Do coin collectors and dealers really want consistent grading?

[MarkFeld]

I often hear that many or most of them do.

 

On the other hand, some of the same people who supposedly want consistent grading, resubmit coins to the grading companies. And they do so in the hopes that the grading will be different, as in higher/inconsistent, resulting in a grade increase and a more "valuable" coin.

 

So what do they want - consistent grading or higher grades for THEIR coins? As much as they would like to, they can't have it both ways.

 

 

[123cents]

There will not be complete consistency in grading as long a human are involved. Even the top graders do not always agreed on the same grade for a coin. Then factor in (the same graders or different graders) seeing the coin again at a different time and date.

 

Collectors and dealers will always be looking for higher grades when there is money involved. With some coins just the next grade means a huge payday when it comes time to sell.

[Raisethis2]

I like to buy a lot of coins raw, submit them then sell them slabbed. If I come across an auction bargain in a slab I'll still buy it however.

 

I'm usually a harsh grader myself and am often surprised with coins grading higher than expected. I've only re-submitted 2 coins total in my collecting one from ANACS to NGC and it crossed the same grade and a Morgan dollar with great eye appeal in a shabby, scratched up slab which also got the same grade.

 

I think the services are pretty consistent with the more modern silver I collect mostly (Washington Quarters, Mercury Dimes etc). Some of the higher end type coins seem to leave more to interpretation.

 

I'd be interested to know if anyone has ever done a study with regard to what types of coins are best candidates for upgrade submission.

[physics-fan3.14]

I would like consistently accurate grading. Those who play the crackout/resubmit game are just taking advantage of the fact that grading is inconsistent. I can profit from something I don't necessarily agree with, even though that may not be the most ethical option.

[bsshog40]

Even though I don't submit, I think it would be nice if grading was consistent, but as Carl stated, no two people will see a coin the same way. I'm wondering if anyone will create a software program that can grade a coin?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I often hear that many or most of them do.

 

On the other hand, some of the same people who supposedly want consistent grading, resubmit coins to the grading companies. And they do so in the hopes that the grading will be different, as in higher/inconsistent, resulting in a grade increase and a more "valuable" coin.

 

So what do they want - consistent grading or higher grades for THEIR coins? As much as they would like to, they can't have it both ways.

 

 

Mr. Feld, First, Good Evening.

 

Without prefacing to much about respect for your involvement in the numismatic community, which I am sure you know you have from me, I have a question or 2 about the wording of the question(s).

 

1)Would it be helpful if the same rule book about grading standards is agreed to by all, and used to establish the criteria, in order to ascertain the consistency playing field?

 

2)Would it then be helpful to test all TPG Graders, or for that matter, anyone involved in the grading of the coin, when the purpose for the grading is selling to/assuring the Public? ( and would it be helpful to re-test every 6 months, and to be required to have continuing education-say when the coins are minted with a new date and/or design).

 

3)Would it be helpful to test the vision and color spectrum of all Graders involved in #2?

 

4)Would it then be helpful to issue a traceable type identification to the tested and passed Graders, that must be used on the coin's suitcase after the coin is graded? (or sold-and I admit this may be a little to much to ask).

 

That is it, for the moment; I reserve my Rights in Law and....you know the rest.

 

Respects,

John

 

[yonico]

Even though I don't submit, I think it would be nice if grading was consistent, but as Carl stated, no two people will see a coin the same way. I'm wondering if anyone will create a software program that can grade a coin?

 

are you being serious? or just joking?

 

last time someone tried that it turned out to be a disaster!!

 

remember COMPUGRADE?

[BillJones]

I want consistent grading. I'd like nothing better than to be able place a bid in an auction, using a picture, or order a coin from any dealer who offered a piece in a given grade from a given grading service, and know that I would stand a strong chance of getting a coin that met the criteria for the grade stated. Eye appeal and taste, of course, are other issues that no grading service resolve. Those factors would still make buying coins without seeing them in person less than a sure thing.

 

As for the crack-out thing, I can live without that. I've done it less than ten times, it was during the era when I was dealer.

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

What is the basis, the starting point, of consistency?

How is it defined?

Who determines the definition?

How is it confirmed?

 

I want consistent pancakes. I follow the instructions religiously that are on the Aunt Jemima Box (I like Aunt Jemima best).

