What can be done with coins that have came back as UNC Cleaned?

[wdrob]

What can be done with coins that have came back as UNC Cleaned?

 

I have one that came back Cleaning -UNC Details and it really is detailed. The coin is beautiful, to me, but I can't believe that there is nothing that can be done to allow it to be once again graded in the future.

 

It is still in the PCGS slab and rather than cracking it out I was thinking about taking my Dremel tool and a small drill bit and drilling a circle of small holes in the plastic slab all around the coin to allow it to breathe and possibly tone.

 

If I did this, and it was to gain some toning to it in time, would it be advisable to resubmit? I just can't imagine the thought that a coin is no longer worth more than melt just because of Cleaning (Not Improperly Cleaning mind you) just cleaned.

 

Any advice?

 

 

[$ilverHawk]

What can be done with coins that have came back as UNC Cleaned?

 

I have one that came back Cleaning -UNC Details and it really is detailed. The coin is beutiful, to me, but I can't believe that there is nothing that can be done to allow it to be once again graded in the future.

 

It is still in the PCGS slab and rather than cracking it out I was thinking about taking my Dremel tool and a small drill bit and drilling a circle of small holes in the plastic slab all around the coin to allow it to breathe and possibly tone.

 

If I did this, and it was to gain some toning to it in time, would it be advisable to resubmit? I just can't imagine the thought that a coin is no longer worth more than melt just because of Cleaning (Not Improperly Cleaning mind you) just cleaned.

 

Any advice?

 

 

Any pics available?

 

Carl

[wdrob]

 

In the slab or out?

 

***Edit: I will add both.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

It honestly depends on the sign that PCGS picked up on that led it to believe that the coin was improperly cleaned. If there are noticeable hairlines, then it is doubtful that much could ever be done (while keeping the coin in mint state condition) although toning could potentially hide the hairlines. With this said, I have seen some Capped Bust Half Dollars for instance, that look too glossy but otherwise hide other tell tale signs of cleaning. Coins like this could be toned by placing it in, e.g., an envelope over time. Many still won't make it into problem free holders, but I feel like there would at least be a shot. If the luster is impaired, I think it would be near impossible to make the coin passable at the current grade level.

[bochiman]

Find a coin doctor and go down that dark path, or circulate the coin (wear) until it is considered natural but at a lower state.

[wdrob]

 

 

Here they are prior to submitting.

 

 

 

 

 

And after slabbed. I noticed there was a ding in the horse after I received it back as well. As you can see it was not there prior to submission.

 

 

 

 

And a close up of the ding on the horses neck that wasn't ther eprior to submission. Someone must have dropped it over there or something.

 

 

 

Some suggested it was 'whizzed' but the lettering and such did not indicate 'whizzing' of the coin. I would suppose that the grader did not think it was 'whizzed' either since it was classed 92 instead of 98 (I think that is Improperly Cleaned).

 

There are no scratch trails like it had been wiped or polished and that area in the picture that looks like there maybe some scratches on the obverse really is not that pronounced. Under 5x loupe I can angle it at all angles with back light and upper light and there are barely traces of any scratches. They definitely are not like a rub back and forth.

 

The other areas that have that look of a business strike should indicate that it was not whizzed.

 

What get's me is if it was not 'Improperly Cleaned' then what is the problem with 'Cleaned'? That is exactly what they do over at the restoration area. So it is OK for them to Properly Clean a coin but not for anyone else?

 

Anyway I just figured a circular series of small holes around the coin slab, and away from the coin it's self, would allow air to enter freely and might make a difference after a period of time.

 

 

 

 

 

[wdrob]

 

Find a coin doctor and go down that dark path

 

I am tempted.

 

 

[HCumberdale]

The slab is not air tight as it is already, so need to resort to drilling. If you want to help it along the toning process, I'd crack it out, put it in an envelope, and keep it on a windowsill for a few months/years.

