How to Build a World Class Collection

[physics-fan3.14]

I was just reading an interesting article by Doug Winter, about how to build a world class coin collection, and I thought it may be an interesting topic to discuss. You can find the article here.

 

A few questions that came to mind:

 

1.) Is your goal to build a world class collection? Should it be? For those of us with average incomes, how do we do that?

 

2.) What do you think of the advice he gives?

 

3.) How have you approached building your collection? Are you trying to build a legacy, or a world class collection, or are you just having fun?

 

4.) How does your approach to building your collection affect the future value of your collection?

[Walkerfan]

I've read this article before----GREAT read.

 

1.) I am trying to build the BEST set I can within my means and using the knowledge I've gained to my advantage.

 

2.) The advice is all good. The only thing that I think I disagree with or that I think are 'lesser' points are: a.) cultivating a trusted source and b.) building a library. I have found that a good coin can come from ANYWHERE and I have NEVER gotten coins from just one dealer or even repeat purchases from one dealer---unless you want to include Heritage. I trust myself above all else. Having ONE or TWO good books is advantageous but you don't need a whole library IMHO. Learning hands on by attending shows and chatting with dealers and colleagues is MUCH more important. View as many coins as you can and KNOW your series.

 

3.) I buy the keys first and I am having fun building the best set that I can.

 

4.) I feel that my set building strategy enhances the future value.

[bsshog40]

Very good article!

 

#1 - Mine will never be a world class collection. I would like it to be but with average incomes it can only be as good as you are financially capable.

 

#2 - The 10 suggestions I think were great but not all are feasible for all collectors. Some people

don't have access to a choice of dealers or even fellow collectors to deal with on a regular

basis.

 

#3 - My collection is mostly for fun. I love the hobby. I love it when I get a good deal on

something, find something different and interesting, or just collecting something

that makes me smile when I look at it.

 

#4 - I have some collections that will probably lose money in the future and hopefully some that

will gain. At this point, it doesn't concern me as much as it does having that feeling of

fulfillment when completing a collection.

 

[BillJones]

I know that I do not have a world class collection because of the total number registry points I have. I have just over 790,000 points, and there are a couple of collectors who have over 1.5 million points. Given that, there is no way that my collection could be called "world class." With that number points, those two collectors could take every category on the registry if they wanted to do it.

[World Colonial]

I saw this article and have a different interpretation of it altogether. I do not see that what Doug Winter actually wrote really has much to do with building a world class collection at all.

 

It is really about 1) How to make money or maximize profit upon resale. or 2) How to build a consensus 'conditional rarity" set or something like it.

 

#2, this is what I believe most US collectors have in mind when they think of "world class". From the perspective of US coins, I believe there are many sets which could be considered "world class" because most of the coins are available in enough quantity and in high quality. For many world coins and some US coins, a collection can actually be world class without meeting many of the attributes he describes.

 

The link below is to one of the Rudman Mexico pillar 4R registry sets. This collector is #3 in total points and he is the only collector to my knowledge who has ever acquired every single date for this denomination. However, most of his coins are likely not "high quality" under Winter's definition which presumably precludes it from achieving "world class" status. I consider it one, regardless that is has a disproportionate number of "details" coins because given this collector's probable resources, its both apparent that a much better one is not possible and I do not see that anyone could claim that it isn't significant either.

 

http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetListing.aspx?PeopleSetID=147465

 

To provide specifics on why I disagree with him, look at his first criteria, finding value. This has little to do with building a world class collection and everything to do with making money. Yes, I know most have limited budgets but I do not see that the actually trivial numismatic differences in quality he is describing really have much to do with it at all.

 

In my opinion, most US collections today considered world class are only in the narrow sense of an individual series. I consider this type of collection much less significant than many which are much broader even where the coins are in a lower or much lower quality.

[brg5658]

It seems Doug Winter recycles a lot of material in his posts on CoinWeek.

 

His thread here and his other thread are both very similar to the current thread in question.

 

I agree with worldcolonial's points above.

 

[TonerGuy]

I think its an interesting article... not ground shaking but solid advice. I think this is the most important aspect to his advice though...

 

5. Learn How to Sell.

 

From time to time, you will need to purge your collection. You might have a duplicate that you want to sell or you might have generic Saints that are in a profit position. Learn how to sell them and how to maximize what you have to sell.

 

Not everyone wants to sell coins the same way. Some collectors want to micro-manage their sales and decide to conduct the process by themselves. Other collectors want limited involvement and decide to put their duplicates in auction. I like the option of using your trusted dealer (see #4 above) as a selling source.

