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Please Post Your CAC or Fourth Party Grading Verification Errors

Started by coinman_23885,

36 posts in this topic

coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted

Please post your CAC or fourth party grading errors. By "error," I am referring to a coin that either stickered and should not have stickered or a coin that did not sticker and should have. The goal of this thread is not to create chaos, but to start an educational thread. I hope this thread will help elucidate some trends in fourth party grading verification and what is considered acceptable to them and what is not.

 

Please no flame wars or arguments about whether these services are useful. I'm seeking to demonstrate how they grade and behave, and not their utility.

 

Disclaimer: Unfortunately, there is always a risk associated with some topics. I think the potential benefits or knowledge that could be gleaned by honest posts to threads like this far outweighs any negative consequences. Also, neither of my threads is meant to target any of the companies; regardless of how great a company is (and everyone is entitled to their opinions), EVERYONE makes mistakes.

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

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You are opening a can of worms here by putting CAC in the mix.

 

Honestly that is not my intention. I truly mean this as an educational topic. Unfortunately, there is always a risk associated with some topics. I think the potential benefits or knowledge that could be gleaned by honest posts to threads like this far outweighs any negative consequences. Also, neither of my threads is meant to target any of the companies; regardless of how great a company is (and everyone is entitled to their opinions), EVERYONE makes mistakes.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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Posted

Which other fourth party companies, if any, do you have in mind besides Eagle Eye?

 

One of the main problems with such exercises is the limitations of (even excellent) images in many/most cases. Another is the lack of objectivity and/or expertise on the part of the poster.

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

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Which other fourth party companies, if any, do you have in mind besides Eagle Eye?

 

One of the main problems with such exercises is the limitations of (even excellent) images in many/most cases. Another is the lack of objectivity and/or expertise on the part of the poster.

 

There was one start-up operation called Second Party Grading Service or something comparable that was meant as a competitor to CAC. In addition to considering NGC and PCGS coins, they also verified ANACS and ICG coins. I believe this company is no longer around.

 

Regarding the limitations, I fully agree with you. I know that the images will be a limiting factor as will the potential selection bias (i.e. it is somewhat subjective on each poster as to what constitutes an error). Notwithstanding the limitations, I truly hope some value can result from this thread. At a minimum, I hope that the photography is good enough that regardless of any putative error, it will allow each collector to consider the standards and trends from these companies and be able to make his/her own determination as to how this relates to his or her own individual tastes.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
Which other fourth party companies, if any, do you have in mind besides Eagle Eye?

 

One of the main problems with such exercises is the limitations of (even excellent) images in many/most cases. Another is the lack of objectivity and/or expertise on the part of the poster.

 

There was one start-up operation called Second Party Grading Service or something comparable that was meant as a competitor to CAC. In addition to considering NGC and PCGS coins, they also verified ANACS and ICG coins. I believe this company is no longer around.

 

Regarding the limitations, I fully agree with you. I know that the images will be a limiting factor as will the potential selection bias (i.e. it is somewhat subjective on each poster as to what constitutes an error). Notwithstanding the limitations, I truly hope some value can result from this thread. At a minimum, I hope that the photography is good enough that regardless of any putative error, it will allow each collector to consider the standards and trends from these companies and be able to make his/her own determination as to how this relates to his or her own individual tastes.

 

It sounds like, in essence, you are asking about CAC, then. ;)

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

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It sounds like, in essence, you are asking about CAC, then. ;)

 

Not quite. The Second Party Grading Service (or whatever it was called) still has stickered coins on the market. Also, as you point out, Eagle Eye is also around. :)

 

With this said CAC is certainly included on the list.

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jom

jom

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I suppose I could show an SLQ that I really really REALLY disagree with JA on. But is that a mistake of CAC or rather just an difference of opinion? In fact, I'll lose the opinion battle given I'm up against JA AND it is my coin (ie me being biased).

