Letting CAC decide what stays your collection ?? hm

[BillJones]

One of the members ATS posted that he had wanted a 1916-D Mercury dime for a long time. He had wanted one for so long that he even put it on his "bucket list." Then he acquired an example in an NGC MS-67 holder. He held this piece for a number of years and then sent it to CAC which refused to endorse it. He sold this piece (at a modest profit) as well as every other coin in his collection that did not get a CAC sticker, and all of his NGC graded coins, including those with the CAC endorsement.

 

Recently he found a 1916-D Mercury dime in a Good - 4 holder that he viewed as really nice for the grade. He sent it off to CAC where it received a gold bean, which made him very happy.

 

I just scratched my head over this entire line of reasoning. Would you let an approval service have that much influence over which coins you put in your collection? I sure as heck won't. The most valuable coin in my collection, a 1796 quarter eagle, does not have a CAC sticker and I doubt that it would get one because the coin might be an MS-60 or 61 instead of an MS-62, which is grade on the holder. I didn't care when I bought the piece because I was buying the coin based on what I thought it was worth, not necessarily the assigned grade. It sold for MS-61 money so I bought it.

 

I don't know about you, but if I had once owned a scarce coin in MS-67, even if it was slightly over graded, I'd be bummed if I was now down to owning one in Good. The only reason that I would have for owning one in that grade after having owned a Gem Unc. would be if my personal finances had gone down the tubes, and I just had to have one.

 

What do you guys think?

 

[jom]

Did this poster say specifically he sold the coin because it had not got the bean? Or is that just speculation?

 

Whatever the case, maybe one might think if you have a coin that does not meet CAC standards it is better to sell it now and get what can for it. It is possible the market will simply disappear for NGC graded coins (who knows?) and he'd be "stuck" with a PCGS graded MS66 16-D dime (oh...the horror!) assuming he'd have to re-grade it? Maybe that's the thinking there.

 

As to why one would then go and buy a G4 is beyond me. Maybe they are putting a circ set together?

 

As to letting CAC dictate my collection: No way. I've got several coins I sent in myself they passed on that aren't going anywhere for the time being. I like them too much.

 

jom

[Walkerfan]

Absolutely crazy reasoning for sure.

 

I'd much rather have the MS 67! Even if it was 'only' a MS 66 that is STILL a GREAT coin to have vs. the GOOD 4!!

 

I think that most of my unstickered coins would sticker but, even if some wouldn't---that would NEVER cause me to sell them or 'like' them any less just b/c of the sticker endorsement or lack thereof.

 

Again---that's CRAZY IMHO.

[Hard Times]

 

As to letting CAC dictate my collection: No way. I've got several coins I sent in myself they passed on that aren't going anywhere for the time being. I like them too much.

 

jom

 

+1

 

 

Best, HT

[BillJones]

Did this poster say specifically he sold the coin because it had not got the bean? Or is that just speculation?

 

 

That impression that I got from the post was that anything that didn't get a sticker in a PCGS holder was out door along with anything in an NGC holder, regardless of if it passed the CAC muster or not.

[Hard Times]

I believe in JA and want him to decide for me what should be in my collection.

 

Before anyone gets too upset -

 

Best, HT

[bsshog40]

Did this poster say specifically he sold the coin because it had not got the bean? Or is that just speculation?

 

 

That impression that I got from the post was that anything that didn't get a sticker in a PCGS holder was out door along with anything in an NGC holder, regardless of if it passed the CAC muster or not.

Sounds to me like a person that is collecting slabs and not coins!

[Walkerfan]

A steady diet of Kool-Aid and green beans are all that some people will consume.

 

All the better for me.

[TonerGuy]

That takes the "All-Time Kool-Aid Award."

 

There's something special about raw coins in an album that I could never give up...

[mkman123]

wow, some strong kool aid for that person! Oh well, I will enjoy my coins with or without a cac sticker and regardless of the slab.

[BillJones]

Now that ATS is up and running again, the poster has responded.

