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Would this make you suspicious ?

Started by TonerGuy,

20 posts in this topic

TonerGuy

TonerGuy

Posted
Posted

It makes me suspicious... I was about to bid but...

 

Here's a toned 72-S Silver PCGS MS68 Ike thats getting bid up...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350717813615?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

 

But I always look at a sellers previous sales before bidding...

 

Here's the sellers feedback...

 

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=kpl&&_trksid=p2047675.l2560&rt=nc&iid=350717813615&sspagename=VIP:feedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

 

He had a PCGS MS68 74-S Silver Ike that sold with very similar toning on Feb 14th...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1974-S-ike-Eisenhower-Dollar-Silver-MS68-Pcgs-Rainbow-Toning-/221189334948

 

and here's a raw 76-D with outrageous colors...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1976-D-Eisenhower-Dollar-Ike-Beautiful-Toned-Rainbow-Toning-/350652464244?nma=true&si=r0Crze80VMJtTRh%252BBeqv2wQufWs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

and 64-D Kennedy with similar toning to the Ikes...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-D-Kennedy-Half-Dollar-Rainbow-Toned-Beautiful-Toning-/221157633735

 

There seem to be other toned proof Ikes that he sold in the past but the photos have been removed...

 

and he's from Salt Lake City Utah... for those of you that know the history of the Peacock Ikes...

 

Makes me go hmmmmm....

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kryptonitecomics

kryptonitecomics

Posted
Posted

The first coin (1972-S) doesn't look suspicious nor does the price look out of line considering it's an MS68 so I think its worth the current bid. With that said I do not think one can arbitrarily discount what you are seeing with the other coins sold.

 

The graded Ikes by themselves don't look funny...they look legit and may in fact be but seeing the other coins included should cause one to pause and reflect. Just because the seller is selling some AT coins doesn't mean everything he sells is AT...I should know as I get consignments with AT coins all the time and I sell them but the big difference is if I think for a second the color is questionable then I state that I believe the coin is AT in the listing which this seller is not....that's a big red flag. (tsk)

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jom

jom

Posted
Posted
I'm surprised PCGS slabbed them.

 

Why? I'm pretty sure the 72S and 74S are legit. OR do you think PCGS has been more inclined to reject them lately?

 

jom

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nk1nk

nk1nk

Posted
Posted

I agree with Shane, just because the seller sells AT coins doesn't mean his slabbed coins are guilty by association. Having said that I can understand the hesitation.

 

Also please fill me in on the connection between Utah and peacock Ikes.

 

I was born, raised, and still live in the great state of Utah and while some may find anything associated with Utah as suspicious (e1cnr) I couldn't disagree more.

 

Nick

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gmarguli

gmarguli

Posted
Posted
I'm surprised PCGS slabbed them.

 

Why? I'm pretty sure the 72S and 74S are legit. OR do you think PCGS has been more inclined to reject them lately?

 

jom

 

The 72 from 7-10 on reverse looks "dusted".

 

The 74, look under the C in America. Look at that rapid color change.

 

These just don't look right to me. My guess would be someone greatly sped up the toning process on these.

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kryptonitecomics

kryptonitecomics

Posted
Posted

The 72 from 7-10 on reverse looks "dusted".

 

The 74, look under the C in America. Look at that rapid color change.

 

These just don't look right to me. My guess would be someone greatly sped up the toning process on these.

 

 

That may indeed be the case but I still think the coins are market acceptable even if by chance they had help..... hm

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TonerGuy

TonerGuy

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Posted

Interesting that the seller's 76-D has some similarities in color to the 72-D (which was also in a PCGS Secure slab) that was posted by coinsarefun in this thread...

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6404896&fpart=1

 

Here's PCGS's story on the Peacock Ikes...

 

http://www.pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-Plans-Finest-Known-Ike-Dollars-Display-At-2006-Fun

 

And here is some information about the Peacock Ike Hoard from ATS from 11 years ago... Typetone posted this...