 

25c-20p.jpg

 

Note: This is the only coin I've sent to them that I could not see his POV on why it did not "bean". It's PCGS graded MS65 and I believe it is at least a "B" coin....if not "A". IMO.

 

Is this what you are looking for?

 

jom

 

PS: That's a new verb the coin market has created: "bean". lol

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

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Is this what you are looking for?

 

When I first created this thread, I had envisioned more clear cut examples, but your coin does fit in the description as to how the services relate to personal taste. Please leave the eye candy. I love seeing it every time you post it. ;)

 

With regards to your SLQ, my guess is that the knee and the mark behind the head were likely what kept the coin from stickering; however, I tend to agree with you that I would have stickered it notwithstanding the issue. I have seen far worse in gem holders. I also agree with you that this coin isn't so much an "error" as a difference of taste..

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brg5658

brg5658

Posted
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Is this what you are looking for?

 

When I first created this thread, I had envisioned more clear cut examples, but your coin does fit in the description as to how the services relate to personal taste. Please leave the eye candy. I love seeing it every time you post it. ;)

 

With regards to your SLQ, my guess is that the knee and the mark behind the head were likely what kept the coin from stickering; however, I tend to agree with you that I would have stickered it notwithstanding the issue. I have seen far worse in gem holders. I also agree with you that this coin isn't so much an "error" as a difference of taste..

 

I still have no clue what you're looking for in this thread if jom's coin wasn't a good example. You do realize that ALL coins posted that people consider "errors" will boil down to a difference of their opinion to that of CAC (or whatever other 4th Party company you are thinking of). (shrug)hm

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jom

jom

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With regards to your SLQ, my guess is that the knee and the mark behind the head were likely what kept the coin from stickering; however, I tend to agree with you that I would have stickered it notwithstanding the issue. I have seen far worse in gem holders. I also agree with you that this coin isn't so much an "error" as a difference of taste..

 

For disclosure purposes: The mark behind the head was NOT the reason it didn't sticker according to JA. He told me on the phone it was the knee area. I really can't find anything in that area that keeps this coin from being a "B" MS65.

 

I posted a thread here awhile back showing another SLQ in a 65 holder than had far more flatness on the knee. I would be shocked if that coin ever gets a sticker. If it does I'll be...er...mad. lol

 

jom

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gmarguli

gmarguli

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I suppose I could show an SLQ that I really really REALLY disagree with JA on. But is that a mistake of CAC or rather just an difference of opinion? In fact, I'll lose the opinion battle given I'm up against JA AND it is my coin (ie me being biased).

 

When a person puts so much faith in the opinions of others, they no longer have the right to disagree with others opinions. JA is right and you are wrong. No discussion on it. It's a "C" coin

 

BTW, I'll give you $300 for that coin. It's clearly a example and that's what it's worth. You have my address, let me know when it ships. (thumbs u

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DirtyGoldMan

DirtyGoldMan

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Which other fourth party companies, if any, do you have in mind besides Eagle Eye?

 

One of the main problems with such exercises is the limitations of (even excellent) images in many/most cases. Another is the lack of objectivity and/or expertise on the part of the poster.

Is that your polite way for saying that this is an absurd idea for a thread? ;)

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jom

jom

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I suppose I could show an SLQ that I really really REALLY disagree with JA on. But is that a mistake of CAC or rather just an difference of opinion? In fact, I'll lose the opinion battle given I'm up against JA AND it is my coin (ie me being biased).

 

When a person puts so much faith in the opinions of others, they no longer have the right to disagree with others opinions. JA is right and you are wrong. No discussion on it. It's a "C" coin

 

BTW, I'll give you $300 for that coin. It's clearly a example and that's what it's worth. You have my address, let me know when it ships. (thumbs u

 

I'll ship it tomorrow if you promise to camp out at the Post Office until it arrives.

 

jom

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

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Which other fourth party companies, if any, do you have in mind besides Eagle Eye?