 

I get consistent pancakes everyday.

 

One day, a friend visits and will have pancakes with me. He happens to be a recognized pancake Grader. He tastes the pancakes, and pronounces them awful. I explain how I make the pancakes, and he reviews the instructions on the box, and pronounces them as correct. He wants to see my measuring cup. I get it for him. He measures the water to the line the instructions declare is correct. I tell him it is not enough water. He looks at me strangely. After a few more water measures, it is discovered that I can't see worth a darn and did not know that, and had been measuring wrong. To make matters worse, he opens his Pancake Expert Evaluation Kit and uses his Expert measuring cup for the water, and then pours the measured water into my cup. Turns out that the measuring cup I bought at doofus emporium, because it was so cheap, is way off.

 

There is consistency that is accurate, and there is consistency that is not..........

 

While we all generally accept what the word consistency means, the fact is, our concept of consistency most likely is not what another person's is. So, what is the starting point?

 

With Respect, Of Course.

 

John Curlis

[bsshog40]

Even though I don't submit, I think it would be nice if grading was consistent, but as Carl stated, no two people will see a coin the same way. I'm wondering if anyone will create a software program that can grade a coin?

 

are you being serious? or just joking?

 

last time someone tried that it turned out to be a disaster!!

 

remember COMPUGRADE?

Actually I was. We've had computer technology for years that can read a persons eye retina, read fingerprints, determine dna etc.... Why couldn't it be done for coins? People complain that the tpgs get coins wrong or they get a grade verified by another company that just uses different people to look at the coin. There's no consistency with different eyes on the same coin. Why not a computer??

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Even though I don't submit, I think it would be nice if grading was consistent, but as Carl stated, no two people will see a coin the same way. I'm wondering if anyone will create a software program that can grade a coin?

 

are you being serious? or just joking?

 

last time someone tried that it turned out to be a disaster!!

 

remember COMPUGRADE?

Actually I was. We've had computer technology for years that can read a persons eye retina, read fingerprints, determine dna etc.... Why couldn't it be done for coins? People complain that the tpgs get coins wrong or they get a grade verified by another company that just uses different people to look at the coin. There's no consistency with different eyes on the same coin. Why not a computer??

 

What would be the consistency starting point for the computer program?

[okbustchaser]

What is the basis, the starting point, of consistency?

How is it defined?

Who determines the definition?

How is it confirmed?

 

I want consistent pancakes. I follow the instructions religiously that are on the Aunt Jemima Box (I like Aunt Jemima best).

 

I get consistent pancakes everyday.

 

One day, a friend visits and will have pancakes with me. He happens to be a recognized pancake Grader. He tastes the pancakes, and pronounces them awful. I explain how I make the pancakes, and he reviews the instructions on the box, and pronounces them as correct. He wants to see my measuring cup. I get it for him. He measures the water to the line the instructions declare is correct. I tell him it is not enough water. He looks at me strangely. After a few more water measures, it is discovered that I can't see worth a darn and did not know that, and had been measuring wrong. To make matters worse, he opens his Pancake Expert Evaluation Kit and uses his Expert measuring cup for the water, and then pours the measured water into my cup. Turns out that the measuring cup I bought at doofus emporium, because it was so cheap, is way off.

 

There is consistency that is accurate, and there is consistency that is not..........

 

While we all generally accept what the word consistency means, the fact is, our concept of consistency most likely is not what another person's is. So, what is the starting point?

 

With Respect, Of Course.

 

John Curlis

 

As long as your pancakes are consistant it makes no difference to me whatsoever if they match up with another expert's efforts. I can learn over time if your definition of great pancakes compares to anyone elses and therefore make an informed decision as to the prospective quality of your pancakes.

 

Same thing with coins. I don't care what company's name is on a slab as long as that company is fairly consistant with its own grading standards. If, for example, a coin is consistantly a 65 in a XYZ holder but consistantly a 64 in an ABCD holder (or for that matter consistantly a 68 in a WHOCARES slab) then it makes me no difference which holder it is in. I can still make an informed decision as to what the quality of the coin will be.

 

The key word here is consistancy. Yes, I as a collector want it. (Truth in posting info...I have never submitted a coin for grading the first time--let alone resubmitted one hoping for a higher grade. )

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

What is the basis, the starting point, of consistency?

How is it defined?

