Determining Fake Morgan Dollars

[J3_Dog]

I was wondering how best to determine a FAKE Morgan Dollar. Can the weight be off or does it need to be spot on?

Key Points of a Fake (especially the 1895 Morgan Proof)

Thanks All For Responding.....

Regards Jim

[MarkFeld]

The weight can be off. Many counterfeits aren't even made out of silver.

 

The details can be lacking - a counterfeit can look uncirculated due to the lack of wear, yet exhibit areas of weakness that don't look right for a genuine uncirculated example.

 

Mint-marks can be in the wrong location and/or be of the wrong type.

 

The date can fail to match that seen on genuine examples.

 

The luster can be off/look too subdued/dead.

 

Regarding your question about 1895 Proofs coins - I have seen many good or excellent counterfeit business strike silver dollars, but I have yet to see a well made counterfeit of a Proof (of any date). So that really shouldn't be an issue.

 

You are far more likely to see a business strike branch mint 1895 dollar with a removed mint-mark than you are a counterfeit Proof.

[cpm9ball]

To add to what Mark said, I recall an interview Coin World ran on one of the biggest counterfeiters in Shanghai, and he said that they can "age" a coin to make it appear circulated, so even key dates and semi-key dates in the VF-AU range are suspect.

 

The best thing you can do to protect yourself is learn the markers and strike characteristics for any of the pricier coins. You can even search VAMWorld for typical varieties of any such coin.

 

Chris

[J3_Dog]

The one I am interested in, has no Mintmark. I've just seen two photos of the coin (front & back)

It does not look proofish, but more like an ms coin, again... just from the poor photos I've seen. He states that the coin looks lots better in hand.

I am going to look at it in hand tomorrow. I know the true weight is supposed to be 26.73 so when I asked he told me the weight fluctuated from 25.00 to a little over 26.00 grams on an old scale he has.

I will try to get the photos he sent me to upload.

Oh..... Supposedly passed down from the family also, but we all know how that goes.

I would be more cautious of it being FAKE, than if it's been dipped or cleaned, and is an original coin.

Thanks Jim

[J3_Dog]

Hope these work.

 

Jim

[MarkFeld]

Hope these work.

 

Jim

 

Counterfeit.

[comicdonna]

Can you point out what to look for on this coin, Mark?

[MarkFeld]

Can you point out what to look for on this coin, Mark?

 

It immediately hit me as looking wrong. In trying to articulate why, I would say that the texture of the surfaces looks off. And that other than a stain or two, the surfaces look too uniform, as well as lifeless. I wonder whether the coin is even made of silver.

[comicdonna]

Can you point out what to look for on this coin, Mark?

 

It immediately hit me as looking wrong. In trying to articulate why, I would say that the texture of the surfaces looks off. And that other than a stain or two, the surfaces look too uniform, as well as lifeless. I wonder whether the coin is even made of silver.

Thanks! (thumbs u

[MarkFeld]

Can you point out what to look for on this coin, Mark?

 

It immediately hit me as looking wrong. In trying to articulate why, I would say that the texture of the surfaces looks off. And that other than a stain or two, the surfaces look too uniform, as well as lifeless. I wonder whether the coin is even made of silver.

Thanks! (thumbs u

 

You're welcome and I hope that other posters will give you better/more specific reasons.

 

Typically, when I see a counterfeit, something in my brain registers that the picture is wrong (compared to what a genuine one should look like), though often, I don't know precisely why. In other words, I'm processing visual information and making comparisons to genuine coins, but I can't tell you how that process works, because I don't understand it.

[J3_Dog]

Mark, Chris and everyone else. I really appreciate this information. I plan on getting some better photos tomorrow, taking my scales, and perhaps a magnet.

Anyone Else? Please feel free to comment. Gonna try to make the photos bigger.

Thanks Jim

[e1cnr]

5 in date no good and does look more business AU than proof

[MarkFeld]

5 in date no good and does look more business AU than proof

 

It looks nothing like a Proof. And, as I mentioned previously, I don't typically see counterfeit examples of Proof issues.

 

My comments about this coin pertained to it not looking correct for a business strike, either. And that is, in case someone thinks they have located the first genuine business strike 1895 Dollar to have escaped melting.

[comicdonna]

[MarkFeld]

I'm pretty anxious about tomorrow even if it turns out to be a fake. Initially this man told me it was a high grade MS Coin. He also said that it had no marks on it other than the blackish spots. Also that there looked to be some sort of film on it especially on the back. Supposedly, it was handed down through the family and he lives about 20 mi. from me.