 

One of the main problems with such exercises is the limitations of (even excellent) images in many/most cases. Another is the lack of objectivity and/or expertise on the part of the poster.

Is that your polite way for saying that this is an absurd idea for a thread? ;)

 

I tried. I knew there would be limitations. You never know unless you try. There is still hope that this could materialize into something useful.

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Walkerfan

Walkerfan

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I suppose I could show an SLQ that I really really REALLY disagree with JA on. But is that a mistake of CAC or rather just an difference of opinion? In fact, I'll lose the opinion battle given I'm up against JA AND it is my coin (ie me being biased).

 

When a person puts so much faith in the opinions of others, they no longer have the right to disagree with others opinions. JA is right and you are wrong. No discussion on it. It's a "C" coin

 

BTW, I'll give you $300 for that coin. It's clearly a example and that's what it's worth. You have my address, let me know when it ships. (thumbs u

 

Yes---that is one gorgeous coin that would look nice in anyone's collection and people would be glad to take off your hands. ;)

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FishyOne

FishyOne

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No pics sorry. :P

 

I've submitted about 100 coins to CAC over the last 3 years. Roughly 2/3 of them stickered. I can honestly say there was only one coin that didn't sticker that totally shocked me. In fact, more often than not, coins I considered "borderline" did green bean. At least 5 or 6 of the 100 were very iffy and did pass.

 

As for pics, I sell off my non-CAC dreck quickly. :D The dreaded "Not CAC" is a kiss of death.

 

 

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jom

jom

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The dreaded "Not CAC" is a kiss of death.

 

This is all too true it seems in the coin market. I refer back to Greg's post.....

 

jom

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gmarguli

gmarguli

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The dreaded "Not CAC" is a kiss of death.

 

This is all too true it seems in the coin market. I refer back to Greg's post.....

 

jom

 

lol 99% of collectors don't even know what CAC is. Not having a CAC sticker on a coin is NOT the kiss of death. Don't be fooled by the fact that friends of, employees of, and partners with CAC post on the forums and try to convince you that not having a CAC sticker is bad. Their bias is unmistakeable.

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jom

jom

Posted
Posted
The dreaded "Not CAC" is a kiss of death.

 

This is all too true it seems in the coin market. I refer back to Greg's post.....

 

jom

 

lol 99% of collectors don't even know what CAC is. Not having a CAC sticker on a coin is NOT the kiss of death. Don't be fooled by the fact that friends of, employees of, and partners with CAC post on the forums and try to convince you that not having a CAC sticker is bad. Their bias is unmistakeable.

 

I don't know what percentage it might be but there are a great many collectors (usually of high-end material) that DO believe this. You might be right that the vast majority don't know or care about CAC but the vast majority of collectors may not know of TPGs either. Collectors of state quarters, modern US Mint stuff etc etc....

 

jom

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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Posted
I suppose I could show an SLQ that I really really REALLY disagree with JA on. But is that a mistake of CAC or rather just an difference of opinion? In fact, I'll lose the opinion battle given I'm up against JA AND it is my coin (ie me being biased).

 

25c-20p.jpg

 

Note: This is the only coin I've sent to them that I could not see his POV on why it did not "bean". It's PCGS graded MS65 and I believe it is at least a "B" coin....if not "A". IMO.

 

Is this what you are looking for?

 

jom

 

PS: That's a new verb the coin market has created: "bean". lol

 

Is that the one which was previously in a lower grade holder?

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gmarguli

gmarguli

Posted
Posted
I suppose I could show an SLQ that I really really REALLY disagree with JA on. But is that a mistake of CAC or rather just an difference of opinion? In fact, I'll lose the opinion battle given I'm up against JA AND it is my coin (ie me being biased).

 

25c-20p.jpg

 

Note: This is the only coin I've sent to them that I could not see his POV on why it did not "bean". It's PCGS graded MS65 and I believe it is at least a "B" coin....if not "A". IMO.