 

Coin collecting is a two-way market. People spend lots of time learning how to buy coins but seldom learn the selling aspects. The best collectors that I’ve met understand both and have had positive selling experiences.

 

For dealers this is easy. For collectors this is almost impossible to learn. And once you can learn to sell and what will sell for a premium then you can start to understand what a world class collection is. You might think you have some special coins in your collection but if no one in the world will pay the prices you paid for the same coins then you probably dont.

 

You may lose one or two nice coins that you will try to get back later but at least you will then know that you are on the right track. If your dups keep selling for 50% of what you paid well then you know you might want to change your requirements and focus of your set.

[World Colonial]

To answer the original questions:

 

1.) Is your goal to build a world class collection? Not as defined by this article or most collectors of US coins. Should it be? Depends upon what interests you. For those of us with average incomes, how do we do that? You aren't going to be able to do it except in the narrow sense defined by this article and most US collectors.

2.) What do you think of the advice he gives? See my prior post.

 

3.) How have you approached building your collection? Are you trying to build a legacy, or a world class collection, or are you just having fun?

 

I selected my series based upon those with a tie to my past (South Africa, Bolivia and Spain) and those which interest me (Spanish colonial pillars and quarter real, 1790 Austrian Netherlands Insurrection). Within these series, I try to buy the "best" coins I can find when I can find them. Given their current cost, I am over stretched right now and probably would be better off reducing its scope, but I am not going to sell anything I own now that I actually like.

 

The only "world class" set that I am actually trying to complete is Peru pillar 1/2 and one real, but I doubt I will ever do so because I am dubious that I will ever actually find the coins.

 

On the fun aspect, I still like my coins but actually enjoyed it a lot more when they cost much less. I dislike that I can buy less for the same money and the increased risk goes along with the higher prices, especially since many of the coins I would like to buy I know will not grade or are borderline and I cannot inspect them in person prior to purchase. There are coins that I have declined to bid on for this reason.

 

On the coins that I have not already sold, even though some of them are worth more or a lot more, because I will never be able to buy enough of them at favorable prices, the only thing the price increases have done is annoy me by making them less affordable now than they were in the past.

 

4.) How does your approach to building your collection affect the future value of your collection?

 

I will ocassionally buy a coin I like even if I know it is a money loser. But generally, it's a factor in how much I will pay or whether to buy it at all.

[BillJones]

In my opinion, most US collections today considered world class are only in the narrow sense of an individual series. I consider this type of collection much less significant than many which are much broader even where the coins are in a lower or much lower quality.

 

I agree with assessments concerning value and quality. I like nice higher end collector grade coins, but that's not where the action is these days. To me there is huge over emphasis on "ultra grade" coins in states of preservation from MS-66 and above and an under emphasis on history and rarity.

 

Recently there was an article in "COINage" about whether or not the 1804 Silver Dollar is still "The King." The author, Tom DeLorey concluded that it is not "The King" any longer. Other less rare coins in high grades now bring more money. The case in point is the 1794 dollar. Yes, it has a wonderful history since it was the first silver U.S. coin that was issued for general circulation from the first Philadelphia mint. It is also the first U.S. issued silver dollar. Still with an estimated surviving population of 135 pieces or so, it is hardly a great rarity. Still it is graded SP-66, although I wonder about the "Specimen" grade because the piece has adjustment marks. Still it is said to the finest it brings a strong price.

 

Years ago I was surprised when I saw some of the top early large cent collections. By in large they were not like the Dan Holms collection, which contained many high grade pieces. For the most part they were made of collector grade coins in the VG to VF-EF range. Yet these collections were among the best because they were close to complete with respect to their Sheldon die varieties. In that respect they were at least close to "world class" to date only seven or eight collectors have ever completed the Sheldon die variety set.

 

 

[World Colonial]

I think collectors in the US tend to think of high grade coins or sets as "world class" because its the only realistic shot any number of consequence have at completing something that is supposed to be significant given the exorbitant prices so many US coins sell for today. I think they are badly over rated as are the irrelevant pedigrees that go with them which most collectors have never even heard of.

 

A coin like the 1794 dollar whether SP-66 or otherwise, is it significant? Yes, very. Is it over hyped and over rated? Yes, badly. There are many US coins that by my standards are more significant regardless that they are in lower grades and less prominent and under any impartial analysis, at least 10 if not somewhat more that still exceed it and by this I mean specifically the SP-66, not a lower grade one.

 

World class should not just be measured by grade or eye appeal and price, but by how scarce and significant a coin is in all aspects. If the only or most significant thing about a coin or a set is its grade or its value, then there is either little or even nothing significant at all and its not really "world class" either.