 

You might be better off selling this one and buying one you are more happy with. Sorry

[wdrob]

It honestly depends on the sign that PCGS picked up on that led it to believe that the coin was improperly cleaned. If there are noticeable hairlines, then it is doubtful that much could ever be done (while keeping the coin in mint state condition) although toning could potentially hide the hairlines. With this said, I have seen some Capped Bust Half Dollars for instance, that look too glossy but otherwise hide other tell tale signs of cleaning. Coins like this could be toned by placing it in, e.g., an envelope over time. Many still won't make it into problem free holders, but I feel like there would at least be a shot. If the luster is impaired, I think it would be near impossible to make the coin passable at the current grade level.

 

Well they classified it as 92 and that definition over there means it was 'Harsh Cleaning or Polishing' . There is no way that I could see anyone calling this harshly cleaned so they must have felt it was polished. Maybe it was but it would seem that even polishing the coin would leave hairline traces of abundance and pronounced.

 

We can take "Whizzed' out of the equation since they classify that under 98. Metal Movement. So all I can figure is that since it does not have heavy cartwheel features (it does exhibit this to some extent) and looked as shiny as it did that it just must have been cleaned. Heck it may have never even been looked at and just tossed to the side and on to the next coin based on an assumption.

 

I have viewed this coin with the naked eye, with a 2x loupe, with a 5x loupe, and finally with a 45x loupe with led lighting and I have yet to see any hairlines with any continuity. I must admit however that I do not have the lighting environment that they do. Maybe that is how they see something that I just have not seen looking under all the lighting conditions that I have available.

 

 

 

[wdrob]

The slab is not air tight as it is already, so need to resort to drilling. If you want to help it along the toning process, I'd crack it out, put it in an envelope, and keep it on a windowsill for a few months/years.

 

You might be better off selling this one and buying one you are more happy with. Sorry

 

I take it that the envelope process is the best method since it has been mentioned many times and if the window will help speed the process then that is the course I will take. .

 

I won't pass on a problem coin to another and pass it off as BU PQ Stunner! though and I wasn't interpreting you as suggesting I do that... I just threw that in because I get a kick out of all the BU PQ Stunner! coins for sale out there.

 

[e1cnr]

the spot on the neck was there, just not as prominent because of lighting

 

PCGS uses 'cleaned' on coins they feel have been 'dipped to death

= overdipped or too many times to impair the natural luster

 

coin has double die on periphery letters giving a whizzed look.

 

if scatches from cleaning are there, you need less light and more angle with magnification, I wou;d look closely ar area behind riders in field.

 

The slab is not helping value now, I would crack and try to get some color on that thing

[wdrob]

the spot on the neck was there, just not as prominent because of lighting (How you are so certain on this I am clueless. Why would you be so certain?)

PCGS uses 'cleaned' on coins they feel have been 'dipped to death

= overdipped or too many times to impair the natural luster

 

Not according to them under their definition of the 92 classification: "Surface damage due to any form of abrasive cleaning. "Cleaned" covers a wide range or appearances, from a grossly polished coin to one where faint hairlines can be seen only at a particular angle or in only one area on an otherwise perfectly normal coin. This is perhaps the most frustrating of all the No Grades, because subtle cleaning is often difficult to detect in less-than-optimal grading conditions. "Dipping" (the removal of toning with a chemical bath) is not considered cleaning under this definition.

 

coin has double die on periphery letters giving a whizzed look.

 

See that should be evidence of it NOT being whizzed since whizzing alters the letters and alters double die letters even worse. If it was whizzed then that DD would not be as apparent imo. And apparently theirs too because they did not classify it under 98 which is "movement of metal".

 

 

if scatches from cleaning are there, you need less light and more angle with magnification, I wou;d look closely ar area behind riders in field.

 

I agree. That is the only place there are any scratches if you could even call them that. There is no uniformity to the insignificant marks that are there and that is both under intense light as well as subtle light. Of-course I do not have the lighting and conditions they have but I have seen coins that have been rubbed, polished, and harshly cleaned and this looks nothing like those under any light I have available or at any angle.

 

 

The slab is not helping value now, I would crack and try to get some color on that thing

 

I did just that a few minutes ago. I guess only time will help fix what is not even there. It may not turn though according to the info write up on the Coin Explorer here.

 

It states: "Stone Mountain halves are typically quite frosty, with luster that ranges all the way from dull to flashy." I think mine falls in the flashy description. I don't think it was flashy because it was manipulated. But like you said .... It doesn't matter now.

