Am I naive (or just plain dumb) about CAC and major auction companies?

[MarkFeld]

OK, there is NO WAY Heritage is unilaterally sending in coins to CAC. If I were a seller they had better ask me before they do such a thing. And I know for a fact I've never been asking after I consign a coin.

 

However, it is certainly possible that for some far more valuable pieces I'm sure they have asked the consigner if they wanted to submit it to CAC. Why not?

 

For EVERY coin? Hardly....

 

jom

 

Why would you be bothered if an auction house submitted your coins to CAC, without first asking?

[Nutmeg Coin]

I would agree that the $2000 and above coins CAC makes an auction difference, in my experience not so much in type gold under MS63, and type material in general in the under $500 field, so people need to qualify their pronouncements on auction company CAC submissions. If HA averages 20% CAC success, something I have heard with the sharpest numismatists in the business, that says something. So you are actually looking at 5X the actual submission fee for every coin that does sticker. Plus you have shipping and insurance to and from which can easily run another $60 shipping and $40 insurance.

[e1cnr]

OK, there is NO WAY Heritage is unilaterally sending in coins to CAC. If I were a seller they had better ask me before they do such a thing. And I know for a fact I've never been asking after I consign a coin.

 

However, it is certainly possible that for some far more valuable pieces I'm sure they have asked the consigner if they wanted to submit it to CAC. Why not?

 

For EVERY coin? Hardly....

 

jom

 

Why would you be bothered if an auction house submitted your coins to CAC, without first asking?

 

It would probably depend on who paid for it, if it was me and the coin did not CAC, I would be bothered (might be even if it did CAC).

[James_OldeTowne]

OK, there is NO WAY Heritage is unilaterally sending in coins to CAC. If I were a seller they had better ask me before they do such a thing. And I know for a fact I've never been asking after I consign a coin.

 

However, it is certainly possible that for some far more valuable pieces I'm sure they have asked the consigner if they wanted to submit it to CAC. Why not?

 

For EVERY coin? Hardly....

 

jom

Why would you be bothered if an auction house submitted your coins to CAC, without first asking?

I can't speak for jom, but one possibility is that there is triple the risk of the coin being lost in the mail, as it has now been shipped from consignor to auction house, from auction house to CAC, and from CAC back to the auction house.

[jom]

Why would you be bothered if an auction house submitted your coins to CAC, without first asking?

 

Pretty much what James said. Besides that do they really have the right to do that? Also, what's the harm in asking?

 

I think many here making pronouncements of 'fact' would be very surprised at what actually happens...

 

If you know something about all of this...please...by all means surprise us.

 

jom

[MarkFeld]

OK, there is NO WAY Heritage is unilaterally sending in coins to CAC. If I were a seller they had better ask me before they do such a thing. And I know for a fact I've never been asking after I consign a coin.

 

However, it is certainly possible that for some far more valuable pieces I'm sure they have asked the consigner if they wanted to submit it to CAC. Why not?

 

For EVERY coin? Hardly....

 

jom

 

Why would you be bothered if an auction house submitted your coins to CAC, without first asking?

 

It would probably depend on who paid for it, if it was me and the coin did not CAC, I would be bothered (might be even if it did CAC).

 

Of course, but I am quite confident that under the circumstances described, the consignor would not be billed.

[Kurtdog]

When I see an expensive coin that is raw that is being sold, I wonder why it isn't slabbed. Now, when I see an expensive slabbed coin without a CAC sticker that is being sold, I wonder why it doesn't have a CAC sticker. Does any one else think the same way?

No.

[Kurtdog]

I can't speak for jom, but one possibility is that there is triple the risk of the coin being lost in the mail, as has now been shipped from consignor to auction house, from auction house to CAC, and from CAC back to the auction house.

Hire a guy on-site.

 

 

[gmarguli]

OK, there is NO WAY Heritage is unilaterally sending in coins to CAC. If I were a seller they had better ask me before they do such a thing. And I know for a fact I've never been asking after I consign a coin.

 

However, it is certainly possible that for some far more valuable pieces I'm sure they have asked the consigner if they wanted to submit it to CAC. Why not?

 

For EVERY coin? Hardly....

 

jom

 

Why would you be bothered if an auction house submitted your coins to CAC, without first asking?

