Grade vs. Strike - Updated: mages added

[Weidel Legacy Collection]

Here's the scenario and it involves early MS Jefferson nickels:

 

On one hand are two coins - one is a 1938 and the other a 1939 Jeff Rev '40 - both are slabbed by our host as MS67. They are very nice examples and look like they both just came from the mint. On the other hand are two coins from the same date and Rev (for the '39) in MS66 with the strike attribution of 5 full steps.

 

The question is: which would you rather have and why - the higher graded coin or the one that is a notch below (which is debateable since these were just graded this week and our hosts are being very stingy on grades) with a better strike? Assume the difference in color/toning is negligable, and all are approprately graded.

 

I know the difference in registry points between the different examples, but that's a minimal factor for me. Also, if these were attributed with 6 full steps, the decision would be easy, but both were just a touch short and I knew that when I submitted them. Admittedly, images would probably help, but the newly graded ones are winging their way back to me now, so I don't have them.

 

Thanks for sharing your insight.

 

** Update **

First of all, my apologies for the images. It's been awhile since I've taken shots of coins, so they're not the best - but, they are reasonable representations of what the coins look like in hand.

 

Grades and attributions are nice and they give you a good starting point when looking at a coin - but it comes down to what the coin looks like in hand and what matters to you and the collection you are building!

 

First up are the two 1938 Nickels. The obverse is very clear on the MS67 and there are a couple of marks in the field below Monticello. Although the steps are soft, looking at it in-hand, and comparing the steps to the MS66 5FS example, I'm really thinking this ought to be resubmitted, although a soft spot under the 1st pillar on step #5 has me thinking it might not be worth the money to do so.

 

On the MS66 version, there are a couple of marks in the hair and the jaw isn't quite as clean as the MS67 example, although the reverse is mark clear. The color on the MS66 is sweeter in appearance than it is on the MS67. The steps just make it for the 5FS attribution. All in all, IMHO the MS66 example is superior

 

1938 MS67 Obverse:

 

1938 MS67 Reverse:

 

1938 MS67 Steps

 

1938 MS66 Obverse:

 

1938 MS66 Reverse:

 

1938 MS66 Steps

 

Now for the 1939 nickels:

On the MS67 example, there is a small hit below the eye on the obverse and the tiniest bit of chatter below the 2nd window on Monticello on the obverse, and that's about it. I've little doubt this could gain the 5 step attribution so probably will have to visit NGC sometime in the future.

 

On the MS67 example, there are several marks in the hair on the obverse and several hits on Monticello on the reverse. Although this unquestionably has 5 steps, I'm thinking the MS67 is a better example, and probably ought to merit 5 FS on a resubmit.

 

1939 MS67 Obverse:

 

1939 MS67 Reverse:

 

1939 MS67 Steps

 

1939 MS66 Obverse:

 

1939 MS66 Reverse:

 

1939 MS66 Steps

 

Thanks for taking the time to look!

[Catbert]

I would choose the one that appealed to my eye regardless of grade or designation.

[yonico]

On certain dates, full steps are very hard to find. So if its a hard date for FS, I would rather have the MS66 FS.

But in general, FS are no indication for a stronger or fuller strike. So I guess it's a personal preference, but I would take the coin with stronger and fuller strike - the one that grades 67.

[Weidel Legacy Collection]

Carbert - nice name! - that's probably the best answer .

 

I'll have to post pictures when I have all of them together so the lighting will be consistent. Of course, then the lowest common denominator will be my ability to take pictures.

[Weidel Legacy Collection]

Yonico -

isn't the difference between MS66 and MS67 based largely on condition, with some consideration given for luster, and some/less for strike? If that's the case - someone weigh in on this - there could be a mark or two present on a 66 that would be absent from the 67. I know there are sometimes 'bumps' given for color or other subjective elements, but thought/believe that condition is still the main determinant of grade with everything else playing a supporting role.

 

As Catbert said, it all depends on what looks best to the viewer, but I'm still asking for input based solely on grade and strike.

