1917 Type 1 Liberty Standing Quarter ... need opinions before return time ends

[wdrob]

 

 

Could I get some opinions on this coin so I can decide if this needs to be returned. I don't think it has any problems and is really a nice original coin in hand. The knee and the shield have as close to no wear as you can get. The breast looks as if it has never been touched.

 

It does have some good luster under that toning but it is not overwhelming jump out and hit you in the face luster. The obverse has a greater amount of luster than the reverse but that may just be that the reverse has a a greater amount of toning without breaks like the obverse does.

 

Anyway, please offer up opinions if you could.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

[Coindude]

Looks Hi AU Full Head to me. The luster looks muted but that's probably the toning as you state.

[yonico]

The breast looks as if it has never been touched.

 

 

 

no but seriously, i would guess AU58. maybe FH? can't tell from the pic.

 

[wdrob]

 

no but seriously, i would guess AU58. maybe FH? can't tell from the pic.

 

Yes that did sound funny but I figured what the heck and left it like that.

 

 

Both of you had said AU and I have to ask what makes you believe it to be AU and not MS? Is it because of the toning?

 

I could always just give it a quick dip and it would look exactly like those MS64 MS65's ..... I wanted an original and non cleaned high quality coin here and all the wear points to look for are showing no wear. I only see 1 miniscule scratch on the left wing of the eagle but it is not even noticeable without a loupe.

 

I may not be seeing something and if that is the case I will send it back. It was sold as a "CH/BU Original (Full Head)" and that to me meant MS not AU so please let me know what you see.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe I can make the pictures bigger.

 

Try this link

 

 

Or we will try this one

 

 

 

 

I think if you click on those links you will be taken to the Google page with the picture that you can Zoom In with. I hope it works.

 

 

 

[yonico]

 

no but seriously, i would guess AU58. maybe FH? can't tell from the pic.

 

Yes that did sound funny but I figured what the heck and left it like that.

 

 

Both of you had said AU and I have to ask what makes you believe it to be AU and not MS? Is it because of the toning?

 

I could always just give it a quick dip and it would look exactly like those MS64 MS65's ..... I wanted an original and non cleaned high quality coin here and all the wear points to look for are showing no wear. I only see 1 miniscule scratch on the left wing of the eagle but it is not even noticeable without a loupe.

 

I may not be seeing something and if that is the case I will send it back. It was sold as a "CH/BU Original (Full Head)" and that to me meant MS not AU so please let me know what you see.

 

Thanks

 

you said yourself "The knee and the shield have as close to no wear as you can get". it needs to have no wear AT ALL to be mint state.

 

the shield does have a light rub, so does the knee and the reverse has some wear on the high points

 

still a very nice coin and seem to be problem-free.

 

how is the luster?

[Coindude]

Looks to me to have a light rub on the obverse at the Head, Shield, Breast and Skirt Lines. The reverse, seems to me that there is light rub on the Leading edge of the Wing, Head, beak and Drumstick. Also the luster just doesn't tell me that it's BU.

[wdrob]

Ok.

 

I don't think I will take a chance on this one then and will just send it back.

 

I have bought two or three other items from this seller and the others have been spot on with the description matching. Maybe this one will just fall short.

 

btw; I believe that even a MS coin can have 'rubs' from album friction and such but I think there is another thread debating what is MS vs UNC. I will leave it at that thread.

 

thanks again for the help.

 

 

[Coinbuf]

I am no expert on the series but that coin just has an AU slider look to it.

[wdrob]

Most of that comes from my poor picture taking equipment and I have trouble actually capturing what I am seeing.

 

All of these are the same coin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As you can see it is really hit and miss with me and taking pictures of coins with this instant camera. It has a mind of it's own.

[ldhair]

From the first images, I'm at AU-58. Some of the later images make me think it's about 63.

[wdrob]

I just looked at a coin on another forum members web site that is also a 1917 Type 1 and on the coin I speak of it does not even have the vertical grill lines in the shield, the eagles feet do not have the feathers, and the breast looks like a 'A' cup instead of the nice 'C' cup you see on this one.

 

They graded that one MS66 with a CAC Sticker so maybe there is hope for me after all.

 

That debris on the reverse is exactly that; debris.

 

I am not going to voice my thoughts on what I think it should grade. I will only end up jinxing myself. But I am going to go ahead with the submission along with a couple of Gold Eagles I have been putting off.