 

It would probably depend on who paid for it, if it was me and the coin did not CAC, I would be bothered (might be even if it did CAC).

 

Of course, but I am quite confident that under the circumstances described, the consignor would not be billed.

 

... directly. However, of course that consignor does ultimately pay for the CAC review (and any other cost incurring action) regardless of the outcome through commissions charged by the auction house.

[gmarguli]

If HA averages 20% CAC success, something I have heard with the sharpest numismatists in the business, that says something. So you are actually looking at 5X the actual submission fee for every coin that does sticker. Plus you have shipping and insurance to and from which can easily run another $60 shipping and $40 insurance.

 

Where did this 20% number come from? On an A/B/C scale, with CAC stickering A & B coins, you should expect that around 66% should sticker. A little higher if you factor in the prescreening by knowledgeable submitters.

 

At one point someone posted the percentage of coins that CAC stickers (based on talking with JA) and from what I can recall, it was significantly higher than 20%. Grabbing coins out of dealer cases blindfolded should result in a higher than 20% success rate.

[$ilverHawk]

Yesterday evening, I was chatting with an associate (collector), and he stated quite matter-of-factly that the major auction companies send all of their coins to CAC for evaluation. I argued that it couldn't possibly be true, as that would entail an enormous expense and risk just in shipping alone! Then he suggested that "well, maybe the obvious low-end coins don't go", but everything else does. And then he basically said I was a fool if I didn't think all the important coins in any auction haven't already been to CAC, and if it doesn't have a sticker, it probably doesn't deserve one.

 

Do you think this is true?? Should we assume that any coin in an auction without a sticker is a CAC reject?

 

(Please no jabs at CAC itself, as I'm just interested in the concept of everything in an auction being fourth-party-graded and the major overhead that this would seem to entail.)

 

Obviously, just about every U.S. coin in any auction is certified, so it's safe to assume that all raw coins get shipped out for certification....

 

James,

 

I'm not sure where to begin. First of all, your associate made a claim that could not be be supported by any data base, ie the major auction companies send all of their coins to CAC for evaluation.

 

What is your associates point? Did the CAC coins bring a higher return over non CAC coins? That info would be very interesting. Forgive me, but I doubt that your associate has actually done the homework to determine if there is a real difference in the auction prices vis a vis CAC non CAC.

 

Carl

[wheat'swheats]

If HA averages 20% CAC success, something I have heard with the sharpest numismatists in the business, that says something. So you are actually looking at 5X the actual submission fee for every coin that does sticker. Plus you have shipping and insurance to and from which can easily run another $60 shipping and $40 insurance.

 

Where did this 20% number come from? On an A/B/C scale, with CAC stickering A & B coins, you should expect that around 66% should sticker. A little higher if you factor in the prescreening by knowledgeable submitters.

 

At one point someone posted the percentage of coins that CAC stickers (based on talking with JA) and from what I can recall, it was significantly higher than 20%. Grabbing coins out of dealer cases blindfolded should result in a higher than 20% success rate.

40%

[Tradedollarnut]

Why would you be bothered if an auction house submitted your coins to CAC, without first asking?

 

Pretty much what James said. Besides that do they really have the right to do that? Also, what's the harm in asking?

 

I think many here making pronouncements of 'fact' would be very surprised at what actually happens...

 

If you know something about all of this...please...by all means surprise us.

 

jom

 

Nah. You all can't handle the truth!

[$ilverHawk]

OK, there is NO WAY Heritage is unilaterally sending in coins to CAC. If I were a seller they had better ask me before they do such a thing. And I know for a fact I've never been asking after I consign a coin.

 

However, it is certainly possible that for some far more valuable pieces I'm sure they have asked the consigner if they wanted to submit it to CAC. Why not?

 

For EVERY coin? Hardly....

 

jom

 

Why would you be bothered if an auction house submitted your coins to CAC, without first asking?

 

Because I submitted the coin as is, in the holder. I did not ask for a fourth party designation. I requested an auction posting based solely on the coin submitted without any additional fourth party designation. The auction house I submitted my coin/coins to should not alter the condition of my submittal.

 

Carl

[$ilverHawk]

OK, there is NO WAY Heritage is unilaterally sending in coins to CAC. If I were a seller they had better ask me before they do such a thing. And I know for a fact I've never been asking after I consign a coin.