 

He said that he had JA personally review all of coins, and that the ones that flunked had putty or PVC or were "C" coins. He sold all of the NGC coins because he believes that the market for them is in decline.

 

On that count I hope that he is wrong.

[Raisethis2]

Somewhere there's a guy with an NGC graded 1916 D Mercury Dime in MS 67 that appreciates the coin, not necessarily the holder. Good call.

 

 

[bsshog40]

Even if someone believes that the NGC market is down, it doesn't change the quality of coins that reside in their slabs. It wouldn't bother me a bit for them to pass up some nice coins. Leaves more for us that prefer the coin over the slab.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Even if someone believes that the NGC market is down, it doesn't change the quality of coins that reside in their slabs. It wouldn't bother me a bit for them to pass up some nice coins. Leaves more for us that prefer the coin over the slab.

 

Logic is a wonderful thing.

[CaptHenway]

Plastic and beans more important than coins?

 

Madness!

[mkman123]

billjones, were is this thread ATS? I can't find it

[Catbert]

I see your point, Bill and agree. Can't see trading a 67 for a 4 or to let CAC decide for me what I collect.

 

However, at this level, there are some market realities that shouldn't be ignored. That coin has a huge value difference at certain grade levels and I bet the CAC sticker provides some insurance to a potential buyer.

 

Per Coin Facts, PCGS Price Guide is:

 

65FB = $45,000

66FB = $60,000

67FB = $170,000 (pop 7 in PCGS, NGC pop 2)

 

Last NGC 67FB at Heritage sold for $97,750 (old Fatty with no sticker) in 2009.

PCGS 67FB at Heritage sold for $152,000 in 2013 and $207,000 in 2010 (different coins, both have the sticker).

 

So, if he sold it at a small profit to avoid losing his shirt later as the CAC sticker has almost become expected in this rarified air, I'd understand his decision.

[A.Phillips]

Plastic and beans more important than coins?

 

Madness!

 

(Gerald Butler voice) Madness? This is Sparta! [Kicks the messenger down the well]

 

 

[Catbert]

billjones, were is this thread ATS? I can't find it

 

Scroll down to Orville's posts

[MarkFeld]

One of the members ATS posted that he had wanted a 1916-D Mercury dime for a long time. He had wanted one for so long that he even put it on his "bucket list." Then he acquired an example in an NGC MS-67 holder. He held this piece for a number of years and then sent it to CAC which refused to endorse it. He sold this piece (at a modest profit) as well as every other coin in his collection that did not get a CAC sticker, and all of his NGC graded coins, including those with the CAC endorsement.

 

Recently he found a 1916-D Mercury dime in a Good - 4 holder that he viewed as really nice for the grade. He sent it off to CAC where it received a gold bean, which made him very happy.

 

I just scratched my head over this entire line of reasoning. Would you let an approval service have that much influence over which coins you put in your collection? I sure as heck won't. The most valuable coin in my collection, a 1796 quarter eagle, does not have a CAC sticker and I doubt that it would get one because the coin might be an MS-60 or 61 instead of an MS-62, which is grade on the holder. I didn't care when I bought the piece because I was buying the coin based on what I thought it was worth, not necessarily the assigned grade. It sold for MS-61 money so I bought it.

 

I don't know about you, but if I had once owned a scarce coin in MS-67, even if it was slightly over graded, I'd be bummed if I was now down to owning one in Good. The only reason that I would have for owning one in that grade after having owned a Gem Unc. would be if my personal finances had gone down the tubes, and I just had to have one.

 

What do you guys think?

 

For the sake of accuracy, the poster wrote:

 

"... While that coin did NOT sticker the vast majority of my other coin purchases over the years did so I did not view it as a mistake. Just something I did because it was a coin I genuinely liked and had fun with it. However, I did make in decision in late 2008 to sell everything I owned that did not sticker, especially if it was in a NGC slab. With very few exceptions, I kept to that decision..."

 

So, 1) apparently, in the end, he did not sell every other coin in his collection that did not sticker. There were a few exceptions; 2) since the vast majority of his coin purchases stickered, the number that failed to sticker and which he subsequently sold had to be very small in terms of percentages (and probably in number).