Who determines the definition?

How is it confirmed?

 

I want consistent pancakes. I follow the instructions religiously that are on the Aunt Jemima Box (I like Aunt Jemima best).

 

I get consistent pancakes everyday.

 

One day, a friend visits and will have pancakes with me. He happens to be a recognized pancake Grader. He tastes the pancakes, and pronounces them awful. I explain how I make the pancakes, and he reviews the instructions on the box, and pronounces them as correct. He wants to see my measuring cup. I get it for him. He measures the water to the line the instructions declare is correct. I tell him it is not enough water. He looks at me strangely. After a few more water measures, it is discovered that I can't see worth a darn and did not know that, and had been measuring wrong. To make matters worse, he opens his Pancake Expert Evaluation Kit and uses his Expert measuring cup for the water, and then pours the measured water into my cup. Turns out that the measuring cup I bought at doofus emporium, because it was so cheap, is way off.

 

There is consistency that is accurate, and there is consistency that is not..........

 

While we all generally accept what the word consistency means, the fact is, our concept of consistency most likely is not what another person's is. So, what is the starting point?

 

With Respect, Of Course.

 

John Curlis

 

As long as your pancakes are consistant it makes no difference to me whatsoever if they match up with another expert's efforts. I can learn over time if your definition of great pancakes compares to anyone elses and therefore make an informed decision as to the prospective quality of your pancakes.

 

Same thing with coins. I don't care what company's name is on a slab as long as that company is fairly consistant with its own grading standards. If, for example, a coin is consistantly a 65 in a XYZ holder but consistantly a 64 in an ABCD holder (or for that matter consistantly a 68 in a WHOCARES slab) then it makes me no difference which holder it is in. I can still make an informed decision as to what the quality of the coin will be.

 

The key word here is consistancy. Yes, I as a collector want it. (Truth in posting info...I have never submitted a coin for grading the first time--let alone resubmitted one hoping for a higher grade. )

 

Matching up with another Expert's efforts is wonderful, but what is the starting point? You are right, the key word is consistency.....according to whose definition?

 

Your logical example of a 64 in ABCD vs. a 65 in XYZ is a good example, but unfortunately does not address the issue of which is the correct grade according to an agreed Standard. While I understand your position, it is not what the focus of my thoughts are, or my questions.

 

By your own experience, you question consistency...because you want it, and are willing to accept that the definition in TPG #1 and/or TPG2, as long as they are consistent with themselves. You then feel you can learn over time which one is more consistent. But, how do you know it is correct? Consistent with what? The TPG self professed definition? What if after your learning curve, you are happy to continue with the TPG you deem consistent, only to find out it is not the agreed Standard?

An informed decision does not equal a correct decision of consistency.

 

But what do I know....

[okbustchaser]

I don't really care which company is "correct" according to anyone else's standards. I buy based on my own standards...whether my standards match those of any given TGP is irrelevant. As long as that company's standards are consistent when compared to mine (ie, their "64" is nearly always my

"65" [or vice versa]) I can make my own conversion as to what I think the coin is worth.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I don't really care which company is "correct" according to anyone else's standards. I buy based on my own standards...whether my standards match those of any given TGP is irrelevant. As long as that company's standards are consistent when compared to mine (ie, their "64" is nearly always my

"65" [or vice versa]) I can make my own conversion as to what I think the coin is worth.

 

I understand.

 

Your position is that an agreed Standard, a starting point, that clearly establishes a consistency playing field for all, that has built-in safeguards, such as tested Graders all tested on their knowledge of the agreed Standard (as well as their eyesight/color spectrum), is useless, because you may have different Standards.

 

The consistency Standard, if there were one, would be meaningless to you, because you can make the determination of the worth of a coin.

Why use a TPG at all? Why buy a TPG graded coin at all? Because their Standards (untested/no starting point that is agreed to by all) match yours?

How is this consistency for all?

 

We want what we want, but we really don't know what we want, I guess.

[okbustchaser]

The consistency Standard, if there were one, would be meaningless to you, because you can make the determination of the worth of a coin.

Why use a TPG at all? Why buy a TPG graded coin at all? Because their Standards (untested/no starting point that is agreed to by all) match yours?

 

I understand what you are saying as well. However, this exact thing is why I buy as many raw coins as I do certified...and the certified coins that I do buy magically turn into raw ones.