 

However, it is certainly possible that for some far more valuable pieces I'm sure they have asked the consigner if they wanted to submit it to CAC. Why not?

 

For EVERY coin? Hardly....

 

jom

 

Why would you be bothered if an auction house submitted your coins to CAC, without first asking?

 

It would probably depend on who paid for it, if it was me and the coin did not CAC, I would be bothered (might be even if it did CAC).

 

Of course, but I am quite confident that under the circumstances described, the consignor would not be billed.

 

Billing is not the issue. Altering the condition of my submittal is an issue.

 

Carl

[jom]

Why would you be bothered if an auction house submitted your coins to CAC, without first asking?

 

Pretty much what James said. Besides that do they really have the right to do that? Also, what's the harm in asking?

 

I think many here making pronouncements of 'fact' would be very surprised at what actually happens...

 

If you know something about all of this...please...by all means surprise us.

 

jom

 

Nah. You all can't handle the truth!

 

 

jom

[michael]

When I see an expensive coin that is raw that is being sold, I wonder why it isn't slabbed. Now, when I see an expensive slabbed coin without a CAC sticker that is being sold, I wonder why it doesn't have a CAC sticker. Does any one else think the same way?

 

i think the same way;;;;;;; biased yes but it is food for thought and does help with evaulating the coin AND SOME LEVERAGE AS SUCH in negoiation

 

and yes i understand there are reasons why some great killer coins are raw and also some reasons why a killer graded slabbed pcgs/ngc coin aint stickered and there could be no reason at all as the coin(s) were never sent in

 

but of course in today's market where profit is the top overriding thing for coin placers be it retail wholesale auctions etc. (well okie 99% of coin placers) slabbing and cac does help and rarely does anyone leave money on the table and yes i suppose sometimes money is left on the table for whatever reason for other hyenias to fight over....................

 

 

auction companies DONT send all the slabbed coins into cac for stickering just select coins where cac will greatly benefit the coin/consigners demand it etc. but also the auction compaines

need to leave some room/ money on the table for bidding dealers as if everything is maxed out there will be fewer bidders

 

you need to leave a little meat on the bone maybe lots of meat?? to have a well balanced auction and to generate some excitment which might increase bidding and there could be great reasons NOT to send in fresh, undergraded coina in older holders and we have seen this before sometimes with huge results

so all in all there is a method to the madness

 

so are all great top quality coins in auction sent to cac HELL NO

[FishyOne]

I buy often from Heritage and before I bid on any better coin I call and ask if it has been to CAC and so far all that I have asked about have. I have even asked JA if the auction houses send all to CAC and was told that they have most likely seen all of the most important pieces. There is also a major dealer that I use that sends all of their major coins to CAC. So far that has meant anything over $250. According to them the % of $ that CAC adds to the coin exceeds the expense to have it stickered. one example I just saw a fairly common cent sell for $115, that same date cent in equal condition with a CAC sticker brought $175

wheat

 

You call CAC and are told it failed? Wow! That is a huge faux paux is true. If you are doing this and CAC is telling you that a coin failed, the integrity of CAC is compromised. I can't believe you can call them and get this information on "failed" coins.

 

Does it go like this?

 

Caller: "Has cert number 987654321 been reviewed by CAC?"

CAC: "Yes, cert number 987654321 has been reviewed."

Caller: "Thanks, I won't bid or make an offer on THAT coin. Bye"

CAC: "You are welcome!"

 

 

 

[Dudley the 1st]

I highly doubt that CAC would do that. I'm no lawyer, but I feel confident there would be some liability, if they conducted themselves so unprofessionally. Theres alot of poop being tossed about here!

[Tradedollarnut]

OK, there is NO WAY Heritage is unilaterally sending in coins to CAC. If I were a seller they had better ask me before they do such a thing. And I know for a fact I've never been asking after I consign a coin.

 

However, it is certainly possible that for some far more valuable pieces I'm sure they have asked the consigner if they wanted to submit it to CAC. Why not?

 

For EVERY coin? Hardly....

 

jom

 

Why would you be bothered if an auction house submitted your coins to CAC, without first asking?

