What are the differences between "Mint State" and "Uncirculated?"

[RWB]

Many use the terms synonymously, but is that correct?

[MarkFeld]

To me, "uncirculated" indicates that a coin has not seen (actual) circulation. Whereas "mint state" is used for grading purposes, to denote a grade anywhere from MS60 through MS70.

 

A coin which has been circulated might not show (sufficient) evidence of such to penalize it on the grading scale, with a grade of less than MS60.

[Walkerfan]

Many use the terms synonymously, but is that correct?

 

Technically, a circulated coin can, sometimes, be graded as MS, so even though they SHOULD be synonymous, they are not always.

[BillJones]

"MS" has come to be a precision related term with the 11 Sheldon scale grading numbers while "Uncirculated" is now an old fashioned less precise term for coins that display Mint State details and surfaces. In the old days "Uncirculated" covered everything from MS-60 to 62, Choice Unc was 63 & 64, and Gem was 65 or better. Before that there was only Unc and Gem with Gem covering 64 and up, if the grading done properly.

[DaveG]

What BillJones said.

 

When I was a beginning collector, coins were called "uncirculated"; now the same coins are called "mint state."

[bsshog40]

I also think the uncirculated could be a circulated coin that is uncirculated condition. I would beleive that a mint state coin would be a coin that has not circulated. Of course even coins that are circulated but have uncirculated details are still considered MS by grading standards.

[Raisethis2]

I've discovered that on E-Bay (certainly the final authority on grading determinations) an un-slabbed coin is mostly referred to as uncirculated but if a coin is slabbed by a reputable grading company it's Mint State determination is suddenly prominent.

 

Personally, I agree with Bill Jones assessment of Unc, Choice Unc and Gem. And Mark Feld's assessment that Mint State normally clarifies the actual Mint State number.

 

 

[rmpsrpms]

Synonyms.

[RWB]

If a press operator at the mint handles a coin for inspection, leaves a nice fingerprint on it then tosses it back in the bin, and then, later, you buy a mint set containing the same coin, is it "mint state," "uncirculated," or ?

[DaveG]

I know that the folks ATS are going around and around on this issue and, of course, many collectors do, too.

 

All I can say is that a coin with a prominent fingerprint is probably one I wouldn't buy - regardless of what you call it!

[Walkerfan]

I know that the folks ATS are going around and around on this issue and, of course, many collectors do, too.

 

All I can say is that a coin with a prominent fingerprint is probably one I wouldn't buy - regardless of what you call it!

 

+1

[BillJones]

Big, ugly fingerprint = MS-60 + I have no interest in it unless it is rarer than the devil and I REALLY want it.

[PerryHall]

The terms Mint State and Uncirculated mean the same thing. The term Uncirculated with appropriate adjectives (select, choice, gem, etc) was mostly used before the use of numbers as part of the grade became popular.

[rmpsrpms]

Regarding fingerprints, all I can say is CURSES on those who open BU rolls and finger the coin surfaces. I suppose they think it's funny and get some sort of perverse pleasure from it. Maybe they've been dealing too long and have lost their respect for coins. I don't know how many rolls of Cents I've opened to find fingerprints on most every coin in the roll.

 

You know who you are. Shame and curses on you.

 

Edited to add...sorry for the rant, perhaps it was too harsh, but I just finished looking at an otherwise beautiful roll of 1955-s Cents that have prominent fingerprints on most every coin and it irked me...Ray

[RWB]

Every once in a while we all need a good irk, rant and curse....

 

It seems to me that "uncirculated" is a good, solid descriptive word, while "mint state" presumes a considerable prior-knowledge of the process of minting. In Dr. Sheldon's usage, mint state is the coin as it left the dies - which could be anything from 'perfect' to weakly struck, off-center or even blank. Thus, all numerical values from 60 to 70 represent levels of damage or surface degradation that occur before a coin was first placed in circulation. Note: that does not exclude abrasion during counting, inspection or other in-house operations.

 

[Kurtdog]

I look at them the same. They both mean, no evidence of circulation wear.

[WoodenJefferson]

Semantics...

[PerryHall]

Semantics...

Yup. All uncirculated means is that the coin didn't enter the channels of commerce where it would be subjected to wear.

[Conder101]

And it is impossible to look at a coin that has no trace or wear and be able to say whether it ever entered the channels of circulation or not. So unless the coin is still in a SEALED page from the mint, or you are the person who actually removed such a no wear coin from circulation there is no way to know whether such a coin has ever circulated or not. That is why a coin pulled from circulation may still receive a MS grade.

[123cents]

I know that NGC and PCGS see the term UNC and MS as different..All problem coins that are uncirculated are listed as" UNC Details" with the problem listed and non problem coins are listed as "MS " whatever the grade might be.

[Kurtdog]

And it is impossible to look at a coin that has no trace or wear and be able to say whether it ever entered the channels of circulation or not. So unless the coin is still in a SEALED page from the mint, or you are the person who actually removed such a no wear coin from circulation there is no way to know whether such a coin has ever circulated or not. That is why a coin pulled from circulation may still receive a MS grade.

