Call me dumb, but what is CAC

[AnkurJ]

You're exactly right MJ. That is one reason John started CAC, to PROTECT and educate collectors from grade flation and doctored coins.

 

Sadly both have become so prevelant, we need a service to protect us. CAC provides that protection.

[stman]

That is one reason John started CAC, to PROTECT and educate collectors from grade flation and doctored coins.

 

 

 

I'm glad you said "one reason" as there are certainly many more reasons.

[Mozin]

Auction Prices Realized of coins stickered by CAC certainly show that the CAC approval is worth a significant amount of money. Those of us that do not have eyes to view their auction lot wants in hand, feel much more confident with viewing the pictures of auction lots that have the CAC sticker.

 

CAC manages to find coin problems even after well educated eyes fail to see problems with the coin in hand. Even a tiny tiny cleaning spot, or windowsill toning means a CAC reject.

[gmarguli]

Auction Prices Realized of coins stickered by CAC certainly show that the CAC approval is worth a significant amount of money.

 

You are assuming that these coins would have brought significantly less without the sticker. That there are no in-person buyers who can tell the coin is nice for the grade.

 

CAC manages to find coin problems even after well educated eyes fail to see problems with the coin in hand. Even a tiny tiny cleaning spot, or windowsill toning means a CAC reject.

 

What is to say that the TPG didn't see the exact same thing, but felt it was OK for the grade assigned? I see carbon spots on slabbed coins all the time. I hate carbon spots. I reject all of these coins for purchase. I must be better than the TPG as they clearly missed these spots and still holdered the coins.

[AnkurJ]

That is one reason John started CAC, to PROTECT and educate collectors from grade flation and doctored coins.

 

 

 

I'm glad you said "one reason" as there are certainly many more reasons.

 

Of course there are. It is a business after all.

[Buffalo Head]

So ya purchase a coin, say MS-66 graded by pcgs. Later you find out the seller has submitted this coin to CAC and it failed to sticker. Did ya make a bad deal? Should you be mad at the seller for not telling you it failed to sticker if he's the one that submitted it to CAC and it failed?

[MarkFeld]

So ya purchase a coin, say MS-66 graded by pcgs. Later you find out the seller has submitted this coin to CAC and it failed to sticker. Did ya make a bad deal? Should you be mad at the seller for not telling you it failed to sticker if he's the one that submitted it to CAC and it failed?

 

Not unless you asked and were lied to.

[stman]

So ya purchase a coin, say MS-66 graded by pcgs. Later you find out the seller has submitted this coin to CAC and it failed to sticker. Did ya make a bad deal? Should you be mad at the seller for not telling you it failed to sticker if he's the one that submitted it to CAC and it failed?

 

 

I think there are certain things CAC likes, and doesn't like. Same for any TPG and for that matter anybody else. CAC puts their mark (a sticker) on the coin basically saying they would probably buy it. Some say they buy "sight unseen" but they have indeed seen it and put their mark on it. BTW..... "Mark" does not equal Mark Feld.

[newprepper]

Auction Prices Realized of coins stickered by CAC certainly show that the CAC approval is worth a significant amount of money. Those of us that do not have eyes to view their auction lot wants in hand, feel much more confident with viewing the pictures of auction lots that have the CAC sticker.

 

CAC manages to find coin problems even after well educated eyes fail to see problems with the coin in hand. Even a tiny tiny cleaning spot, or windowsill toning means a CAC reject.

 

Then should the coin actually have a details grade in those cases?

[jom]

I think there are certain things CAC likes, and doesn't like.

 

True...and one of those things they seem to emphasize are "surfaces". I'm sure there are other things but this one I'm pretty sure is a big deal to them. And, yes, I know this as most of my rejected coins have been for this reason.

 

jom

[coinman_23885]

Do I see a reason that raw coins trade for less? Yes. In my opinion, the TPG's provide a far more valuable, far more comprehensive service that is worth the price of the service and worth the premium. The TPG's grade the coin, authenticate the coin, note problems, and encase it in a presentable holder. CAC just grades the graders. It seems kind of pointless...

 

I just don't understand why CAC is necessary, and why its so popular. Are collectors in general just that uncomfortable with grading coins for themselves?

 

I disagree with you. CAC does more than merely grade and screen coins; it effectively offers its own guarantee which is much broader than any third party grading guarantee that I have read. In addition to buying back their errors, CAC will make sight unseen bids for the coins they sticker. These are often strong bids. To me this is extra insurance and is worth the small premium. I do not think that it is that collectors cannot grade for themselves; I think it is the knowledge and comfort knowing that they have a seller if they need to unload the coin quickly at a fair price. The same is not true for non-CAC coins.

 

With this said, your posts seem to raise two points: (1) whether you would pay a premium for coins in auctions that are already CAC approved; and (2) whether the original CAC "grading" fee is worth it. The latter is a bargain, and I think CAC coins deserve a small premium in the market; however, I will agree with you that it only carries a limited value and the coin's individual merits will carry the sale (if I am the buyer). I wouldn't pay a 20% or larger premium for a CAC sticker alone when properly graded coins can be had for less (and are readily available in the market).

