Well this is certainly a new one....(eBay)

[Paul S]

Um, ok?

[Red Llama]

This honestly spells of BS

[MarkFeld]

Alcatraz closed in 1963, so the premise of slabs in official evidence bags seems quite far fetched.

[HULLCOINS-migration]

That's not the only one... http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-40-SLABBED-COINS-INSIDE-SEALED-WILD-JACKS-CASINO-PROPERTY-BAG-/380743387449?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item58a6130939

[PerryHall]

Alcatraz closed in 1963, so the premise of slabs in official evidence bags seems quite far fetched.

 

What? You've never heard of a time machine? Agree that it's fake especially since it appears to be filled with low value coins in third world slabs.

[CaptHenway]

Not to mention that bar codes weren't invented yet in 1963......

[wheat'swheats]

Not to mention that bar codes weren't invented yet in 1963......

As I think were heat sealers for plastic bags.

[brg5658]

I'm sad to admit this seller is from Minnesota. These slabs are a "home-grown" variety -- by a self-slabber in the Twin Cities area that has been selling this garbage on eBay for years. The slabs say "International Numismatic Bureau" on a lime green label, an absolute joke.

 

The implication that this bag of coins was in Alcatraz evidence storage is so far fetched and ridiculous that I hope he gets what he deserves -- which is zero bids.

 

[WoodenJefferson]

Bogus BogusBogus

[johnny9434]

yeah and not so great feedback. bogus is right on here

[WoodenJefferson]

~Here's~ where you buy the bags.

[$ilverHawk]

I'm sad to admit this seller is from Minnesota. These slabs are a "home-grown" variety -- by a self-slabber in the Twin Cities area that has been selling this garbage on eBay for years. The slabs say "International Numismatic Bureau" on a lime green label, an absolute joke.

 

The implication that this bag of coins was in Alcatraz evidence storage is so far fetched and ridiculous that I hope he gets what he deserves -- which is zero bids.

 

 

Scammers always use half way plausible story lines to set up their sting. Unfortunately, looking at the sellers stats tells me that this seller is very good at scamming uninformed buyers. Can't believe there isn't more negative feedback.

 

I don't care for eBay, their rules, hypocrisy, etc., but there really is nothing that can be done about buyers willing to roll the dice on a grab bag of coins that they know nothing about.

 

I do think eBay has the responsibility to police their market place and remove obvious rip off artists.

 

Carl

[okbustchaser]

So where is the "scam"? He's selling exactly what he says he is...a personal property/evidence bag from Alcatraz--I don't know if you still can, but you used to be able to buy as many of these souvenirs as you wished during the tour--which isfilled with slabbed coins. He doesn't claim anywhere that the coins were the personal property of anyone incarcerated there.

 

Is he looking for someone who doesn't bother to think even a little bit about what he is purchasing? Yes, probably...but that responsiblity belongs on the shoulders of the buyer not the seller.

[DWLange]

Looking at the seller's other listings, there seem to be a lot of mystery rolls that have some desirable piece as the end coin. It's a little far-fetched to believe that he isn't aware of the contents, but that is how the lots are presented.

[MarkFeld]

So where is the "scam"? He's selling exactly what he says he is...a personal property/evidence bag from Alcatraz--I don't know if you still can, but you used to be able to buy as many of these souvenirs as you wished during the tour--which isfilled with slabbed coins. He doesn't claim anywhere that the coins were the personal property of anyone incarcerated there.

 

Is he looking for someone who doesn't bother to think even a little bit about what he is purchasing? Yes, probably...but that responsiblity belongs on the shoulders of the buyer not the seller.

 

How do you know he's selling a "personal property/evidence bag from Alcatraz"? Even you seem to be intimating that it might be a souvenir personal property/evidence bag from Alcatraz.

 

Either way, do you think he's trying to deceive bidders, or not?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

So where is the "scam"? He's selling exactly what he says he is...a personal property/evidence bag from Alcatraz--I don't know if you still can, but you used to be able to buy as many of these souvenirs as you wished during the tour--which isfilled with slabbed coins. He doesn't claim anywhere that the coins were the personal property of anyone incarcerated there.