 

In a prior thread here, I had the audacity to question the significance of most coins in the "PCGS Million Dollar" club and one or a few took exception to it. The fact of the matter is that in the past, many of these coins were considered much less "significant" when they sold for much less. This is obvious from the reduced marketing hype in prior auction listings.

 

There are many significant or very significant coins in the US series broadly defined. But there aren't nearly as many as someone who does not actually know what these coins actually are might believe based upon the cheer leading which so many use to exaggerate their actual merits.

[Tradedollarnut]

With all due respect, just because the classic rarities sold for less decades ago did not make them less significant. You seem to be missing appreciation for coins that matter - which is fine - collect what you want. But don't on over a century of American numismatics

[World Colonial]

I didn't say that all of ttem didn't matter. I am saying that there are a disproportionate number of US coins whose merits are overrated or exaggerated and even though yes, there are no absolutes, I can reasonably demonstrate it based upon relative merit. Because the US series has such an extensive number of issues and a wide variety, there are many rarities but it is illogical to claim that all of them are significant just because of it. Many of them are and many of them actually are not either because they actually aren't that rare or because they are obscure.

 

I am not going to claim that I am familiar with the specifics of every US rarity because I am not. However, I know many of them and have a general idea of what these coins actually are which many collectors do not.

 

I presume that one of the reasons you took exception to my comments is because I singled out your coin and have commented on it on a few prior occassions. You are free to pay whatever you want for any coin you want and I can express my opinion that it isn't what many others claim it to be. I believe your coin is very significant and said so but obviously not as significant as you do. What is such a big deal about that?

 

My opinions are not based just upon the price but yes, the price is one of the proxies for how a coin is viewed collectively. I'm not trying to "hijack" this thread but if you or anyone want to discuss the specifics of any coin, I can give you many examples.

[Tradedollarnut]

Yes, I take exception when a coin I own is called badly overhyped and overrated - wouldn't you? Especially a coin that has been revered since the 1940s and based upon research is more than likely the very first dollar struck for the fledgeling United States.

 

Special US coins tend to sell for more than foreign pieces - is that the point you are making?

[Conder101]

In that respect they were at least close to "world class" to date only seven or eight collectors have ever completed the Sheldon die variety set.

Closer to 14 or 15 now. But Robbie Brown is still the only person to do it twice. And there is one collector who is within 11 varieties of matching Holmes feat of having all the Sheldon numbered varieties and all the NC's (Except 93 NC-5, still unique and in the ANS collection.)

[World Colonial]

No, not really because I do not care what anyone else thinks about the coins I collect. I shouldn't have made any reference to your coin at all and in the future, I will not. It was a mistake. I will still comment on the 1794 dollar generically though if it suits my purposes.

 

On your question, making a comparison between US and foreign prices wasn't the point of my comments specifically here, though yes I have done so in the past. I was trying to make a general point that the types of claims I see all the time for many US coins and sets would never be made anywhere else. And by anywhere, I mean it literally.

 

This thread was originally about "world class" sets and the fact of the matter is that a disproportionate number of collectors who think in these terms both here and on the PCGS forum, collectors outside the United States would never describe local equivalents in this manner. This was the basis of my initial over rated claim and I just got sidetracked on the post to which you replied.

 

Anyway, sorry to have offended you and have a merry Christmas.

[Tradedollarnut]

I agree with Doug with perhaps one huge exception - his first point. If one's goal is to buy and hold as many coins as possible on limited funds, then learning to recognize value *is* very important. However, one will likely not build a world class collection that way

 

World class collections are most often built by seizing opportunities and ignoring value at the right time. When there are one or two examples of a coin for a set in an acceptable grade, do you really want to quibble over 10% and have the coin go elsewhere?

 

Trust me, I know world class. Value is not how they are built.

 

http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetGallery.aspx?PeopleSetID=160531

[BillJones]

Yes, I take exception when a coin I own is called badly overhyped and overrated - wouldn't you? Especially a coin that has been revered since the 1940s and based upon research is more than likely the very first dollar struck for the fledgeling United States.

 

Special US coins tend to sell for more than foreign pieces - is that the point you are making?

 

I am on a much lower level than you, TDN, but I have significant coins in my collection that experts have poo-pooed. When I bought an 1854-D Three Gold piece from Legend Numismatics, a well-known expert in the field of southern gold, not knowing that I had purchased the piece, stated that Laura had overstated the merits of the coin.