Exactly. Now we're getting someplace. When you start differentiating based on whether a coin was in fact in circulation, you take your eye off the coin. If there's one thing, above all others, graders have to get across, it's this: KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE FACE OF THE COIN. That's all that matters.

[RWB]

So...it is appearance, not "history" that applies?

[Kurtdog]

So...it is appearance, not "history" that applies?

It's condition. That's what a grade is.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

So...it is appearance, not "history" that applies?

 

That is a very good observation.

 

With a coin that the history can't be known with accuracy of its journey, the only option left is opinion.

 

A mint state coin may appear to be worthy of the designation of mint state, but without any proof, we are left to the well known method of guessing.

 

If a coin leaves the mint and ends up years later in the possession of a person that can't prove the history of the coin, the most that can be said about the coin is that it is uncirculated.

 

A more logical approach to grading for this problem would be to classify a coin as UNC 60-70, if the history can't be proved.

 

If the history can be proved, as an example because the coin is still in the original mint packaging, the logical approach would be to classify the coin as MS 60-70.

 

This will not happen, because there is not really any incentive to do so.

 

The state of numismatic marketing that now exists has somewhat meshed the 2 descriptions, based on TPG (or other sources)opinion/description/designation- the basis of which is appearance.

 

An OBW Roll -is it or isn't it? Was it wrapped at the Mint?

Was it delivered to the Bank and then wrapped?

Was it subcontract wrapped?

There are OBWs and there are OBWs......but we all know this.

[Kurtdog]

Observation? Duh. Condition is at the core of every hobby. That should be a no-brainer. When you start taking your mind's eye off the condition of the item, you're in trouble. You don't know what you're collecting. Let's just take this uncirculated vs. mint state business. I picked up the coin at the mint. Therefore, it's mint state. Oh, really? You're not going to cross-examine that testimony? You're just going to let it go at that? Why? Because you like me? Because I seem like a good sort? What if I emphatically add, I mean it, I mean it, I mean it, I mean it! Is that even better? Do you shell out mint state money, now? Do you see, John? Keep your eye on the face of the coin. That's what tells you what you have. That's the grade of the coin. The value of the coin? Who knows what lurks in the minds of the market? Let the market decide that.

[PerryHall]

Obviously a coin can be rescued from very brief circulation before there is any visible wear or loss of luster but it doesn't take much circulation before the coin begins to degrade. If a coin briefly circulates and it can't be ascertained by anyone examining it, the coin can be considered uncirculated from a practical point of view.

[RWB]

To help "confuse" things a little, consider this:

 

Most of the present uncirculated coins dated before 1947 entered collections from retail banks, stores and other places where coins circulated in commerce. Very few were purchased direct from any mint. In one sense, nearly all MS and BU coins were/are not in their original state as distributed by the mints. (All rolls, etc. were made up by the sub-Treasuries, FRBs, banks, counting houses, merchants, etc. from mint bags.)

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Observation? Duh. Condition is at the core of every hobby. That should be a no-brainer. When you start taking your mind's eye off the condition of the item, you're in trouble. You don't know what you're collecting. Let's just take this uncirculated vs. mint state business. I picked up the coin at the mint. Therefore, it's mint state. Oh, really? You're not going to cross-examine that testimony? You're just going to let it go at that? Why? Because you like me? Because I seem like a good sort? What if I emphatically add, I mean it, I mean it, I mean it, I mean it! Is that even better? Do you shell out mint state money, now? Do you see, John? Keep your eye on the face of the coin. That's what tells you what you have. That's the grade of the coin. The value of the coin? Who knows what lurks in the minds of the market? Let the market decide that.

 

Thank you for your courteous response.

 

We are not apart in thoughts, only the words used.

 

Your zeal may have caused you to read my Post a little to quickly, and by doing so did not allow you to think it thru.

 

Play on words (understood by Mr. RWB , I think) has been interpreted by you as the physical act of viewing a coin and commenting accordingly. Again, it may be helpful to you to review my Post.

 

The original question, as presented, is what the commentary by me is responding to. My Post is not an evaluation of Grade.

 

In closing, I really don't like anybody.

....and, I really, really don't like market grading.

 

PS: I will do my best to keep my eye on the face of the coin. I just have to practice more, I guess.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

To help "confuse" things a little, consider this:

 

Most of the present uncirculated coins dated before 1947 entered collections from retail banks, stores and other places where coins circulated in commerce. Very few were purchased direct from any mint. In one sense, nearly all MS and BU coins were/are not in their original state as distributed by the mints. (All rolls, etc. were made up by the sub-Treasuries, FRBs, banks, counting houses, merchants, etc. from mint bags.)

 

Someone understands I am not advocating rebellion by my Post.

[Kurtdog]

In closing, I really don't like anybody.

Yes, but since nobody likes me, I thought you'd make an exception for me.

 

PS: I will do my best to keep my eye on the face of the coin. I just have to practice more, I guess.

Actually, John, we already knew this. We just forgot it after thirty years of monkeying around with market grading.