[jom]

I would choose the one that appealed to my eye regardless of grade or designation.

 

This.

 

jom

[yonico]

Yonico -

isn't the difference between MS66 and MS67 based largely on condition, with some consideration given for luster, and some/less for strike? If that's the case - someone weigh in on this - there could be a mark or two present on a 66 that would be absent from the 67. I know there are sometimes 'bumps' given for color or other subjective elements, but thought/believe that condition is still the main determinant of grade with everything else playing a supporting role.

 

As Catbert said, it all depends on what looks best to the viewer, but I'm still asking for input based solely on grade and strike.

 

True.

I agree that eye appeal means a lot. But eye appeal is very subjective. To some people, MS61 rainbow toned coin is much more appealing than a blast white MS64, and some people would prefer a stained/hazy proof with cameo over a non-cameo "clean" proof..

All I'm saying is that the FS designation does not indicate that the strike is full/strong - hence some dates with beautiful complete strike at MS67 and only 10% of the gems have full steps. Same thing could be found with FH SLQ's (1919-D..?), or FBL franklins (1953-S).

[lehigh96]

Both the 1938 & 1939 Rev of 40 are common as dirt in NGC MS67 and usually sell for about $100. When you drop down to MS66 5FS for these dates the coins become more scarce in the marketplace and the price doubles for the 1938. Since you made the disclaimer that the toning/eye appeal is about the same, I would rather have the full step examples.

 

I feel compelled to point out a few things. While NGC recognizes the difference between 5FS and 6FS, very few collectors care about the difference since PCGS recognizes any coin with 5FS as FS. Furthermore, there is a significant difference in the way that PCGS grades Jefferson Nickels compared to NGC. PCGS is usually at least 1/2 grade more conservative and some dates a full grade more conservative in their numerical grading. That said, NGC is much more strict in their application of the full step designation. All this makes collecting registry quality Jefferson Nickels more challenging and difficult than most people like to believe.

 

In my registry set, my 1938 is a PCGS MS66 FS with great eye appeal. My 1939 Rev of 40 will always be either the Doubled Monticello or QDR.

 

Paul

[BillJones]

I can't answer this question very well because I can't relate to full step Jefferson nickels. My general reaction is that I would buy the coin with the best eye appeal. A small area, like the steps, might be the most important factor for me.

 

One something like a Three Dollar Gold PIece, the hair detail above Ms. Liberty's forehead is important to me. If that is fully sturck that might make the decision for me.

[Raisethis2]

I have had a couple mushy strike Jeffersons in the past few months in high grade and they do nothing for me. I prefer an exceedingly well struck coin in almost every circumstance.

 

Full Steps for me.

[RWB]

To me, "grade" is a state of preservation; "strike" is the visible detail. I've seen a lot of MS66-67 coins that are nicely preserved, but have awful detail. My presumption is that the authentication/grading companies do not link the two descriptors tightly.

[rockhobby]

IMHO a full step Jefferson Nickel set is the hardest modern set to complete in superb gem (66-67) condition. Several years are virtually unknown in full step with the toughest being 1968 D (none known). I have replaced quite a few MS67 coins in my set with MS66 5FS or even MS65 5FS due to the difficulty inherent in finding TRUE full step coins.

 

As far as the Grade vs. Strike criteria here is the page from NGC as to how they determine the Grade level of a Jefferson Nickel:

 

NGC Jefferson Nickel Groding

 

Doug

 

 

[cladking]

To me strike is the most important attribute of most coins. But strike takes into consideration the condition of the die, the pressure of the strike, and the alignment of the dies.

 

But strike considerations are primarily paramount on issues that are usually very poorly made. A 1966 Indian 1 paise coin demands a solid strike to be Gem to my eye. But 1938 and '39 nickels generally come pretty well made so strike isn't as critical. Also as Yanico said FS and solid strikes are not as well correlated as many might think. Some FS are poorly made and some exceedingly well struck coins do not have FS and, perhaps, no steps at all. In other words full strike and full steps are not the same at all.