As stated... If it is original, it would be unbelievable. I would send it to NCS immediately and then to NGC even if it comes back genuine, would be awesome, but of course that would be putting the cart before the horse, so to speak.

Anyway, I'm focused on the weight, looks, and luster tomorrow. I'm just not very knowledgeable about fakes, but I'm hoping the small loop I just bought will help me out.

Nothing Ventured, Nothing Gained........ Thanks All

Jim

 

Jim, the coin is counterfeit, regardless of what the owner says or what both of you want to believe. You are hoping and wishing and dreaming, but the coin is essentially worthless.

[J3_Dog]

Has anyone noticed the difference on the Wings. I just noticed this because of the great info that you guys provide.

Jim

[J3_Dog]

Mark,

I appreciate you're honesty and also Thanks to the others who commented. I am learning everyday here. "I come here daily".

I especially like reading the (Guess The Grade Section) and do so everyday also. In my mind, I have gotten lots better at grading a coin by looks, because of the intelligient people on here. I've been collecting coins for about 6 years now and did learn a lot by buying raw junk coins when I started. Now I mainly buy Mint Products or Graded NGC or PCGS Coins.

I've also learned that there are a lot of honest, great, knowledgable, people on here and make notes on Certain Dealers and Great Photographers.

I've been a member here since 11/11. I've been a member with NGC but so far have only had a few coins graded with them.

I have also just purchased (Numismatic Photography) by MG, 2nd Ed. (100 Greatest Coins) by JG Third Ed. and (CC Morgan Dollars) by Crum/Ungar/Oxman 2nd Ed.

I wouldn't have bought these books,hadn't been for the informative information on these boards.

Again..... Thanks Everyone For The Help! Jim

[e1cnr]

Where you find this guy? If it iis craigslist, they maybe setting you up just to steal whatever you have with you (or worse).

[jpcienkus]

The slope angle of the nose also looks wrong to me. Too vertical.

[jpcienkus]

Has anyone noticed the difference on the Wings. I just noticed this because of the great info that you guys provide.

Jim

 

While the "right" wing looks well defined, the "left" wing ("as you look at the coin") doesn't have the same detail. It's missing the band of feathers on the "left" that the "right" has well defined. Kind of odd since both are the same height off the coin. Maybe they are there, but your picture doesn't show them.

[messydesk]

Fake. Fake. Fake.

 

The first thing that jumped out at me is the date. It just looks wrong. The second thing that jumped out at me is the date. 1895 is only known in proof, and this doesn't even look right for a business strike. In hand, it will probably have more little things wrong with it. If you want to get any benefit out of this transaction, don't buy this fake, see if you can get pictures of anything else he has for sale, and if this isn't an isolated fake, turn him in for selling counterfeits.

[Conder101]

Typically, when I see a counterfeit, something in my brain registers that the picture is wrong (compared to what a genuine one should look like), though often, I don't know precisely why

This is very true and is actually one very common way of spotting fakes. Once you have seriously studied a lot of genuine coins, if a fake comes along something in you mind just immediately starts screaming that something is WRONG. Without a lot more in depth study of the coin you may not be able to put your finger on exactly what is wrong, but that warning voice tells you you had better look a lot closer and with skepticism.

[J3_Dog]

e1cnr,

Yes... It was a local CL'er. I've decided not to go and look at it.

Thanks Jim

[J3_Dog]

I agree.... These are the photos HE took with his phone

 

Thanks Jim

[jimjum12]

e1cnr,

Yes... It was a local CL'er. I've decided not to go and look at it.

Thanks Jim

 

.....also.....It's never a good idea to meet the seller of a big ticket item on their terms or at their place. They'll be expecting you to have a large sum ......risky. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[J3_Dog]

Yes... I definetly need lots more experience looking at Morgans. I will probably get a microscope so that I can see better. The cheap loops I bought (around 20 bucks) don't seem to do it for me.

My eyes are bad and I'm in my mid 50's.

[J3_Dog]

JP,

Thanks so Much. All this helps me in the future.

 

JIm

[J3_Dog]

Messydesk,

This is the only coin he has. I told him it was fake. He has no camera (a neighbor took the photo. He also states he knows nothing about computers. He said he was going to have a daughter come by and take other photos and then repost them. I again told him it was fake and offered $1.00 for the coin. I would buy it for that for future references

Thanks Jim

[J3_Dog]

Conder,

Thank You Very Much. Pretty much the same thing Mark said.

Thanks A Bunch....

Jim

[J3_Dog]

Very Good Info..... Thanks Jimbo

 

Jim