Is this the highest slab premium ever paid?

[Conder101]

My best estimate is they originally produced about 20K of them. But they were very unpopular at the time they were issued and once the white holders were introduced many of them were resubmitted for the new holders and then over the years since even more were send in for reholders, and then when the idea that the older holders were more conservatively graded took hold a lot more of them were sent back in or cracked and sent in. (No one cared about holder varieties at the time.) At one time NGC put out an estimate of 35 of them remaining. I think that is too low and right now I estimate it as a top figure of 200 remaining and I would not be surprised if it is less than that. With a $4K premium for the holder I would expect more of them to come out of hiding. This one that sold yesterday though is only the third one I have seen appear since the $3K premium was established a few years ago. That says something to me, that there aren't that many out there to flush out.

[nk1nk]

Any teletrade search experts out there? I know my memory is not what it used to be but I remember just over 5k for a common date morgan in a black slab sold on teletrade. I discussed the auction with a board member thru pm that I was able to find and the auction was on 11-12-11. If anyone can find that auction I would appreciate it.

 

Nick

[dimefreak]

Any teletrade search experts out there? I know my memory is not what it used to be but I remember just over 5k for a common date morgan in a black slab sold on teletrade. I discussed the auction with a board member thru pm that I was able to find and the auction was on 11-12-11. If anyone can find that auction I would appreciate it.

 

Nick

 

there wasnt an auction on 11-12-11.....maybe 11-13-11?

[nk1nk]

Any teletrade search experts out there? I know my memory is not what it used to be but I remember just over 5k for a common date morgan in a black slab sold on teletrade. I discussed the auction with a board member thru pm that I was able to find and the auction was on 11-12-11. If anyone can find that auction I would appreciate it.

 

Nick

 

there wasnt an auction on 11-12-11.....maybe 11-13-11?

 

Sorry about that, it was actually 12-11-11.

 

Nick

[dimefreak]

okay its easy to find but I dont shop there so I cant view the actual prices realized

[nk1nk]

Man my memory is horrible it sold for $2,500.00 and it was only a ms63.

 

Nick

[MJ]

The census on these slabs is 27. Grand total. They are obviously a collectable onto themselves. That San Diego just came along for the ride. Lot's of things are desirable for their packaging rather then what's on the inside.

 

MJ

 

Not sure I would call a thread on a forum making a roll call on a small sample of collectors a "census"

 

Feel free to add to it if you ever see one not on the census. Lane, is pretty diligent on this project. There are 28 verified. My guess is the number is between 40- 100. Conder's high guesstimate of 200 wouldn't shock me either. In the last 7 years I have not seen one in a dealers case that was for sale. Not my thing but I think they are pretty cool never the less.

 

MJ

[MJ]

The census on these slabs is 27. Grand total.

 

I'm not sure where you got this number from, but I'd be stunned if only 27 of these slabs still existed. I bet there are a quite a few of them out there owned by collectors or ex-collectors that don't know they are valuable.

 

The number is actually 28 that have been verified. Feel free to add to the list if you know of others. MJ

 

 

Date / Coin / Grade / Serial Number

1890 Liberty Nickel PR-63 121203-012

1892-P Barber Dime MS-62 121501-008

1939-P Mercury Dime PF-65 121390-013

1940-D Quarter MS-64 121689-005

1940-P Walking Liberty Half MS-65 121349-016

1941-P Walking Liberty Half MS-65 121251-019

1879-S Morgan Dollar MS-64 121699-023

1880-O Morgan Dollar MS-64 ?

1880-S Morgan Dollar MS-64 121194-010

1881-S Morgan Dollar MS-64 121699-021

1881-S Morgan Dollar MS-64 121624-024

1881-S Morgan Dollar MS-65 121036-010

1885-O Morgan Dollar MS-63 121746-011

1891-O Morgan Dollar MS-64 121501-001

1922-P Peace Dollar MS-63 121105-006

1923-P Peace Dollar MS-63 121699-011

1914-P $10 Indian MS-62 121276-008

1922-P Peace Dollar MS-62 121165-016

1924-P Saint Gaudens MS-62 121165-005

1924-P Saint Gaudens MS-62 121165-004

1924-P Saint Gaudens MS-62 121165-006

1927-P Saint Gaudens MS-62 121165-021

1936-D Cincinnati MS-65 121625-018

1936-P Norfolk MS-65 121036-011

1936-P Norfolk MS-65 121036-015

1937-D Oregon Trail MS-65 121356-015

1946-P Iowa MS-65 121446-009

1935-S San Diego MS-66 121356-016

[World Colonial]

I need some black paint and I can be rich!

 

I'm really sorry for the family's of the guys who are paying that high of the premium for plastic.

 

I do not see much (if any) difference in literally paying this type of premium for the plastic than the thousands or even tens of thousands of instances where buyers pay astronomical premiums for "conditional rarities" where the observable difference with the next lower grade is completely trivial. Neither make any sense at all.

 

Without commenting on how wise or unwise ether scenario is, I see a huge difference. In one case, a huge premium is being paid for the rarity of the holder, itself - apples. While in the other, the premium is due to the quality and/or appeal of the coin - oranges.

 

OK, I'll "bite" and pick-up on your fruit analogy. I believe both are from the same "tree" in the sense that the motives for collecting for both are very similar. Similar but actually, take many or even most out of the holder and I do not think it is an exaggeration to say that the difference between the holders covered in this thread is actually much greater than the coins inside of them.

If anyone wants to collect coins or holders like this, it is up to them. I am only pointing out what I consider to be the obvious. Most collectors are used to what exists now and probably do not think "why". What I describe below is my explanation on why these two and other similar practices exist.