 

I wouldn't mind the establishment of a Consistency Standard against which all TPCs (and individual collectors) could be measured. In fact, I think that one currently exists. It's called the open market. TPGs are already measured against the market which is why a certain company's grades are more valued than anothers.

 

 

Something to keep in mind is that complete consistancy--even within an individual company--is a pipe dream. Human subjectivity is exactly that--subject to change.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

The consistency Standard, if there were one, would be meaningless to you, because you can make the determination of the worth of a coin.

Why use a TPG at all? Why buy a TPG graded coin at all? Because their Standards (untested/no starting point that is agreed to by all) match yours?

 

I understand what you are saying as well. However, this exact thing is why I buy as many raw coins as I do certified...and the certified coins that I do buy magically turn into raw ones.

 

I wouldn't mind the establishment of a Consistency Standard against which all TPCs (and individual collectors) could be measured. In fact, I think that one currently exists. It's called the open market. TPGs are already measured against the market which is why a certain company's grades are more valued than anothers.

 

 

Something to keep in mind is that complete consistancy--even within an individual company--is a pipe dream. Human subjectivity is exactly that--subject to change.

 

You are starting to understand the thrust of my thoughts, but there is a slight logic flaw in your comments. A consistency Standard does not exist. A market grading Standard (open market) is not a consistent grading Standard. That is why the word market is used.

 

Human subjectivity is not a grading Standard that is established and agreed to and the Graders tested on.

 

I don't really care about the individual company. I care about the Standard of Consistency, that has an agreed starting point for all, with built-in controls.

 

You are equating investment/$ return with collecting and Consistency Standards.That is why we have the inconsistent market you speak about now.

[MarkFeld]

What is the basis, the starting point, of consistency?

How is it defined?

Who determines the definition?

How is it confirmed?

 

I want consistent pancakes. I follow the instructions religiously that are on the Aunt Jemima Box (I like Aunt Jemima best).

 

I get consistent pancakes everyday.

 

One day, a friend visits and will have pancakes with me. He happens to be a recognized pancake Grader. He tastes the pancakes, and pronounces them awful. I explain how I make the pancakes, and he reviews the instructions on the box, and pronounces them as correct. He wants to see my measuring cup. I get it for him. He measures the water to the line the instructions declare is correct. I tell him it is not enough water. He looks at me strangely. After a few more water measures, it is discovered that I can't see worth a darn and did not know that, and had been measuring wrong. To make matters worse, he opens his Pancake Expert Evaluation Kit and uses his Expert measuring cup for the water, and then pours the measured water into my cup. Turns out that the measuring cup I bought at doofus emporium, because it was so cheap, is way off.

 

There is consistency that is accurate, and there is consistency that is not..........

 

While we all generally accept what the word consistency means, the fact is, our concept of consistency most likely is not what another person's is. So, what is the starting point?

 

With Respect, Of Course.

 

John Curlis

 

The "starting point" for consistency is when the same grading company grades the same coin the same, each time it's submitted/re-submitted. Admittedly, that presumes that the condition of the coin is the same, which isn't a given.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

What is the basis, the starting point, of consistency?

How is it defined?

Who determines the definition?

How is it confirmed?

 

I want consistent pancakes. I follow the instructions religiously that are on the Aunt Jemima Box (I like Aunt Jemima best).

 

I get consistent pancakes everyday.

 

One day, a friend visits and will have pancakes with me. He happens to be a recognized pancake Grader. He tastes the pancakes, and pronounces them awful. I explain how I make the pancakes, and he reviews the instructions on the box, and pronounces them as correct. He wants to see my measuring cup. I get it for him. He measures the water to the line the instructions declare is correct. I tell him it is not enough water. He looks at me strangely. After a few more water measures, it is discovered that I can't see worth a darn and did not know that, and had been measuring wrong. To make matters worse, he opens his Pancake Expert Evaluation Kit and uses his Expert measuring cup for the water, and then pours the measured water into my cup. Turns out that the measuring cup I bought at doofus emporium, because it was so cheap, is way off.

 

There is consistency that is accurate, and there is consistency that is not..........

 

While we all generally accept what the word consistency means, the fact is, our concept of consistency most likely is not what another person's is. So, what is the starting point?

 

With Respect, Of Course.