 

Thanks for your opinion Larry.

 

Bill

 

 

[Mark T]

Looks like an Au 58 FH .

 

Here is an MS 65 with similar toning for comparison. Luster on my coin is strong .

[L1ncolnF4n]

That's a cherry AU from what I've seen.

[BillJones]

The coin is a high end, original surface, About Uncirculated piece. If you are paying MS-63 or higher money, you should return it. Otherwise it is worth up to MS-60 money. Some collectors would rather have a coin like this in AU, and an unattractive MS-60. Hence the higher price for less than Mint State coin.

[johnny9434]

au58 but it wouldnt surprise me if it got a ms 62 ( as long as the breast get left alone ) jmo

[wdrob]

Looks like an Au 58 FH .

 

Here is an MS 65 with similar toning for comparison. Luster on my coin is strong .

 

 

Thanks for uploading that for comparison. I think I must be down playing the amount of luster that the piece has and your photo gave me more confidence that I did the right thing and sent it in. And if it comes back as a AU piece, as many have said, then based on the pictures here I would have to say that it is one extremely strong AU coin then.

 

 

Only time will tell I guess.

 

Thanks.

 

[Mark T]

Please don't forget to let us know the result when you get the grade.

[wdrob]

 

Absolutely. I always do even when I am let down. (thumbs u

[Raybo55]

I actually like the looks of the coin, the toning is great in my book!

Here is my '17 that came back in a BB from NGC.

 

[coinman_23885]

The first image makes it look as if there is friction on the breast, knee, her head, and the highest point of her shield. There also looks to be friction on the eagles left wing (the right most part thereof). This could just be the images though and the discoloration could just be toning that makes it look like a rub. The determining factor is if there is any doubt to see it in hand to see if the luster is disturbed. I would probably call the coin AU55 FH shot AU58 FH (I know that the TPGs didn't designated AU samples as FH at one point, but I think that has changed - hopefully someone can answer that for you).

[wdrob]

I actually like the looks of the coin, the toning is great in my book!

Here is my '17 that came back in a BB from NGC.

 

Thanks for observation and opinion.

 

Sorry to hear that it came back BB'd. I guess they said Improperly Cleaned. I have been there. You feel that you have just submitted the next Top-Pop to end all Top Pop's ... Only later to have your dreams crushed!

 

Not to mention the amount of anger one has at the fool that thought they would 'clean and pretty' that coin right up prior to selling and essentially ruining an otherwise perfect coin.

 

I just can not seem to capture the actual essence of the coins luster or tone. I did down play the luster in the initial post as well as make a bad comment that was misconstrued by some to mean that it actually had wear. I guess that 'countrified talk' was taken literal.

 

 

The first image makes it look as if there is friction on the breast, knee, her head, and the highest point of her shield. There also looks to be friction on the eagles left wing (the right most part thereof). This could just be the images though and the discoloration could just be toning that makes it look like a rub.

 

Yes my pictures were not that great and although in the first series of pics I posted left allot to be desired I have already sent it off to be graded so I don't have a second chance to get better photos. However, I have went through what I did take and picked out a few that may dispel the theory that the shield has a rub, the breast has a rub, or that the leading edge of the wing is any different than some 64's, 65's, and yes even 67's.

 

The following pictures are with a fill flash of the obverse and the next without. The one without the fill flash gives a much better feel for the luster and tone. The coin does have full cartwheel luster. Like I had said previously the reverse, less so since it is completely toned over and the toning is not as pretty as the obverse, yet it is not ugly in hand either.

 

With Fill Flash

 

 

Without Fill Flash and Closer to Actual Coins Tone Appearance

 

 

 

Now the coin reverse. I only took a couple of pics of the reverse and never did adjust settings such as fill flash, etc. Also I have a stray piece of something on the upper right side that is not on the coin.

 

The Reverse

 

 

And Even Closer Reverse

 

 

 

 

Now a good bit of opinions mention the leading edge of the Eagles Right (Our Left) Wing. However the highest point, according to Bowers, is the arch that has the slit, and the belly of the bird. Now compare to these following examples that demonstrate how the strike varies widely and that even a MS67 FH graded birds wing looks virtually identical to my example yet it did not cause the coin to be a AU coin.