 

 

[ldhair]

The 92 code covers a lot of different types of cleaning. That includes coins that have been dipped too much. On the very first image the high points look polished. I don't feel you can do anything to help the coin or ever get it in a good holder. PCGS got it right.

[BillJones]

Your first picture tells it all. The coin has been polished, and there is no cure for that except putting in your pocket as a pocket piece and allowing it to wear down to EF or less. That will result in a completely new surface for the piece which will negate the polishing. Of course the piece would be a circulated Stone Mountain half dollar which only worth $25 or $30.

 

Sometimes a coin is given the cleaned designation without merit. The level of this disagreement can range from, "The grading service blew it," to "This is where experts differ." In either case you need to be a very competent grader or consult an expert because you will be wasting you money if the coin really has been messed with drastically.

 

If it is "the experts differ" situation I would recommend cracking the coin out of the existing holder and shipping it to the other major service. If it flunks a second time, I'd advise you to accept the verdict. I've had NGC body bag a coin for cleaning and then had had PCGS grade it. (The coin had been dipped not cleaned.) And I've had PCGS body bag a coin, and NGC graded it. (I couldn't see any problem with that coin at all, but you can't fight city hall; appeals are a useless waste of time and money IMO.)

 

Sometimes a cleaned coin looks better and might grade after it has toned naturally. That can take several years and requires the right conditions and some luck. There is also the coin doctor route, but I'm not going there.

 

[wdrob]

 

The 92 code covers a lot of different types of cleaning. That includes coins that have been dipped too much.

 

I was just quoting their website grading standards word for word. It specifically said what I had in bold up top there. Don't shoot the messenger. I just go by what they have posted in print. Now whether they follow what they claim is an entirely different matter.

 

 

 

Your first picture tells it all. The coin has been polished, and there is no cure for that except putting in your pocket as a pocket piece and allowing it to wear down to EF or less.

 

Yeah I can live with that then. I guess I need to learn more about how they cheat, doctor, etc.. coins so I know when I am looking at a coin that, to me, shows no signs of hairlines and definitely not in any uniform manner it is actually doctored, polished, etc.. It is amazing really that I have seen some slabbed coins by both of the big boys that were graded 64 and 65 with what looked like someone took sandpaper and scrubbed up and down yet they reject mine.

 

In this case I would recommend cracking the coin out of the existing holder and shipping it to the other major service.

 

No I had best call it the end of the line for that coin and just leave it in the little envelope and on the window sill like someone suggested. Maybe it can be a pretty toned coin one day. I won't spend anymore money on grading fees for that coin. I have others being graded right now. Maybe I will get lucky on those like I have a few others.

 

Thanks to all for the suggestions.

[BillJones]

I know when I am looking at a coin that, to me, shows no signs of hairlines and definitely not in any uniform manner it is actually doctored, polished, etc..

 

Polishing does not necessarily result in hairlines, at least not ones that you can see easily. If someone worked on this with something like a chamois the surfaces would be so smooth, you would need a microscope to see the lines.

 

Here is a Stone Mountain with the original surfaces. It is toned, but I hope that you can see the difference.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

The coin appears polished. I believe there is nothing that will ever make it look 100% "right", but long storage in a vintage album may help it look much better.

 

Be prepared to wait 10 years.

[wdrob]

 

Thanks for that example Bill.

 

 

if scatches from cleaning are there, you need less light and more angle with magnification, I wou;d look closely ar area behind riders in field.

 

Well I must have finally got in just the correct angle of low light conditions to briefly see the uniform scratches. I had to use my 45X loupe and even then they just appear briefly at a certain angle and light. Really hard for me to get that angle to stay long enough to really study it.

 

So I now know why they say it was cleaned; because of some uniform hairlines in the fields. I feel much better now that I can actually see why they came to that conclusion.

 

They say they only use 5X to 10X loupes to grade coins. I think they used a heck of allot more power than that to see those scratches or maybe it is just the optimum lighting conditions they work under that makes it easier to spot at lower magnification.

 

It is a shame that someone does that to a coin. Than again it may not have been intentional. Maybe someone just rubbed it with their shirt not knowing any better.