 

John Curlis

 

The "starting point" for consistency is when the same grading company grades the same coin the same, each time it's submitted/re-submitted. Admittedly, that presumes that the condition of the coin is the same, which isn't a given.

 

Thank You Mark.

 

In an interesting discussion of this nature, it is fun to pick and choose the Posts we would like to respond to and/or comment on, and avoid the questions that may be uncomfortable.

 

However, Escapism from the core issue presented by a Poster, via misdirection of the core issue by using a later Post by the same Poster that appears to be the core issue, is sort of, well, lawyerish...

 

Might it be possible to discuss the original questions 1) thru and including 4) that were asked?

 

Respects,

John

[MarkFeld]

What is the basis, the starting point, of consistency?

How is it defined?

Who determines the definition?

How is it confirmed?

 

I want consistent pancakes. I follow the instructions religiously that are on the Aunt Jemima Box (I like Aunt Jemima best).

 

I get consistent pancakes everyday.

 

One day, a friend visits and will have pancakes with me. He happens to be a recognized pancake Grader. He tastes the pancakes, and pronounces them awful. I explain how I make the pancakes, and he reviews the instructions on the box, and pronounces them as correct. He wants to see my measuring cup. I get it for him. He measures the water to the line the instructions declare is correct. I tell him it is not enough water. He looks at me strangely. After a few more water measures, it is discovered that I can't see worth a darn and did not know that, and had been measuring wrong. To make matters worse, he opens his Pancake Expert Evaluation Kit and uses his Expert measuring cup for the water, and then pours the measured water into my cup. Turns out that the measuring cup I bought at doofus emporium, because it was so cheap, is way off.

 

There is consistency that is accurate, and there is consistency that is not..........

 

While we all generally accept what the word consistency means, the fact is, our concept of consistency most likely is not what another person's is. So, what is the starting point?

 

With Respect, Of Course.

 

John Curlis

 

The "starting point" for consistency is when the same grading company grades the same coin the same, each time it's submitted/re-submitted. Admittedly, that presumes that the condition of the coin is the same, which isn't a given.

 

Thank You Mark.

 

In an interesting discussion of this nature, it is fun to pick and choose the Posts we would like to respond to and/or comment on, and avoid the questions that may be uncomfortable.

 

However, Escapism from the core issue presented by a Poster, via misdirection of the core issue by using a later Post by the same Poster that appears to be the core issue, is sort of, well, lawyerish...

 

Might it be possible to discuss the original questions 1) thru and including 4) that were asked?

 

Respects,

John

 

John, it seemed to me as if your question about where to start was a good and (admittedly/thankfully) time saving one with which to start.

 

In reply to your other ones, (and I can't promise, but I will try to answer them more fully over the weekend)...

 

 

"1)Would it be helpful if the same rule book about grading standards is agreed to by all, and used to establish the criteria, in order to ascertain the consistency playing field?"

 

Yes, but that won't happen

 

"2)Would it then be helpful to test all TPG Graders, or for that matter, anyone involved in the grading of the coin, when the purpose for the grading is selling to/assuring the Public? ( and would it be helpful to re-test every 6 months, and to be required to have continuing education-say when the coins are minted with a new date and/or design)."

 

Again, yes, but it won't happen

 

"3)Would it be helpful to test the vision and color spectrum of all Graders involved in #2?"

 

If they are passing the tests above, I see no reason to do so.

 

"4)Would it then be helpful to issue a traceable type identification to the tested and passed Graders, that must be used on the coin's suitcase after the coin is graded? (or sold-and I admit this may be a little to much to ask)."

 

I agree, it is too much to ask, and perhaps more than "a little".

 

 

[Raisethis2]

I kinda like the questions being asked by John Curtis and others and I'll chime in with this hypothetical.

 

What precludes the major TPG's say NGC, PCGS, IGC and ANACS from having a seminar where as the major players in the industry they go through coin groupings (all half cents, large cents, small cents, 2 cents, 3 cents etc. and AGREE what surfaces must look like to grade MS 60 thru MS 70 then reduce those agreements to writing for all Graders from every service to follow?

 

If surface condition is actually reduced to writing that removes the latitude in individual opinion that makes this the issue that it is.

 

Do TPG's value inconsistencies between them and competitors? To me it's not like building furniture where there's significant differences in quality from one company to another that can be advertised for gain. But perhaps this is too ambitious an idea.