 

That doesn't sound like a big deal to me. It would, however, strike me as significant, if the collector ended up selling coins that he previously loved, for no reason other than that they failed to sticker. Being made aware of a problem he didn't know about before, would not count.

[A.Phillips]

As for me, I will not let the CAC and price guide to affect on my collection. If all of my Morgans are dropping in value, I still will keep it and continue buying the coins because all coins (non-cleaned) are beautiful to me.

[Tradedollarnut]

Sorry, but a six figure 'C' coin in an NGC holder is financial suicide when there are significant numbers of others at that level and under. There are plenty of great coins in NGC holders - buy one of those. He made a wise choice.

[mkman123]

Orville should post what JA said about the coin.....was their something that he didn't like about the 16d in 67fb?

 

Also billjones, thanks for the link, I had missed that thread.

[mumu]

Seems to me that the "replacement" of the ms67 merc with a G4 was merely coincidence and he was just making a wise investment choice having rightfully determined the 4 to be undergraded.

[Kurtdog]

A steady diet of Kool-Aid and green beans are all that some people will consume.

It all starts with the marketing. They get you to swallow it, you'll never go back and question it, because it will just show what a big fool you've been. So you end up reinforcing the marketing and helping them market it to unsuspecting fools just like you were.

[jom]

After reading Orville's post it all makes sense to me. As I guessed, his concerns was NGC's reputation and it seems that was the case...especially since the coin didn't CAC. It also seems to me the guy probably would have sold the dime even if it had been CAC'd as it looked as if he was getting out of it anyway.

 

The G4 just seemed to be a "fun" pick up. I mean, why not? It wasn't as if he was replacing the 67 with the G4 or anything.

 

As to his selling just NGC CAC coins. I didn't really read that in his post as, like I said above, he was just getting out of some material.

 

However the market does seem to favor PCGS CAC over NGC CAC. I think that is stupid but that seems to be the way things are.

 

jom

[bsshog40]

I really don't take a whole lot to heart when people ats knock ngc. It's the best way to keep Don happy and still be in the kool-aid click.

[Kurtdog]

Marketing is anti-intellectual. That's its appeal. Watch any marketing on TV, tell me they're appealing to one's intellect. The same holds over there. It's just their "everything-PCGS" marketing. There's no sense to it. You want to win friends and influence people, there, "everythin-PCGS," that's what goes, that's the formula.

[oreville-migration]

I am that collector who sold the 1916-D dime in NGC MS-67FB at Heritage in 2009.

 

The point of my post ATS was to explain that i had enjoyed the coin as well as many others for many years and there were more i needed to purchase including the 1942 plastic and zinc plated

steel one cent patterns which are mostly in NGC slabs.

 

That meant that I needed to prune my collection as I had well over 1000 slabbed coins and i needed a systematic way to prune such holdings.

 

After I had my entire collection reviewed by JA, about 6% or so did not sticker.

 

Some of them were puttied or had PVC. The gold coins mostly survived a dip to remove either whether they were PCGS or NGC. Some of them had been originally graded by JA himself!

 

But the putty or PVC were fortunately quite minor and did not affect the coin's grade.

 

The others were mostly "C" graded slabs and with many duplicates (for example i owned 25 different 1972 DDO cents from MS-64RD to MS-67RD, most of them in 65 or 66 RD grades).

 

The four that did not sticker I decided to sell including a PCGS MS-67RD one and three NGC ones in 65 and 66 grades.

 

Then I reviewed with JA personally what he felt about my unstickered slabs. i decided to sell most of them but kept some of them including one lovely NGC one that would not sticker because of a gouge but is otherwise severely undergraded.

 

Bottom line, whether PCGS or NGC, if it is not stickered reduces my desire to keep it unless there is a compelling reason to keep it!

 

 

[CSdot]

I see your point. He even states later in the thread that he kept two older Black NGC coins that didn't sticker. In other words, he's collecting plastic, and cares maybe a little too much what other collectors think about his choices.