 

Is this what you are looking for?

 

jom

 

PS: That's a new verb the coin market has created: "bean". lol

 

Is that the one which was previously in a lower grade holder?

 

Doesn't matter (See: 1923-S Peace, Ex-Duckor). :whistle:

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
I suppose I could show an SLQ that I really really REALLY disagree with JA on. But is that a mistake of CAC or rather just an difference of opinion? In fact, I'll lose the opinion battle given I'm up against JA AND it is my coin (ie me being biased).

 

25c-20p.jpg

 

Note: This is the only coin I've sent to them that I could not see his POV on why it did not "bean". It's PCGS graded MS65 and I believe it is at least a "B" coin....if not "A". IMO.

 

Is this what you are looking for?

 

jom

 

PS: That's a new verb the coin market has created: "bean". lol

 

Is that the one which was previously in a lower grade holder?

 

Doesn't matter (See: 1923-S Peace, Ex-Duckor). :whistle:

 

It matters to me. I saw the Peace Dollar - it's not Ex-Duckor, by the way - in hand and thought it deserved the assigned grade. Based on the image, I don't like the Standing Liberty Quarter as an MS65, due to the flatness on the leg/knee.

 

Edited to add:

 

On second thought, you are correct - it doesn't matter how the quarter graded previously. But based on the image, though it looks gorgeous, I don't like it as an MS65.

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AnkurJ

AnkurJ

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I have a few that rejected that I don't feel should have. And I've seen some that passed that confused me.

 

But at the end if the day it makes no difference. If JA doesn't like it, that's fine with me. Many of us value his opinion which is why we submit to CAC. I have many coins that rejected in my collection. Knowing why they rejected is the point if submitting. Sometimes it's far more clear than other times.

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jom

jom

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On second thought, you are correct - it doesn't matter how the quarter graded previously. But based on the image, though it looks gorgeous, I don't like it as an MS65.

 

That's not what you told me at Long Beach when I showed the 20P to you.

 

The one you are referring to that was graded MS64 before (now MS65) was this 24S (top photo is mine):

 

25c-24s_Pin_zps28779047.jpg

 

Let's compare knees of the above 20P (left) and the 24S. There really is no flatness on the 20P that I can see.

 

Knees_zps9f5cecb1.jpg

 

Note: The 24S is NOT a coin that has anything to do with this thread. I'm just using it as an example and Mark mentioned it.

 

jom

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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On second thought, you are correct - it doesn't matter how the quarter graded previously. But based on the image, though it looks gorgeous, I don't like it as an MS65.

 

That's not what you told me at Long Beach when I showed the 20P to you.

 

The one you are referring to that was graded MS64 before (now MS65) was this 24S (top photo is mine):

 

25c-24s_Pin_zps28779047.jpg

 

Let's compare knees of the above 20P (left) and the 24S. There really is no flatness on the 20P that I can see.

 

Knees_zps9f5cecb1.jpg

 

Note: The 24S is NOT a coin that has anything to do with this thread. I'm just using it as an example and Mark mentioned it.

 

jom

 

Well, as I stated, my opinion today was based on the image which was posted. I am not at all surprised that I saw the/a coin differently in hand.

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jom

jom

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Posted
Well, as I stated, my opinion today was based on the image which was posted. I am not at all surprised that I saw the/a coin differently in hand.

 

Understood.

 

I would also like to add that I don't believe the 20P is a "slider"..not even remotely. The 24S however....

 

jom

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DirtyGoldMan

DirtyGoldMan

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My sticker rate is about 90% for coins that I expect to sticker. I will often throw in a low end coin simply to confirm my impression. The educational benefit of submitting to the CAC is tremendous, IMO, but not the be-all and end-all as some admirers make it out to be. Ultimately, I am the final arbiter whether a coin enters my collection, but I do find expert opinions, from various sources including the CAC to be invaluable. YMMV

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