[jom]

With this said, your posts seem to raise two points: (1) whether you would pay a premium for coins in auctions that are already CAC approved; and (2) whether the original CAC "grading" fee is worth it. The latter is a bargain, and I think CAC coins deserve a small premium in the market; however, I will agree with you that it only carries a limited value and the coin's individual merits will carry the sale (if I am the buyer). I wouldn't pay a 20% or larger premium for a CAC sticker alone when properly graded coins can be had for less (and are readily available in the market).

 

I agree here 100% on both counts. On the former, whether I (personally) pay a 20% premium (or whatever) on a coin will have far more to do with the coin itself than the sticker.

 

jom

[mumu]

The market is not always right. Just because something is popular doesnt mean its good.

 

That being said my complaint with CAC has always been that they dont offer enough inforamtion. Look at a coin, throw a sticker on it, or not, and out the door it goes. The rebuttle has been that I can call JA any time and get an explanation. Maybe in 1950 that was fine. But in this day an age there should be a database. And if everyone did this then JA would have to stop placing stickers and concentrate on answering phones. Even if the data is a little line or 2 about the coin that at least lets you know, in words, what exactly you paid for. The premium CAC coins bring, keeping in mind the caveat in my first line, demands that more than just a mysterious sticker is or isnt on the coin. Gold stickers reveal this problem more than anything. Is the coin half a point better? Is it a full point? Is it 2 points? Way too much money is being moved around with very little information about what the gold sticker is saying about a particular coin. I realize its a cash cow for many in the loop though so no one with any pull will step up and back that idea. Rejections should have the same available data on them.

 

And THAT being said it may be too late to implement any of that now. So many coins thrown out there with just the sticker and no details. Hard to change course now.

[gmarguli]

I disagree with you. CAC does more than merely grade and screen coins; it effectively offers its own guarantee which is much broader than any third party grading guarantee that I have read. In addition to buying back their errors, CAC will make sight unseen bids for the coins they sticker. These are often strong bids. To me this is extra insurance and is worth the small premium.

 

How can anyone possible believe they make sight unseen bids for coins that they have stickered? They already saw the coins in order to sticker them.

 

As for their "broad" guarantee, it basically involves at best buying the coin from you at a small premium over generic, scratching their sticker off, and reselling it for generic money. Not exactly a lot of liability there.

[$ilverHawk]

I disagree with you. CAC does more than merely grade and screen coins; it effectively offers its own guarantee which is much broader than any third party grading guarantee that I have read. In addition to buying back their errors, CAC will make sight unseen bids for the coins they sticker. These are often strong bids. To me this is extra insurance and is worth the small premium.

 

How can anyone possible believe they make sight unseen bids for coins that they have stickered? They already saw the coins in order to sticker them.

 

As for their "broad" guarantee, it basically involves at best buying the coin from you at a small premium over generic, scratching their sticker off, and reselling it for generic money. Not exactly a lot of liability there.

 

I agree. Of course the bid is not sight unseen if CAC has stickered a coin.

 

Exactly how have you determined what CAC pays for their stickered coins? Do you have any evidence at all of CAC removing their stickers and selling coins into the "generic" marketplace? Very strong accusations. Perhaps you have some personal experience?.

 

I don't have any experience in reselling coins to CAC. Do you?

 

Carl

[coinman_23885]

I disagree with you. CAC does more than merely grade and screen coins; it effectively offers its own guarantee which is much broader than any third party grading guarantee that I have read. In addition to buying back their errors, CAC will make sight unseen bids for the coins they sticker. These are often strong bids. To me this is extra insurance and is worth the small premium.

 

How can anyone possible believe they make sight unseen bids for coins that they have stickered? They already saw the coins in order to sticker them.

 

As for their "broad" guarantee, it basically involves at best buying the coin from you at a small premium over generic, scratching their sticker off, and reselling it for generic money. Not exactly a lot of liability there.

 

Coins can and do change in their holders; thus, it is still somewhat sight unseen. It is sight unseen in its state at the moment of purchase. I stand by that comment. Even I admitted limitations to their buyback program, but frankly, it is still better than the guarantee of the TPGs.

[MarkFeld]

I disagree with you. CAC does more than merely grade and screen coins; it effectively offers its own guarantee which is much broader than any third party grading guarantee that I have read. In addition to buying back their errors, CAC will make sight unseen bids for the coins they sticker. These are often strong bids. To me this is extra insurance and is worth the small premium.

 

How can anyone possible believe they make sight unseen bids for coins that they have stickered? They already saw the coins in order to sticker them.

 

As for their "broad" guarantee, it basically involves at best buying the coin from you at a small premium over generic, scratching their sticker off, and reselling it for generic money. Not exactly a lot of liability there.

 

I agree. Of course the bid is not sight unseen if CAC has stickered a coin.

 

Exactly how have you determined what CAC pays for their stickered coins? Do you have any evidence at all of CAC removing their stickers and selling coins into the "generic" marketplace? Very strong accusations. Perhaps you have some personal experience?.