 

It didn't bother me. I enjoy owning the piece very much, and believe that Laura and CAC got it right. As a former dealer I know that different experts and collectors can have differing opinions. A coin that is roundly rejected by expert can be praised by another. It's part of the game, and sometimes it's part of the marketing and sales game. If you study your field as best you can and consider the advice of others, quite often your conclusions have as much merit as many of the critics.

 

[World Colonial]

Sometimes if you want to build a world class set (however you want to define it), you will need to go find coins that are not even available for sale.

 

In my first post here, I referenced Rudman's set of pillar 4R. Since I have never seen any or at least most of these coins for sale, I suspect that he must have bought many of them by private treaty. though some may have been publicly and I just missed them or they were acquired before I resumed collecting in 1998.

 

From the value standpoint, I consider it unlikely that the seller is going to part with them absent a very strong offer and by strong, possibly one which may make it uneconomical "investment" wise. They have a coin which they know many want and there are either few or even none others available. If you want it, you are going to have to "pay up" or you are not going to get it.

[Tradedollarnut]

Sometimes if you want to build a world class set (however you want to define it), you will need to go find coins that are not even available for sale.

 

In my first post here, I referenced Rudman's set of pillar 4R. Since I have never seen any or at least most of these coins for sale, I suspect that he must have bought many of them by private treaty. though some may have been publicly and I just missed them or they were acquired before I resumed collecting in 1998.

 

From the value standpoint, I consider it unlikely that the seller is going to part with them absent a very strong offer and by strong, possibly one which may make it uneconomical "investment" wise. They have a coin which they know many want and there are either few or even none others available. If you want it, you are going to have to "pay up" or you are not going to get it.

 

Exactly. Well said

[Catbert]

From my vantage point as a small time, small collection hobbyist, I do not find the term "world class" very meaningful. "World class" implies a collection build upon competition with others. I collect for my enjoyment and, while I do like to share my passion with others, I've never felt that I was trying to one up someone else. And yes, I'm a registry participant, but I don't do so for points or rankings.

 

That said, it doesn't mean I can't appreciate the efforts and selectivity of other fine collections! For example, I was really excited to see the half cent Missouri collection recently. Such beautiful specimens!

 

 

[delta]

Have just gone through that Doug Winters article, and saw a few issues that can be argued. First of all,my preference would have been Museum Quality rather than "World Class" and by Museum Quality meaning things people love to see, such as TradeDollarNuts absolutely magnificent display of early dollars. Thanks for the link TDN!

 

Under his point one, DW makes a logical error in saying certain coins are undervalued, and will always remain undervalued because they're in series to never become popular. If so they're not truly undervalued.

 

In point four, DW recommends cultivating a trusted source, as if a single source will suffice. Anyone with a serious numismatic focus should probably try to cultivate as many sources as possible, a diversity of sources.

 

And in point ten DW argues we shouldn't take it so seriously. I'd agree if he said we shouldn't take ourselves so very seriously, it's better to be lighthearted and be able to laugh at ourselves. But dedicated numismatists must be poised to take very serious and quick action as DW himself pointed out elsewhere in that essay. Furthermore, a Museum Quality collection such as TDNs is not a frivolous matter, it has extremely compelling historical significance, saying it shouldn't be taken seriously is a clueless comment.

[World Colonial]

[

Under his point one, DW makes a logical error in saying certain coins are undervalued, and will always remain undervalued because they're in series to never become popular. If so they're not truly undervalued.

 

In my opinion, the term "undervalued" has multiple usages. I have used the opposite ("overvalued") many times without always being clear because I did not provide the correct context.

 

For example, in my prior posts on this thread, I was attempting to make the general point (and not very successfully) that many US coins have prices which are not consistent with their numismatic merits when compared to other coins. This is subject to debate of course but I don't think it is that hard to demonstrate at all. This is the context that I believe DW was using with the term "undervalued' and using this assumption, I think he is correct.

 

However, when it comes to their financial merits and financial value proposition as an "investment", I don't think that is true nearly as often and I have not said it very often either.

 

Even though I disagree with the relative prices of many US coins and especially those between the US and elsewhere, I think I have a pretty good idea why the difference exists. And because I do, from this standpoint, they make "sense". This is part of what I was explaining in that other thread covering moderns. US coins are more expensive than world coins because of circumstances unique to this market and within US coinage, you and DW are correct that the "undervalued' coins he mentioned are almost certainly going to underperform financially.