 

An MS67 FH Reverse

 

 

And Another MS65 FH Reverse Wing

 

 

 

What amazes me is that the MS65 FH example not only has a leading edge that would lead one to believe that it is a Worn Wing it also seems to be lacking the feather details on the belly as well. Maybe it is bad photography but usually the Auction Houses do a good job of taking pictures in order to sell the coins. I take bad pictures and get lucky every now and then with a good picture.

 

Will it be a Almost Uncirculated coin as most seem to think. Maybe. I would not rule that out at all. Matter of fact, I feel like I am playing the lottery every time I send something into be graded. All I can do is learn from you folks here, read the books, look at existing examples, and then make my purchase judgments based on that.

 

In the words of Howard Hughes before the US Senate testimony "Senator; That was my money that I lost. My Money! I lose money and I will continue to lose money. That's just what I do."

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark T]

Was this an Ebay Purchase ??

[wdrob]

Was this an Ebay Purchase ??

 

For Real??

 

What does that have to do with what I posted other than you wish to confirm what I paid for the item in which case I think you could have just come right out and said; How much did you pay for that coin?

 

Mark I purchased it from the Home Shopping Channel and I paid $563.96 for it.

 

Seriously though.... Is that why you asked that or for another reason?

 

 

 

[Mark T]

Yes for real – I am just curious where you got the coin. I could have just asked if you saw the coin in hand before you purchased it but from what I gather from this thread you did not. Ok how much did you pay ?

[wdrob]

Hahahaha!

 

I paid about 62 money as far as Realized Auction Prices go and I bought it off eBay from a seller I have had good success with his description meeting the grades.

 

I initially bought that 1926-D Peace Dollar from him and the pictures were showing a coin with no luster but I know that some sellers cover the high luster/reflective coins with some sort of plastic to minimize the glare. I took a chance on that Peace Dollar and it was labeled as CH/BU as well.

 

This is the pic I took a chance on with the 1926-D Peace Dollar so I knew he subdued the image and his description on this one was close.

 

 

 

 

If you will remember I asked about it and the general consensus was that it would be about a MS64 with a shot at 65. Some may have said MS63. Can't remember. Well NGC decided it was a MS63. No problem. It was a test to see how he graded in association with his pictures presented.

 

I figured that with this other coin listed here that if I came in close to the MS63 like I did on the Peace Dollar then I was in a good position.

 

I had bought numerous Paper Currency from him in the past as well so I had always been happy with his sells and what I received. He is also open to taking reasonable offers and I do that with him often.

 

So ...... No I did not see it in hand prior.

 

 

 

 

[Dudley the 1st]

I'd like to hear from the OP about how this piece was promoted, the suggested grade ? Personally, based on what I can determine from the photo's, I can't suggest a grade better than AU58 with no FH designation.

[wdrob]

I took a chance on that Peace Dollar and it was labeled as CH/BU as well.

 

It was right above your post.

 

 

And you might be right.

 

 

[e1cnr]

do you have a loupe? I would look at the shield, knee and wing closely.

 

standing liberty quarters are like walking liberty halves in that they are not always fully struck - leaving the impression of a lightly worn coin - especially when completely toned over.

[wdrob]

Excellent point.

 

Yes I did look at it very closely with a 2x, 5x, 7x, and then a 45x loupe based exactly on what you just described, and that I had read about that particular coin before purchase.

 

I think that is why some of those examples that I presented, that have a leading edge of the wing or the shield not as defined, yet received a high grade. They were just not a solid strike yet the luster and other factors that one considers when grading carried them to the grade received.

 

Now whether the one I submitted has all the right stuff just remains to be seen. I remember that the obverse had a very solid strike and the wing of the bird had more detail than the photos here actually portray. As I had said earlier, I had compared the strike of the coin I submitted to some of those examples that were weakly struck and in the end I think just a combination of the luster and general overall eye appeal helped me make the decision to just keep it.

 

Still like playing the lottery though with any coin I submit. The majority here that offered input in this thread felt as though it is a AU coin so I am prepared to face that if in fact the TPG also feels that way. I will be disappointed but I will be OK.

 

One thing I am certain of is that it is not a cleaned, whizzed, or polished coin that will receive a details holder so at least in that respect I am actually learning something around here.

 

 

[wdrob]

Please don't forget to let us know the result when you get the grade.

 

It is a day of mourning .... AU58

 

 

Oh well ..... There is always tomorrow.