 

Here is the thread -> http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=30&threadid=146283&STARTPAGE=1

 

This will explain the connection to Salt Lake City, Utah...

 

"Bob Halsted is one of the great PKOK collectors. He wrote an article on the subject in the Eisenhower Dollar Guide Book. One of his hypotheses is that a bank in Salt Lake City had a promotion in the 1970s wherin they gave an IKE dollar housed in a cardboard holder in a plastic case to new depositors. The IKEs toned from the cardboard, thus the PKOKs. This theory is based on the fact that he bought a raw PKOK in a holder from the bank.

 

I traced down the bank who did the promotion through several ownership changes. It is now a SLC branch of Washington Mutual. Problem is, the head of marketing at the bank says they never put IKEs in the holders. They only used Morgans. And, as far as I know we don't have any PKOK toned Morgans!! He certainly was sure they did not use any proof IKEs, and we do have proof IKE PKOKs. He named an employeee who was in charge of the program. Call him Mr. XXX. Mr. XXX is now retired. I tried to talk to Mr. XXX, but the marketing head said he would not agree to talk to me. The marketing head says they do not have any more of the coins in the bank vault.

 

The next thread was distribution. Bob Halsted got most of his PKOKs through IKE dealer Jim Barlow. Barlow claims to have handled many many PKOKs. Barlow says he got them from a certain dealer in Salt Lake City. Halsted also says he got some direct from the same Salt Lake City dealer. PKOKs also appeared in California coins shows and auctions. So, I contacted the Salt Lake City dealer. The dealer claims to have handled all or most of the known PKOKs. He claims to have sold most of them to Barlow, or Halsted or in various California shows. So far the story holds.

 

I asked the dealer where he got the PKOKs and if he has any more to sell. He said he got them all from one collector who periodically brings a batch in to sell. He does not identify the name of the collector. Call him Mr. YYY. He had none to sell the last time I asked.

 

Those are the facts as I know them. Now my theory. Mr XXX and Mr YYY are the same person. When the bank discontinued their Morgan promotion in the 1970s, they probably disposed of the remaining unused holders. Mr. XXX probably got to keep them. He then put IKEs and maybe some other coins in the holders. Low and behold, over the years, they developed the distinctive toning, which he has been selling as he needs the money. A few he sold in the bank holders, most he just sold raw. To me the theory makes sense, Mr XXX was probably a knowledgeable collector to get the bank assignment to run the program in the first place. As a collector he probably was happy to buy or take the extra holders. He probably had a decent eye for nice IKEs. He also would have later recognized the value of the toned pieces, though frankly the value of the original raw sales were far below current prices. So what happened to the Morgans? My view is that it is the copper/nickel in the IKEs which is responsible for the PKOK toning. All IKEs whether silver ms, silver proof, c/n proof, or c/n ms have significant amounts of C/N. Morgans don't and thus no PKOK toned Morgan examples. To me it makes sense. Clearly, the most vibrant PKOKs are the all C/N pieces.

 

An alternate theory is that Mr YYY and Mr XXX are different people. In this alternative Mr YYY bought the IKEs and toned them. AT, or in cardboard holders, who knows, or really cares. In this theory, the few PKOKs that have appeared in bank holders might be explaned by Mr. YYY having a few. Maybe from opening an account. Or, maybe he got ahold of a bunch of the holders and placed the IKEs in them much like Mr. XXX might have. Personally, I think the bank of other cardboard holders created the PKOK toning though interacting with the C/N.

 

That's what I know and guess. Whatever you think, there can be do doubt that the PKOK IKEs are magnificant, beautiful pieces and in my view a national treasure. I wish there were a way to put a display together, as I think that would highlight the existense of the numismatic ultra-rarities.