 

Lastly, I also agree with you that there is a difference between world class and museum quality. TDN's set is certainly worthy of a museum exhibit. The Rudman pillar 4R set I used as an example, I still consider it world class because its something I don't believe anyone else has done before and its almost impossible to do but many or most probably do not consider it museum quality. The sets which most here or on the PCGS forum have in mind as their goal I describe as aspirational. Certainly worth doing if that is what you want but two different things entirely.

[delta]

When I replied yesterday I hadn't yet looked at the Rudman 4 reales Mexican collection, linked above by WC (thanks!) but now that I have, I think it might truly be Museum Quality, depending of course on information available to specialists in that series (incidentally why does the title specify1732-1746 but the collection goes up to 1747?), and also which museum, probably a Mexican or Spanish museum would be more interested in obtaining it for display.

 

And on reflecting overnight about the situation around that Doug Winters article, I now think his focus and terminology were inappropriate. Hardly anybody can aspire (WC's word) to a genuine World Class collection, and the publication of that piece in CoinWeek with the implication that almost anyone can make such a collection, as long as they heed the 10 step guidelines of DW, is wildly ridiculous.

 

Perhaps DW should have instead tried to address the CoinWeek audience by suggesting a more realistic Exhibition Quality collection and not pie-in-the-sky World Class. Almost anyone with modest resources plus perseverance, research and creativity can eventually assemble a collection worth exhibiting, to be displayed maybe at a coin show where a place for exhibits is provided. Probably Museum Quality is also too lofty an aspiration to propose for the readers of CoinWeek.

 

If you're reading CoinWeek for advice on how to build a collection, you're not someone who is working up to a real World Class collection. The World Class level collectors such as TDN don't need that advice from Doug Winter, they could write better articles on the subject than he just did.

[World Colonial]

To answer your question, the pillar registry sets are segmented by monarch. There is one each for Phillip V, Ferdinand VI and Charles III. The title of the set is incorrect as it does actually end in 1747. The Rudman collection includes every single date in this denomination and if my recollection is correct, every date in all denominations except for the 1772 8R of which only two are known, one in a private collection and one in the Casa De moneda (I believe). He also has practically every die variety included in Gilboy's reference, including many duplicates.

 

On your last comments, I agree with you. I attribute the disconnect you described to a few things. First, I believe someone like Doug Winter is so used to dealing in the upper end of US numismatics or one level below it that he potentially just lost context with the circumstances of the average or typical collector. I do not consider this unusual at all, In another Coin Week article, the author quoted some dealer as hoping "that budget-minded collectors building sets of Trade Dollars are willing and able 'to stretch' and buy 'an original, problem-free 1878-CC,' even one in Good-04 grade, for somewhat more than $500.”

 

My collection is better than most but not in the same league as many on this forum. I am able to buy most any one coin (like 99%) in my series, just not all of them at once. I choose not to do so out of financial prudence. I have only spent more than $1000 a few times, more than $500 maybe two dozen times and most of my coins cost less than $200. The actual "budget collector" is not in the market for $500 coins and most others like me who can afford this example aren't going to buy it either.

 

Personally, I find that my standards have changed over time where I have become so used to seeing many of the best coins (online mostly) that it takes a lot to get me excited now. Coins that I used to consider a big deal in the past, most of them are not any longer, even within my series. I suppose its a form of cynicism.

 

There are a few coins that I have come to appreciate a lot more but they are not those favored by most others. My #1 "US" coin is the 1861 CSA original half dollar. Others that I think are a big deal are the 1792 Getz Washington half in silver and the 1818 New Spain (Texas) Jola 1/2 real. The latter I think is absurdly cheap compared to traditional US coinage if I actually know it correctly.

 

For others, it will vary. The typical non-collector may be impressed with anything from what no longer circulates to museum quality, but they are not going to think that much about the majority of #1 registry sets which so many long time US collectors consider such a big deal. The non-US collector isn't going to either.

 

Its only going to be those who are familiar with the US numismatic culture who will "get it" at all. To give you the idea of what I think is a typical non-collector attitude, on one occasion I showed a former teacher of mine and her husband some of my coins and Gilboy's reference book. Her literal response? "You need to get a life".

[Catbert]

Her literal response? "You need to get a life".

 

- don't we all?

 

This is a great hobby though even if she can't/won't appreciate it!

[World Colonial]

Her literal response? "You need to get a life".

 

- don't we all?

 

This is a great hobby though even if she can't/won't appreciate it!

 

Yes, I know what you mean but I do not believe most non-collectors "get it" and I do not see that they ever will either. In this instance, she was actually not referring to my coins but to the Gilboy reference. It's a real work of research and not particularly light reading. I have not read all of it but enjoyed the parts that I did.