 

Is he looking for someone who doesn't bother to think even a little bit about what he is purchasing? Yes, probably...but that responsiblity belongs on the shoulders of the buyer not the seller.

 

Good Afternoon.

 

Without any discourtesy intended, I call Baloney on the last statement.

 

Integrity and Responsibility is not a weight only for the shoulders of the buyer. To deceive thru verbal manipulation, mental finesse, and visual presentation, with an intent to do so and for profit, is wrong, and can't be excused by a buyer beware caveat. To accept that it can be excused simply perpetuates the practice.

 

That is exactly the point of replies, even though unstated.

[WoodenJefferson]

Also, seen on AMAZON as well.

[tenacious]

So where is the "scam"? He's selling exactly what he says he is...a personal property/evidence bag from Alcatraz--I don't know if you still can, but you used to be able to buy as many of these souvenirs as you wished during the tour--which isfilled with slabbed coins. He doesn't claim anywhere that the coins were the personal property of anyone incarcerated there.

 

Is he looking for someone who doesn't bother to think even a little bit about what he is purchasing? Yes, probably...but that responsiblity belongs on the shoulders of the buyer not the seller.

 

Good Afternoon.

 

Without any discourtesy intended, I call Baloney on the last statement.

 

Integrity and Responsibility is not a weight only for the shoulders of the buyer. To deceive thru verbal manipulation, mental finesse, and visual presentation, with an intent to do so and for profit, is wrong, and can't be excused by a buyer beware caveat. To accept that it can be excused simply perpetuates the practice.

 

Well said and thanks for saying so. I'm so tired and annoyed at people who use Caveat Emptor as an excuse to rip people off. Basically they're saying that if a seller can fool a buyer that's the buyer's fault.

 

I also call baloney on that.

[okbustchaser]

So where is the "scam"? He's selling exactly what he says he is...a personal property/evidence bag from Alcatraz--I don't know if you still can, but you used to be able to buy as many of these souvenirs as you wished during the tour--which isfilled with slabbed coins. He doesn't claim anywhere that the coins were the personal property of anyone incarcerated there.

 

Is he looking for someone who doesn't bother to think even a little bit about what he is purchasing? Yes, probably...but that responsiblity belongs on the shoulders of the buyer not the seller.

 

How do you know he's selling a "personal property/evidence bag from Alcatraz"? Even you seem to be intimating that it might be a souvenir personal property/evidence bag from Alcatraz.

 

Either way, do you think he's trying to deceive bidders, or not?

 

My position is that whatever story he may tell makes no difference. If buyers are not willing to dedicate AT THE VERY LEAST the thought that would be necessary to figure out the age of the package in this story then tough nougies for them. It is the buyers responsibility to determine what something is worth to him. If he overvalues it compared to market then so be it.

 

I want to stress that I do not do business this way. After all the years we've corresponded on the different forums I hope you know this. But, it is--and always will be--a fact that I feel very little if any sympathy to people who refuse to do at least a modicum of research on a hobby--by definition something one should be willing to spend a little time as well as money on.

 

 

[okbustchaser]

Good Afternoon.

 

Without any discourtesy intended, I call Baloney on the last statement.

 

Integrity and Responsibility is not a weight only for the shoulders of the buyer. To deceive thru verbal manipulation, mental finesse, and visual presentation, with an intent to do so and for profit, is wrong, and can't be excused by a buyer beware caveat. To accept that it can be excused simply perpetuates the practice.

 

That is exactly the point of replies, even though unstated.

 

Have you ever watched a TV commercial for beer? or soap? or cars? Verbal manipulation, mental finesse, and visual presentation with an intent to profit is the art of selling in America. Is the advertising exec for the Proctor and Gamble account guilty of being a scam artist?

 

It is MY responsiblity to cut through the baloney and decide whether or not I want to buy Budweiser rather than another brand. It is also that Ebay buyer's responsibility to decide whether or not he wants to buy a bag full of coins about which he knows nothing.

[MarkFeld]

So where is the "scam"? He's selling exactly what he says he is...a personal property/evidence bag from Alcatraz--I don't know if you still can, but you used to be able to buy as many of these souvenirs as you wished during the tour--which isfilled with slabbed coins. He doesn't claim anywhere that the coins were the personal property of anyone incarcerated there.