 

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jom

jom

Posted
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All I know about the PKOK Ike's is that there was a guy who used to set up a table at the Long Beach show who had a bunch of obviously colored coins. I remember him because the way he dressed he looked like a biker...Hell's Angels kind of thing. I found out years later that was the same guy who...er...made the PKOKs.

 

I also remember Jim Barlow as he was a guy who I used to buy raw Kennedys from...I bought from him mostly in 1993. Even though I got less interested in moderns the next few years I still received Jim's newsletter/inventory list. In 1995 or 96 he started advertising these PKOKs. At the time I made no connection whatsoever to these and that Biker dude at the LB show.

 

jom

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michael

michael

Posted
Posted

market acceptable in the pcgs holders to many buyers

and this is a good thing if you are the end user buyer/reseller with customers and are happy with your purchase

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coinsarefun

coinsarefun

Posted
Posted

IMO........I have noticed that every few years here and ATS the NT vs AT debate gets hot and heavy. This year it's been directed at Ike's, ASE's and a few other moderns(ultra moderns)

 

Remember Ike's have been in all kids of different holders for years now 35-40 years, they will start toning and you may have blurbs coming to market as they fetch good money. This is a fact.

 

I think as time goes by you will see IKEs and ASE's with even wilder toning as they are out there long enough to really start getting some nice toning.

 

 

 

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TonerGuy

TonerGuy

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IMO........I have noticed that every few years here and ATS the NT vs AT debate gets hot and heavy. This year it's been directed at Ike's, ASE's and a few other moderns(ultra moderns)

 

Remember Ike's have been in all kids of different holders for years now 35-40 years, they will start toning and you may have blurbs coming to market as they fetch good money. This is a fact.

 

I think as time goes by you will see IKEs and ASE's with even wilder toning as they are out there long enough to really start getting some nice toning.

 

 

 

Ive actually been watching/researching the toned Ike market for more than 10 yrs. I have seen every conceivable after market holder they come in... though I have never seen the "peacock hoard bank cardboard holders."

 

If we are going to see more toned Ikes there are likely going to come from primarily Dansco albums. Ive seen Danscos do a nice job with golds, greens, blues and sometimes pinks.

 

Ive also seen the 20th Century Coin cardboard holders in frames add some nice toning to clad Ikes...

 

There are also some in cardboard holders like this...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-D-Eisenhower-IKE-Dollar-Double-Talons-Ikes-Left-Temple-Mint-Error-Coin-/151001063606?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item23285d60b6

 

and this ...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1978-Eisenhower-Dollar-Coin-Memorial-Display-/130851384126?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item1e7759ab3e

 

and these which produce nice toning...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1978D-ike-dollar-ms-in-louis-rukeyser-holder-/321075880913?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item4ac19d23d1

 

and sometimes whole collections come in these..

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/21-EISENHOWER-COINS-DOLLARS-1971-78-PHILADELPHIA-DENVER-SAN-FRANCISCO-MINTS-/330875364670?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item4d09b5653e

 

Of course the govt browns and blue Ikes do tone coins, especially the proof 74-S. But not wild colors... Blues and some deep reds.

 

I have never seen a toned Ike with the colors and patterns that I have recently seen in a lot of PCGS Secure holders...

 

Im not saying the coins are AT. I would just like to know what aftermarket holder produces these particular patterns and colors on a coin.

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Conder101

Conder101

Posted
Posted
So what happened to the Morgans? My view is that it is the copper/nickel in the IKEs which is responsible for the PKOK toning. All IKEs whether silver ms, silver proof, c/n proof, or c/n ms have significant amounts of C/N. Morgans don't and thus no PKOK toned Morgan examples. To me it makes sense. Clearly, the most vibrant PKOKs are the all C/N pieces.

The silver Ikes have NO C/N Just silver and copper.

 

Another explanation for the PKOK Ike in the bank holder is that if they were AT'd the person who did so may have put one in one if the bank holders to create a "plausible" story for the source of the toned coins.

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