 

Because I submitted the coin as is, in the holder. I did not ask for a fourth party designation. I requested an auction posting based solely on the coin submitted without any additional fourth party designation. The auction house I submitted my coin/coins to should not alter the condition of my submittal.

 

Carl

 

You did? In writing?

[MarkFeld]

OK, there is NO WAY Heritage is unilaterally sending in coins to CAC. If I were a seller they had better ask me before they do such a thing. And I know for a fact I've never been asking after I consign a coin.

 

However, it is certainly possible that for some far more valuable pieces I'm sure they have asked the consigner if they wanted to submit it to CAC. Why not?

 

For EVERY coin? Hardly....

 

jom

 

Why would you be bothered if an auction house submitted your coins to CAC, without first asking?

 

It would probably depend on who paid for it, if it was me and the coin did not CAC, I would be bothered (might be even if it did CAC).

 

Of course, but I am quite confident that under the circumstances described, the consignor would not be billed.

 

Billing is not the issue. Altering the condition of my submittal is an issue.

 

Carl

 

If the coin fails to sticker, the "condition" hasn't been altered. And if it stickers, the coin is likely to sell for more money (unless it is a one that might cause bidders to think gold sticker and it only gets a green one). Adding value to a consignment seems like a good thing for an auction house to do.

 

I take it that you and JOM would also be bothered if, without asking, an auction house resubmitted a coin to a grading company and the grade went up?

 

Don't get me wrong - I understand your point. It's just that, as a consignor, I wouldn't be bothered by it.

[MarkFeld]

I buy often from Heritage and before I bid on any better coin I call and ask if it has been to CAC and so far all that I have asked about have. I have even asked JA if the auction houses send all to CAC and was told that they have most likely seen all of the most important pieces. There is also a major dealer that I use that sends all of their major coins to CAC. So far that has meant anything over $250. According to them the % of $ that CAC adds to the coin exceeds the expense to have it stickered. one example I just saw a fairly common cent sell for $115, that same date cent in equal condition with a CAC sticker brought $175

wheat

 

You call CAC and are told it failed? Wow! That is a huge faux paux is true. If you are doing this and CAC is telling you that a coin failed, the integrity of CAC is compromised. I can't believe you can call them and get this information on "failed" coins.

 

Does it go like this?

 

Caller: "Has cert number 987654321 been reviewed by CAC?"

CAC: "Yes, cert number 987654321 has been reviewed."

Caller: "Thanks, I won't bid or make an offer on THAT coin. Bye"

CAC: "You are welcome!"

 

 

 

I think the poster was saying he asks the auction house (not CAC) about coins that the auction house has submitted to CAC?

[wheat'swheats]

I buy often from Heritage and before I bid on any better coin I call and ask if it has been to CAC and so far all that I have asked about have. I have even asked JA if the auction houses send all to CAC and was told that they have most likely seen all of the most important pieces. There is also a major dealer that I use that sends all of their major coins to CAC. So far that has meant anything over $250. According to them the % of $ that CAC adds to the coin exceeds the expense to have it stickered. one example I just saw a fairly common cent sell for $115, that same date cent in equal condition with a CAC sticker brought $175

wheat

 

You call CAC and are told it failed? Wow! That is a huge faux paux is true. If you are doing this and CAC is telling you that a coin failed, the integrity of CAC is compromised. I can't believe you can call them and get this information on "failed" coins.

 

Does it go like this?

 

Caller: "Has cert number 987654321 been reviewed by CAC?"

CAC: "Yes, cert number 987654321 has been reviewed."

Caller: "Thanks, I won't bid or make an offer on THAT coin. Bye"

CAC: "You are welcome!"

 

 

 

I think the poster was saying he asks the auction house (not CAC) about coins that the auction house has submitted to CAC?

Mr. Feld is correct and you need to learn to comprehend what you read. I will say it again so you will understand. I said that I call Heritage and ask if a coin has been sent to CAC. not call CAC and ask them. I then said that when I talked to john, I asked him if he thought the auction houses sent in all of their coins, and he said that he thought that CAC has seen most of the better coins. At no time did he identify any specific coin that has been sent in. (THOUGHT) being the operative word here.

[e1cnr]

Does doing these things delay what auction they get in?