 

Is he looking for someone who doesn't bother to think even a little bit about what he is purchasing? Yes, probably...but that responsiblity belongs on the shoulders of the buyer not the seller.

 

How do you know he's selling a "personal property/evidence bag from Alcatraz"? Even you seem to be intimating that it might be a souvenir personal property/evidence bag from Alcatraz.

 

Either way, do you think he's trying to deceive bidders, or not?

 

My position is that whatever story he may tell makes no difference. If buyers are not willing to dedicate AT THE VERY LEAST the thought that would be necessary to figure out the age of the package in this story then tough nougies for them. It is the buyers responsibility to determine what something is worth to him. If he overvalues it compared to market then so be it.

 

I want to stress that I do not do business this way. After all the years we've corresponded on the different forums I hope you know this. But, it is--and always will be--a fact that I feel very little if any sympathy to people who refuse to do at least a modicum of research on a hobby--by definition something one should be willing to spend a little time as well as money on.

 

 

I realize that you wouldn't do business that way. And though we disagree, I will give you points for your consistent stance on such iussues, which I have seen you post over the years. And for always being a gentleman about it.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Good Afternoon.

 

Without any discourtesy intended, I call Baloney on the last statement.

 

Integrity and Responsibility is not a weight only for the shoulders of the buyer. To deceive thru verbal manipulation, mental finesse, and visual presentation, with an intent to do so and for profit, is wrong, and can't be excused by a buyer beware caveat. To accept that it can be excused simply perpetuates the practice.

 

That is exactly the point of replies, even though unstated.

 

Have you ever watched a TV commercial for beer? or soap? or cars? Verbal manipulation, mental finesse, and visual presentation with an intent to profit is the art of selling in America. Is the advertising exec for the Proctor and Gamble account guilty of being a scam artist?

 

It is MY responsiblity to cut through the baloney and decide whether or not I want to buy Budweiser rather than another brand. It is also that Ebay buyer's responsibility to decide whether or not he wants to buy a bag full of coins about which he knows nothing.

 

I appreciate your position and your thoughts.

 

However, this is a straw man position.

 

There is a vast difference in the issue being discussed, and corporate national advertising.

 

First, corporate advertising must comply with various State and Federal regulations, and are held to a Standard and accountability that far exceeds EBay requirements.

 

They are also punished for the step to far. They also risk civil liability.

 

Second, these same corporate advertisers that you present as an example in support of your thoughts, vigorously monitor each other concerning their claims of the best of the best of the best, and it is a deterrent to avoid over the top blarney, and a good one. This same level of effective monitoring does not occur on EBay, regardless of the various deterrents that EBay has.

 

Third, the buyer on EBay is lulled into a sense of comfort, thru return policies, payment withhold policies, etc. But (there is always a "but"), the fact is, EBay uses the caveat argument, as you have, in defense of the buyer. This is acceptance of deceit and as I stated, continues to perpetuate the practice.

 

While you, personally, do not act in the manner you suggest is acceptable, I would ask you why don't you, if it is acceptable? I am not touting a holier than thou position. I am arguing from a numismatic position that we all should strive to achieve, for the betterment of the hobby. It is no secret that our hobby has grown by leaps and bounds as an investment tool, and many of us are caught up in the stock market atmosphere. This allows our sense of integrity to diminish, and accept the caveat argument more and more.

 

Fine, it is a way of life. Let the other guy do his homework. If he/she suffers, so be it. Do you think the persons that get caught in this type of scam, whether it is because they believed in the integrity of EBay (the more likely reason), or because of inexperience, will continue in the hobby, and/or pursue numismatic activities? I doubt it. That hurts all of us.

 

I do not consider your position as selfish, self serving, or detrimental. You are entitled to a position, the same as I.

 

If I am in a foxhole, and there is a soldier in it with me that does not have the level of experience that I may have, do I help him, or instruct him to get his own hard knocks experience? The problem I would encounter is that he would not be inclined to watch the other side of the foxhole in defense of my well being, if that was my attitude.

[Buffalo Head]

Oh boy!! I sure got my BIG laugh for the day!! AWESOME!!!!