 

 

[yonico]

Even though I don't submit, I think it would be nice if grading was consistent, but as Carl stated, no two people will see a coin the same way. I'm wondering if anyone will create a software program that can grade a coin?

 

are you being serious? or just joking?

 

last time someone tried that it turned out to be a disaster!!

 

remember COMPUGRADE?

Actually I was. We've had computer technology for years that can read a persons eye retina, read fingerprints, determine dna etc.... Why couldn't it be done for coins? People complain that the tpgs get coins wrong or they get a grade verified by another company that just uses different people to look at the coin. There's no consistency with different eyes on the same coin. Why not a computer??

 

i'm just saying. compugrade tried to do just that, and failed miserably.

first, eye appeal is one of the factors in giving a coin its grade. and i can't think of a way the computer can determine if a coin is eye appealing or not.

second, to have a computer do the grading, you would need first to enter the data into the computer and "tell" him what an MS65 looks like, for example. and different graders see things differently. whose "guidelines" will you take for "teaching" the computer what each grade looks like?

[MarkFeld]

What precludes the major TPG's say NGC, PCGS, IGC and ANACS from having a seminar where as the major players in the industry they go through coin groupings (all half cents, large cents, small cents, 2 cents, 3 cents etc. and AGREE what surfaces must look like to grade MS 60 thru MS 70 then reduce those agreements to writing for all Graders from every service to follow?

 

If surface condition is actually reduced to writing that removes the latitude in individual opinion that makes this the issue that it is....

 

 

 

In my opinion, what precludes it is the fact that it would be impossible to do. There is no possible way to address and put in writing, the infinite number of possible combinations of flaws and conditions of coins that would/could account for any given (60-70) grade, much less all of them.

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Even though I don't submit, I think it would be nice if grading was consistent, but as Carl stated, no two people will see a coin the same way. I'm wondering if anyone will create a software program that can grade a coin?

 

are you being serious? or just joking?

 

last time someone tried that it turned out to be a disaster!!

 

remember COMPUGRADE?

Actually I was. We've had computer technology for years that can read a persons eye retina, read fingerprints, determine dna etc.... Why couldn't it be done for coins? People complain that the tpgs get coins wrong or they get a grade verified by another company that just uses different people to look at the coin. There's no consistency with different eyes on the same coin. Why not a computer??

 

i'm just saying. compugrade tried to do just that, and failed miserably.

first, eye appeal is one of the factors in giving a coin its grade. and i can't think of a way the computer can determine if a coin is eye appealing or not.

second, to have a computer do the grading, you would need first to enter the data into the computer and "tell" him what an MS65 looks like, for example. and different graders see things differently. whose "guidelines" will you take for "teaching" the computer what each grade looks like?

 

Eye appeal is a market grading concept, not a Grading Consistency Standard.

 

That is a subjective issue. It should not be "first", in the discussion we are having.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

What precludes the major TPG's say NGC, PCGS, IGC and ANACS from having a seminar where as the major players in the industry they go through coin groupings (all half cents, large cents, small cents, 2 cents, 3 cents etc. and AGREE what surfaces must look like to grade MS 60 thru MS 70 then reduce those agreements to writing for all Graders from every service to follow?

 

If surface condition is actually reduced to writing that removes the latitude in individual opinion that makes this the issue that it is....

 

 

 

In my opinion, what precludes it is the fact that it would be impossible to do. There is no possible way to address and put in writing, the infinite number of possible combinations of flaws and conditions of coins that would/could account for any given (60-70) grade, much less all of them.

 

Concur, on the basis of Logic.

But (blah, blah) we can have a Forum that establishes an Agreement of Consistency Standard for Grading. (and lots of 3D pictures )

[jom]

The key word here is consistancy. Yes, I as a collector want it. (Truth in posting info...I have never submitted a coin for grading the first time--let alone resubmitted one hoping for a higher grade. )

 

Then one wonders why the TPGs seem to go out of their way to provide more PRECISION (+ signs, stars, shields...and CAC stickers I guess). When consistency is all over the place precision is MEANINGLESS.

 

Yes, I agree with Bill. I couldn't care less about submitting more coins to the TPGs. I just want something you can trust that doesn't change so much over time.

