

[Hard Times]

I am that collector who sold the 1916-D dime in NGC MS-67FB at Heritage in 2009.

 

Then I reviewed with JA personally what he felt about my unstickered slabs. i decided to sell most of them but kept some of them including one lovely NGC one that would not sticker because of a gouge but is otherwise severely undergraded.

 

 

How does one go about getting a personal evaluation from JA for the coins that do not pass? All I get back is Passed/Not Passed, nothing more.

 

Best, HT

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I am that collector who sold the 1916-D dime in NGC MS-67FB at Heritage in 2009.

 

Then I reviewed with JA personally what he felt about my unstickered slabs. i decided to sell most of them but kept some of them including one lovely NGC one that would not sticker because of a gouge but is otherwise severely undergraded.

 

 

How does one go about getting a personal evaluation from JA for the coins that do not pass? All I get back is Passed/Not Passed, nothing more.

 

Best, HT

 

1-800-ask-john

If that fails, I know a guy that knows a guy that knows a guy.....

[BillJones]

I find it disturbing that one person has so much influence over the coin grading market, no matter how good he is.

 

We are all human and subject to making mistakes, and yet seems as if every opinion that CAC has on the assigned grade of a coin is the final word. I think that there is something fundamentally wrong with that.

[jpcienkus]

Take some stuff out of context, let others not bother to get full information, and watch accusations of "koolaid", "marketing", etc go flying.

Can anybody doubt marketing influences perceptions? Can anybody doubt that's the whole point of marketing, well duh? Can you, yourself, doubt it? If that's a rhetorical question, so much for the perception PCGS is superior. PCGS is superior in one aspect, marketing. That's it. Get a grip on it.

 

No question that PCGS has a superior marketing vehicle. No question that PCGS coins generally sell for more then NGC coins. No question that PCGS/CAC coins generally sell for more then NGC/CAC coins. No question that NGC coins that are not stickered are the weakest link. Perception is reality. My best guess it that it remains this way for many moons and the divergence even gets wider.

 

MJ

 

Can you expand on the bolded and underlined comment? I'd like to understand it better. Thanks.

[MarkFeld]

I find it disturbing that one person has so much influence over the coin grading market, no matter how good he is.

 

We are all human and subject to making mistakes, and yet seems as if every opinion that CAC has on the assigned grade of a coin is the final word. I think that there is something fundamentally wrong with that.

 

You make it sound widespread. Yet, I know of very few people, if any at all, who believe that CAC is the final word.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I find it disturbing that one person has so much influence over the coin grading market, no matter how good he is.

 

We are all human and subject to making mistakes, and yet seems as if every opinion that CAC has on the assigned grade of a coin is the final word. I think that there is something fundamentally wrong with that.

 

So do I.

 

But it is a free country.

 

I think there is also something fundamentally wrong with assuming an opinion should make or break a person's view and interest in the hobby, simply by placing so much emphasis on the investment/profit side.

 

A person only has influence over others, when the others let that person have influence. Usually it is because they are not confident of their own abilities, or have not taken the time to develop the needed abilities.

 

But what do I know. Nobody ever (ever) listens to me.

[EVillageProwler]

I find it disturbing that one person has so much influence over the coin grading market, no matter how good he is.

 

We are all human and subject to making mistakes, and yet seems as if every opinion that CAC has on the assigned grade of a coin is the final word. I think that there is something fundamentally wrong with that.

 

I find it disturbing that you're picking on Oreville, a collector, for soliciting the opinion of a mainstream dealer who has vastly more knowledge and expertise than Oreville.

 

Don't think of this as CAC. Just think of it as some really sharp dealer, like Akers or any other dealer you respect. Then, think of it as Oreville taking notes on tiny post-it slips and sticking them on his "approved" coins so he'd not have to go on memory.

 

Oreville did nothing wrong, but you painted a picture of him like he's some un-thinking noob. That's really unfair to him.

 

I would argue that you've been drinking too much anti-CAC/JA/label koolaid.

 

EVP

[Kenneth F]

Why do we care what this man does with his collection? Or what he likes/dislikes..

 

"All of my unopened GSA silver dollar mailing boxes" --- That is what got my attention.. wondering what is inside of those "unopened" GSA boxes.

[BillJones]

I find it disturbing that one person has so much influence over the coin grading market, no matter how good he is.

 

We are all human and subject to making mistakes, and yet seems as if every opinion that CAC has on the assigned grade of a coin is the final word. I think that there is something fundamentally wrong with that.

 

You make it sound widespread. Yet, I know of very few people, if any at all, who believe that CAC is the final word.

 

If you are on the PCGS registry that is all you hear. PCGS and CAC, and everything else is a pile of excrement.

[MJ]

Take some stuff out of context, let others not bother to get full information, and watch accusations of "koolaid", "marketing", etc go flying.

Can anybody doubt marketing influences perceptions? Can anybody doubt that's the whole point of marketing, well duh? Can you, yourself, doubt it? If that's a rhetorical question, so much for the perception PCGS is superior. PCGS is superior in one aspect, marketing. That's it. Get a grip on it.

 

No question that PCGS has a superior marketing vehicle. No question that PCGS coins generally sell for more then NGC coins. No question that PCGS/CAC coins generally sell for more then NGC/CAC coins. No question that NGC coins that are not stickered are the weakest link. Perception is reality. My best guess it that it remains this way for many moons and the divergence even gets wider.

 

MJ

 

Can you expand on the bolded and underlined comment? I'd like to understand it better. Thanks.

 

Sure. PCGS has the better brand whether completely justified or not. That is the perception. The market likes their product more. A lot of it has to do with the way the brand is marketed. Whether it's right or wrong you can't fight City Hall. At this moment in time PCGS is clearly #1. NGC is #2, but a distant number 2 in my opinion. More important the opinion of prices realized is the ultimate judge and jury. The numbers are very telling on PCGS vs NGC. Lack of a sticker makes it even more compelling. One needs to do their own due diligence reading the market.

 

For US Coins I rarely hear of anyone trying to cross PCGS coins into NGC holders at the same grade. Why is that? To do so would be financial suicide or pure stubbornness IMO. Food for thought. Zero to do with Kool-Aid.

 

I've spent my whole career building brands as a designer and my observations are purely based on my experiences in that regard and as a collector and someone who will sell into a market one day.

 

MJ