 

This isn't to say I don't like FS merely that strike on most Jeffersons takes precedence over full steps. I'd love to have a '68-D FS 5c even if it's not extremely well made, or even well preserved.

 

Strike is simply critical on issues that are generally poorly struck from poorly executed and heavily worn dies. This applies to most moderns since most are poorly made. It applies to these poorly made coins whether they are scarce or common.

[cladking]

IMHO a full step Jefferson Nickel set is the hardest modern set to complete in superb gem (66-67) condition. Several years are virtually unknown in full step with the toughest being 1968 D (none known). I have replaced quite a few MS67 coins in my set with MS66 5FS or even MS65 5FS due to the difficulty inherent in finding TRUE full step coins.

 

As far as the Grade vs. Strike criteria here is the page from NGC as to how they determine the Grade level of a Jefferson Nickel:

 

NGC Jefferson Nickel Groding

 

 

Jeffersons are a bear. One sided Gems are pretty common for many dates but two sided Gems are just about impossible. For a lot of the post-'64 dates being both two sided Gem and FS is rare to non-existent.

 

I think the best way to collect these is great strikes in MS-65 (or 66 if it's affordable). You'll end up with a lot of great coins at extremely low cost and a lot of steps including a few FS (mostly for the early dates).

[johnny9434]

I would choose the one that appealed to my eye regardless of grade or designation.

i'll go along with that totally. good answer.

[jom]

To me strike is the most important attribute of most coins....

 

Each person I guess it different...which if fine.

 

Interesting to note: In the recent PCGS grading class I took SURFACES was the primary attribute for MS coin...at least with PCGS standards. I believe 60% of the grade for MS coins are the surfaces...according to the class.

 

jom

[Weidel Legacy Collection]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful posts and comments. When I get them in hand again I'm looking forward to putting the examples side-by-side and deciding which stays and which goes.

 

After reading the posts from yesterday and earlier this morning I had to pull out an NGC storage box of the earliest Jeff's I have slabbed just to take a look at the '38 and '39 again. Naturally couldn't stop until I had looked at all 20 coins in the box - most are 67's with a couple of 66's thrown in, and half of those are FS...about evenly divided between 5FS and 6FS. In high grade, fully struck - especially with some toning - the Jeff nickel really is an attractive design. What's neat, and I had forgotten, is that a number of examples I have in older holders are 5FS but aren't so labeled because they were slabbed before NGC started adding that designation.

 

Like I said, it will be fun to do a side-by-side.

[Weidel Legacy Collection]

Coins back from NGC - images added.

[e1cnr]

Jefferson's are my favorite. The differences in steps is very minimal on your coins. For your 1938's, if you cracked them out and sent in raw, the designations given on either or both could easily change.

 

I would keep them all, unless it was a one or the other choice.

 

A couple things not mentioned that I would consider are your thoughts on die polish and die state. Some people like die polish and others hate it, but you have some on your coins. Die state becomes more obvious with late die states causing wavyness in the fields and mushiness of peripheral lettering.

 

Strike quality is hard to define with nickels due to the planchet hardness of the nickel and its effects on the die. The full step designation is important to some collectors, but I have seen some full step coins where the rest of the coin is 'mushy'.

 

I have grown fond of attractive color on Jeffersons.

[lehigh96]

All four of these coins are very well struck which is typical of Jeffersons minted in Philadelphia in 1938 & 1939.

 

Regarding the 1938's, it is clear that the MS67 misses the full step designation. Given that the surfaces and eye appeal look comparable, I prefer the MS66 FS example.

 

The 1939's are tougher to evaluate because I honestly don't know what is holding the MS67 back from having full steps. They both look like full step coins to me. I like the appearance of the MS67 more than that of the MS66 FS and would prefer that coin even though it was not blessed with a FS designation.

[Tradedollarnut]

First 1938, second 1939 are what I would keep