 

Mark...one thing you could ask here is that given that inconsistent grading seems to bring out the crack-out artists (and hence more submissions) why would the TPGs want to me more consistent? From an revenue stand point is it really in their best interest to be more consistent? I've wondered this for years and haven't really received a satisfactory answer to this contradiction. Is this not a potential conflict of interest?

 

jom

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

The key word here is consistancy. Yes, I as a collector want it. (Truth in posting info...I have never submitted a coin for grading the first time--let alone resubmitted one hoping for a higher grade. )

 

Then one wonders why the TPGs seem to go out of their way to provide more PRECISION (+ signs, stars, shields...and CAC stickers I guess). When consistency is all over the place precision is MEANINGLESS.

 

Yes, I agree with Bill. I couldn't care less about submitting more coins to the TPGs. I just want something you can trust that doesn't change so much over time.

 

Mark...one thing you could ask here is that given that inconsistent grading seems to bring out the crack-out artists (and hence more submissions) why would the TPGs want to me more consistent? From an revenue stand point is it really in their best interest to be more consistent? I've wondered this for years and haven't really received a satisfactory answer to this contradiction. Is this not a potential conflict of interest?

 

jom

 

It is market grading that is the contradiction.

 

Consistency within a given TPG will not set aside market grading or limit re-submission attempts, if there is no Agreement for all, that all will adhere to.

 

Crack out submitters are availing themselves of the market grading opportunity and human assessment opinion.

 

Revenue enhancement should not ever be the basis of numismatic Grading.

 

The precision you mention is not precision; it is market grading enhancement that we, as customers of the TPG asked them to provide, for monetary gain. Lets not kid ourselves. We caused the problem, not the TPGs or the qualified Graders.

 

Coin collecting is now a stock market pursuit of sorts, with the Hobby element being secondary to the majority of us, because we worry like heck we are not buying the best of the best of the best of the best, with the colored sticker that is offered at the top of the mountain. If we can only make it to the top of the mountain

 

[bsshog40]

Even though I don't submit, I think it would be nice if grading was consistent, but as Carl stated, no two people will see a coin the same way. I'm wondering if anyone will create a software program that can grade a coin?

 

are you being serious? or just joking?

 

last time someone tried that it turned out to be a disaster!!

 

remember COMPUGRADE?

Actually I was. We've had computer technology for years that can read a persons eye retina, read fingerprints, determine dna etc.... Why couldn't it be done for coins? People complain that the tpgs get coins wrong or they get a grade verified by another company that just uses different people to look at the coin. There's no consistency with different eyes on the same coin. Why not a computer??

 

What would be the consistency starting point for the computer program?

I agree with Marks statement for the starting point of consistency. Sometimes people aren't sitting at the boards all day to respond to your question.

[Walkerfan]

I like cherry picking the under-graded stuff.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Even though I don't submit, I think it would be nice if grading was consistent, but as Carl stated, no two people will see a coin the same way. I'm wondering if anyone will create a software program that can grade a coin?

 

are you being serious? or just joking?

 

last time someone tried that it turned out to be a disaster!!

 

remember COMPUGRADE?

Actually I was. We've had computer technology for years that can read a persons eye retina, read fingerprints, determine dna etc.... Why couldn't it be done for coins? People complain that the tpgs get coins wrong or they get a grade verified by another company that just uses different people to look at the coin. There's no consistency with different eyes on the same coin. Why not a computer??

 

What would be the consistency starting point for the computer program?

I agree with Marks statement for the starting point of consistency. Sometimes people aren't sitting at the boards all day to respond to your question.

 

If you have an issue you would like to discuss, I am most happy to do so. Your Post seems a little haughty and derisive, but I can't imagine why.

 

Why would you feel the need to respond in a personal attack manner?

 

I did not ask you to respond at all. I am asking a question.

 

Agreeing or disagreeing with Mr. Feld is not the point of my question, nor the thrust of my Posts.

 

The agreement of the starting point is immaterial; it is arriving at a consensus of the starting point definition of consistency.

 

If you are offended because a Post you make begs a question, especially when it is about computer equality of the human eye, then I do not know how I can make amends.

 

The question remains:

 

What would be the consistency starting point of the computer program?

 

You can answer or not; whether and when you answer or not, does not negate the question.

 

It is not hard to be courteous.