 

The example covered in this thread is simply another creative method collectors have adopted and "investors" have rationalized to turn what is in actuality frequently rather mundane collecting into something they consider more challenging. Otherwise, due to modern communications (internet and TPG mainly), many US sets (and some foreign ones) could be completed in a single day, a week or at most a few months, even in a quality that most collectors in the past would find "good enough". Then what?

 

In actuality, there is no substantive difference between many coins that are one or even two MS grades apart, except in the PRICE, which is the primary reason that most people probably even care. Anticipating that many (or all) reading this post disagree with this comment, I’ll add that however much people care now is almost always directly proportional to the cost of the coin; not always, but usually. Few pay any attention to what is in actuality minutia on lower priced coins which to my knowledge was typical in the past (before TPG or maybe the 1970’s) for even most high grade specimens when they cost so much less.

 

If you read my post on the Jefferson FS nickels, what I am describing is exactly the lopsided sentiment outside the United States today which as far as I am concerned, is the far more logical and sensible approach from a hobby perspective. It is only the “investment” aspect which makes the combined illogical behavior of all US market participants logical at the individual level.

 

For the coins I am describing (and you know which ones they are better than I do as a full time US coins dealer), what exactly is the actual difference between two higher MS grades? A few “ticks” which frequently require magnification to even see them? Yes, this is a simplification but not unusual.

 

Aside from the money aspect, the most likely reason for the US coins where these practices matter most is that in actuality, these coins are so incredibly common as a generic coin or even in “high grades” that collectors collectively had to invent some way to create a collecting challenge that otherwise would not exist. Otherwise, they could just buy most of them in “BU” as they would have a generation or two ago (and outside the US today) and usually for a nominal price.

 

This is the primary reason that I see for the ultra-specialization with “conditional rarities”, special designation strikes, toned coins and to a lesser extent, die variety collecting. Collecting TPG holders (or Morgan dollars in GSA packaging) is simply an extension of these practices. The most recent (and completely ridiculous) approach I have seen is to collect (and pay exorbitant premiums) for the lowest grades. Yes, each collector has or may have their own preferences for following (and initially creating) these practices, but what I describe is the most logical explanation.

 

When the coin or series is actually scarce, I do not see that this collector will place an outsized emphasis on trivial differences in actual appearance, except if it is due to the financial aspects. Yes, they prefer better coins but they do not have the luxury of having the choices of the collectors of their far more common counterparts. It isn’t like this collector necessarily has the option of finding the ideal coin in the numerical grade they want with the corresponding strike and color, which is the sentiment I have seen described on this board hundreds if not thousands of time in the past. Finding the coin in “high grade”, decent collectible grade or sometimes in any grade is enough of a challenge on its own without inventing an artificial one.

 

Sorry for the long explanation, but it is just necessary to explain the reasoning behind my prior comments.

 

[mumu]

I dont think conditional rarity compares to slab collecting. Other than merely being on the list of things one can collect. A coins grade has been an integral part of the hobby and value for centuries. You cant just call everything the same. There is a purest list and then a fad list or whatever you want to call it. I think grade is defintely a purist criteria.

[World Colonial]

Yes, grade collecting has been integral to collecting presumably since inception, but nothing like it is today in the United States. I also agree with you that grading is a purist criteria but I also think that the extreme level (and yes it is extreme by any historical measure) to which it is taken today in the United States is reasonably explained by what I just described. Maybe not all of it, but generically.

 

On the slab collecting, I personally consider it absurd but not really anymore absurd than the other practices I just described as they exist in the United States. I do not see how anyone can know at this time whether it is or is not a fad since slabs did not exist until the 1980's. Maybe it is or it is not. There are plenty of other collectible fields where the packaging is also important and sometimes more important than the contents in them. I know this is not coin collecting but this is not an isolated practice.

 

[mumu]

I agree with the ridiculous part. But it is free market result. I understand conditional rarity much more than plastic. But that too has its ridiculous aspects. Mostly based in politics.

[coinman1794]

http://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/105048/1935-S-San-Diego-California-Pacific-International-Exposition-Half-Dollar-NGC-MS-65-CAC-Vintage-Black-NGC-Old-Holder

 

Many of the early NGC slabs (beyond the original black slab, which has always been popular) have become highly collectible in recent years. People are paying premiums for plastic like never before.

[James_OldeTowne]

Yes, grade collecting has been integral to collecting presumably since inception

I would not agree with that. I think collecting according to grade is a phenomenon that only started to take off during perhaps the 1960s, and soared in the 1980s through today. Before that, "grade" was important only to a fraction of collectors.

 

It's kind of like collecting by mintmark. Nobody cared about that little letter on the back until the 1940s, when coin boards began to leave an open spot for each mintmark for each year.

[World Colonial]

Yes, grade collecting has been integral to collecting presumably since inception

I would not agree with that. I think collecting according to grade is a phenomenon that only started to take off during perhaps the 1960s, and soared in the 1980s through today. Before that, "grade" was important only to a fraction of collectors.

 

It's kind of like collecting by mintmark. Nobody cared about that little letter on the back until the 1940s, when coin boards began to leave an open spot for each mintmark for each year.

 

Thanks, I was aware of the origin of mint mark collecting but not grading. I presumed that grading - of some sort - had existed for much longer than the date you provide.

 

The point of my last reply is that as long as TPG is the standard in the United States - and I do not see that changing - there is no reason why coin collectors should not also collect the holders.

 

If it is a fad as mumu indicated, the prices and premiums may decline but I do not see any reason why collectors will no longer want them.

[mommam17]

If I remember correctly, when I started collecting commems in the late 60's, they were graded uncirculated or circulated. The old gruff coin dealer use to tell me, "Kid, you gotta buy uncs."