 

I would buy one slabbed but I just primarily wanted the coin for sentimental reasons since I have been visiting and walking up the side of that big rock since the early 70's so I think this coin will do just fine for that. It will just be a coin I could never sell in good conscience.

 

 

 

 

[wdrob]

 

10 years? The silver composition must really play a major roll in how quickly something will turn. I had a 1 oz bar sitting on my mom's picture frame in the living room. It is one of those Ten Commandments bars and her urn sits right there next to it as well. That bar, .999, was turning within a month.

 

 

[bsshog40]

10 years? The silver composition must really play a major roll in how quickly something will turn. I had a 1 oz bar sitting on my mom's picture frame in the living room. It is one of those Ten Commandments bars and her urn sits right there next to it as well. That bar, .999, was turning within a month.

 

I think jame's 10 yr mark was based around the coin gaining back some original patina and looking normal again. A cleaned coin can be toned very easily and quickly, but the damage is still visible.

[BillJones]

10 years? The silver composition must really play a major roll in how quickly something will turn. I had a 1 oz bar sitting on my mom's picture frame in the living room. It is one of those Ten Commandments bars and her urn sits right there next to it as well. That bar, .999, was turning within a month.

 

I think jame's 10 yr mark was based around the coin gaining back some original patina and looking normal again. A cleaned coin can be toned very easily and quickly, but the damage is still visible.

 

Polished is a whole different situation. Even a layer of natual toning can't hide that it. Polished is worse than cleaned IMO.

[ldhair]

"Don't shoot the messenger."

Really.

[wdrob]

 

Ok. Please don't shoot the messenger.

[jerseycat10]

What can be done with coins that have came back as UNC Cleaned?

 

Any advice?

 

 

Yes, don't buy expensive raw coins until you are confident you can detect cleaning, polishing, and other surface issues that will result in bodybags.

[wdrob]

 

 

I stay away from the expensive raw coins. I don't think I paid a great amount for that Stone Mtn. Maybe $60 or $70 if my memory serves me right.

 

I lost the most on that 1926 Oregon. I made up for most, if not all, of my bad purchases with a raw 1987-S ASE. Bought it for $75.00 and got rid of it quickly for $1,075.00 ..... I also made some money on a SMS set that graded pretty high. I didn't clear much there but that was OK. It was a gain and not a loss.

 

I spend most of my budget on Bullion and Slabbed ASE's as well as various other slabbed coins. I have bought way more slabbed coins than I have raw. But I definitely see that I need to be more careful and less impulsive on any raw coin buys in the future.

 

***Edit***

 

Oh, and I should know by the end of this week or early next week about that 46 Walker. I talked myself into sending it in along with 3 other coins. If it goes like I conservatively set the grade then I have a real chance at a couple grand to reinvest into the hobby. That and Antique Pocket Watches.

 

 

[RWB]

Try assuming that whatever coins you buy, you will not be able to sell for 20 years. That will help you focus on individual quality and not moneary value.

[wdrob]

 

That is what I am doing with some of the stuff I have for sell. I put a higher price on them instead of dropping the price really low in order to sell quickly. Truth is I could not care either way if they sold. The premium I put on my silver for sell is high enough that I don't think there is anyone that will touch it. But when the spot on silver rises they will be marketable at the price.

 

It sure is funny how I see people buying up a particular coin and once I get a good profitable deal on one the market is as dry as the creek bed behind my house. I then have to drop the price if I am in need of some cash just to get some bites.

 

 

[mtnstyne]

Most times you see an extremely uniformly shiny coin with no luster it is polished.

 

Take a MS common morgan (with luster) that you can pick up for virtually melt value and polish it and you will be able to recognize a polished coin in the future.

[Conder101]

So I now know why they say it was cleaned; because of some uniform hairlines in the fields.

It wasn't from seeing "uniform hairlines in the fields", it was from the overall polished appearance.

[coinman_23885]

The 92 code covers a lot of different types of cleaning. That includes coins that have been dipped too much. On the very first image the high points look polished. I don't feel you can do anything to help the coin or ever get it in a good holder. PCGS got it right.

 

Based on the new images, I have to agree. The coin is polished and there is no way to make it passable at a mint state level. You could allow the coin to wear gradually into a mid grade circulated piece; however, I think that would defeat your intent.