[CaptHenway]

The seller is guilty of fraud, whether it is illegal fraud or not.

[$ilverHawk]

So where is the "scam"? He's selling exactly what he says he is...a personal property/evidence bag from Alcatraz--I don't know if you still can, but you used to be able to buy as many of these souvenirs as you wished during the tour--which isfilled with slabbed coins. He doesn't claim anywhere that the coins were the personal property of anyone incarcerated there.

 

Is he looking for someone who doesn't bother to think even a little bit about what he is purchasing? Yes, probably...but that responsiblity belongs on the shoulders of the buyer not the seller.

 

The seller, by clever use of photographs, coupled with a "story" builds an image of his product that is not true. The seller, by his description of the offered product, invites the naive buyer to make assumptions about the value of his product. Seller is building confidence in his product through half truths and deception, seller is preying on greed and naivete. That is a scam, con game, take it as you will.

 

I will not argue that the buyer has full responsibility for an uniformed purchase, but I question why you do not see that sellers of this ilk are a problem for the numismatic community and why this seller is not scamming buyers.

 

Carl

[WoodenJefferson]

I wonder if the Department of Justice is concerned about their logo being

Photoshopped onto a postcard, then recreated to look like an official document?

 

[Coinbuf]

Its interesting that two posters to this thread took a 180% stance in a recent thread about this same subject. The reality is that both parties may be wrong depending on their motives, the logical assumption is the seller may be trying to rip off a sucker buyer; however some buyers may be trying for a rip of their own. Often times the ones that get hurt are the elderly some of whom are easily misled for many reasons.

[MarkFeld]

Its interesting that two posters to this thread took a 180% stance in a recent thread about this same subject. The reality is that both parties may be wrong depending on their motives, the logical assumption is the seller may be trying to rip off a sucker buyer; however some buyers may be trying for a rip of their own. Often times the ones that get hurt are the elderly some of whom are easily misled for many reasons.

 

How are the bidders trying to rip anyone off? This isn't the same situation as when, for example, a coin is listed/described by the seller as a 1923 Peace Dollar but the image shows a much more valuable 1928.

[Coinbuf]

Its interesting that two posters to this thread took a 180% stance in a recent thread about this same subject. The reality is that both parties may be wrong depending on their motives, the logical assumption is the seller may be trying to rip off a sucker buyer; however some buyers may be trying for a rip of their own. Often times the ones that get hurt are the elderly some of whom are easily misled for many reasons.

 

How are the bidders trying to rip anyone off? This isn't the same situation as when, for example, a coin is listed/described by the seller as a 1923 Peace Dollar but the image shows a much more valuable 1928.

 

Mark I would assume that you have been around long enough on this and other forums to have seen the term rip and understand it's meaning in this context. However to clarify for you; it's possible that one or more of the bidders is hoping to find an 09 SVDB(or substitute what ever valuable coin you like) in that sack thus scoring what is often refered to as a rip. Like I said its impossible to say for sure as we dont know the parties involved or their motives for bidding/selling. But that is a possible senario for why someone might bid on this type of auction, imo a longshot but dreamers are out there.

[MarkFeld]

Its interesting that two posters to this thread took a 180% stance in a recent thread about this same subject. The reality is that both parties may be wrong depending on their motives, the logical assumption is the seller may be trying to rip off a sucker buyer; however some buyers may be trying for a rip of their own. Often times the ones that get hurt are the elderly some of whom are easily misled for many reasons.

 

How are the bidders trying to rip anyone off? This isn't the same situation as when, for example, a coin is listed/described by the seller as a 1923 Peace Dollar but the image shows a much more valuable 1928.

 

Mark I would assume that you have been around long enough on this and other forums to have seen the term rip and understand it's meaning in this context. However to clarify for you; it's possible that one or more of the bidders is hoping to find an 09 SVDB(or substitute what ever valuable coin you like) in that sack thus scoring what is often refered to as a rip. Like I said its impossible to say for sure as we dont know the parties involved or their motives for bidding/selling. But that is a possible senario for why someone might bid on this type of auction, imo a longshot but dreamers are out there.

 

Sure, it's possible. But I think a lot less so than that the seller is trying to do the ripping.