[Dudley the 1st]

If any auction house is even capable of providing this information, I would think they really would not want to or in any sense legally obliged to. In many ways they would be doing their own business a huge disservice not to mention their consignors and also would have a major negative impact relating to CAC's bottom line.

 

[MarkFeld]

Does doing these things delay what auction they get in?

 

There should be no delay. Typically, the consignment deadline is approximately six weeks in advance of the sale date. And that is more than enough time to submit to CAC (or a grading company) and get the coins back.

[FishyOne]

I buy often from Heritage and before I bid on any better coin I call and ask if it has been to CAC and so far all that I have asked about have. I have even asked JA if the auction houses send all to CAC and was told that they have most likely seen all of the most important pieces. There is also a major dealer that I use that sends all of their major coins to CAC. So far that has meant anything over $250. According to them the % of $ that CAC adds to the coin exceeds the expense to have it stickered. one example I just saw a fairly common cent sell for $115, that same date cent in equal condition with a CAC sticker brought $175

wheat

 

You call CAC and are told it failed? Wow! That is a huge faux paux is true. If you are doing this and CAC is telling you that a coin failed, the integrity of CAC is compromised. I can't believe you can call them and get this information on "failed" coins.

 

Does it go like this?

 

Caller: "Has cert number 987654321 been reviewed by CAC?"

CAC: "Yes, cert number 987654321 has been reviewed."

Caller: "Thanks, I won't bid or make an offer on THAT coin. Bye"

CAC: "You are welcome!"

 

 

 

I think the poster was saying he asks the auction house (not CAC) about coins that the auction house has submitted to CAC?

Mr. Feld is correct and you need to learn to comprehend what you read. I will say it again so you will understand. I said that I call Heritage and ask if a coin has been sent to CAC. not call CAC and ask them. I then said that when I talked to john, I asked him if he thought the auction houses sent in all of their coins, and he said that he thought that CAC has seen most of the better coins. At no time did he identify any specific coin that has been sent in. (THOUGHT) being the operative word here.

 

Be clear and I'll understand.

 

Heritage has no way of knowing if a coin been to CAC unless they submitted and we know Heritage doesn't submit every coin to CAC.

 

I've bought many coins from Heritage that later got a Green Bean. At least 50 in the last 2 years.

 

 

[jom]

Don't get me wrong - I understand your point. It's just that, as a consignor, I wouldn't be bothered by it.

 

I understand your side as well. Sure it be very nice if someone was helpful and thought the coin could upgrade. However, in either case (send to CAC or re-submit for grading) I would still like to be asked/consulted. It is MY coin after all.

 

I just would like to point out I think Heritage does a great job and they've always done right for me buying or selling.

 

jom

 

 

[coinman_23885]

OK, there is NO WAY Heritage is unilaterally sending in coins to CAC. If I were a seller they had better ask me before they do such a thing. And I know for a fact I've never been asking after I consign a coin.

 

However, it is certainly possible that for some far more valuable pieces I'm sure they have asked the consigner if they wanted to submit it to CAC. Why not?

 

For EVERY coin? Hardly....

 

jom

 

Why would you be bothered if an auction house submitted your coins to CAC, without first asking?

 

Because I submitted the coin as is, in the holder. I did not ask for a fourth party designation. I requested an auction posting based solely on the coin submitted without any additional fourth party designation. The auction house I submitted my coin/coins to should not alter the condition of my submittal.

 

Carl

 

I don't understand this at all. If the coin does not sticker, there is no public record of this and no one will know any differently. There is no change in condition. Even if the coin does sticker, I do not see this as changing the condition at all. It is just adding a sticker, albeit a sticker which will likely result in a higher price realized. If the coin sells and the consignor does not like the sticker (or if the consignment is return to you), you could simply remove the aforesaid sticker? It does materially alter the condition of the consignment. Are you opposed to an auction house adding consignment stickers, tracking information, and other labels to a coin's holder?

[jom]

I don't understand this at all. If the coin does not sticker, there is no public record of this and no one will know any differently.

 

Evidently, according to mwheat's post above, you can call Heritage and ask them if they submitted the coin. That's seems to be about as public as it gets.

 

Then again, if Heritage sends all their coins in then clearly the ones not stickered got rejected....obviously.

 

jom