 

I don't have any experience in reselling coins to CAC. Do you?

 

Carl

 

Carl, Greg was correct about CAC occasionally buying back CAC coins (which, upon reconsideration, they feel they have stickered in error), then removing the sticker and reselling at a loss. I don't see that as an accusation, but rather, a fact and a good thing.

[stman]

I have sold a few coins to CAC. One was a mistake they made. Technically I still don't feel it's a "sight unseen" buy from them. They've left their mark that they like the coin. Now, yes they make fair offers. But keep in mind they don't sticker a coin for a + just the base grade. So buying a + might not be a strong bid for what a + might go for. Same as a star.

 

Also keep in mind if it's a monster toner, rare variety, whether the coins been dipped (yes they sticker these) or has nice original surfaces, this is also a "sight unseen" bid they make. So many times this might not be a good way to sell a coin to them.

[AnkurJ]

CAC is the only company I know that can write a 7 figure check for a coin they stickered on the spot. Who else does that?

[stman]

CAC is the only company I know that can write a 7 figure check for a coin they stickered on the spot. Who else does that?

 

Ya know, I've tried to be very fair on what I've wrote here. I wouldn't know as I haven't had any 7 figure coins before, How many have you sold them? Now I'm impressed you've out done us all!!!

[gmarguli]

CAC is the only company I know that can write a 7 figure check for a coin they stickered on the spot. Who else does that?

 

Considering they are practically the only company that stickers coins, that's not really an impressive thing you posted. It's like saying that McDonalds is the only company that can whip up a Big Mac on the spot.

 

Also, lots of dealers can write 7 figure checks. Again, not that impressive.

[dimefreak]

CAC is the only company I know that can write a 7 figure check for a coin they stickered on the spot. Who else does that?

 

Considering they are practically the only company that stickers coins, that's not really an impressive thing you posted. It's like saying that McDonalds is the only company that can whip up a Big Mac on the spot.

 

Also, lots of dealers can write 7 figure checks. Again, not that impressive.

 

Snow stickers small cents.... In which case Id choose his sticker over CAC... Everybody has an area of expertise. For Example, Bill Shamhart is an expert in commems so I definitely take notice when it comes to CAC'd commems. I dont dabble in enough other areas to know what else is a strong point for CAC. All I know is my taste doesnt align with theirs when it comes to Mercs... They are prolly right... I been knows to be a tad different

[AnkurJ]

CAC is the only company I know that can write a 7 figure check for a coin they stickered on the spot. Who else does that?

 

Ya know, I've tried to be very fair on what I've wrote here. I wouldn't know as I haven't had any 7 figure coins before, How many have you sold them? Now I'm impressed you've out done us all!!!

 

You said they don't consider toning, originality etc in their offers, which I can understand is a downside. But a huge upside, which is why I made my point above, is their buying power.

 

I have however, sold them multiple four digit coins.

 

PCGS and NGC also grade coins. How easy is it for them to admit their mistakes? Do they stand behind their product?

[AstroTrain]

Amazing! I still can't believe the hot topic this is

[Crohnos01]

Amazing! I still can't believe the hot topic this is

 

+1

 

I thought of CAC like going to a doctor for a second opinion. Perhaps an over simplification, but in broad terms I think that's it in a nutshell.

[mumu]

Amazing! I still can't believe the hot topic this is

 

+1

 

I thought of CAC like going to a doctor for a second opinion. Perhaps an over simplification, but in broad terms I think that's it in a nutshell.

 

It's like going for a 2nd opinon, being told the first guy is right and therefore now your surgery will cost more money because everyone was right.

[Kurtdog]

I can grade coins for myself, too. But I can still learn quite a bit from CAC. And most people who think they can't also learn from CAC are fooling themselves.

I'm sorry but grading isn't nearly as difficult as you and many others here would have us believe. At bottom it's no more difficult than grading baseball cards. Or currency, or stamps, or comics, or pocket watches, or you name it. All grading is is assessing technical condition relative to a standard of perfection. If grading were as difficult as you and many others here make out, think about it, there wouldn't be a hobby. Before the TPGs and CAC, grading was this whole hobby. There was nothing else. It was the whole reason we collected coins. It was the backbone of this hobby, as much as it remains the backbone of every, single hobby. Enter the TPGs and CAC, and now grading is marketing, not technical condition. Now, it's investing, not collecting. The TPGs and CAC are necessary for investors, not for collectors. That's where their utility is, short of rare exceptions. That's where the focus of market grading is. For collectors, we still technical grade our coins. That's all that's important to us. The ANA gives us the criteria upon which to examine and arrive at those technical grades, but it leaves it to us to subjectively weigh same, which are often competing and contradictory. That's where the subjectivity figures into the analysis. To suggest that anybody who thinks they can't learn from CAC is "fooling themselves" is a crock, if I ever heard one. Learn what from CAC, how it subjectively weighs the criteria? What do we care about that? We'll assign our own weights to the criteria based on how we subjectively weigh them, not on how CAC subjectively weighs them. In that regard, CAC can just as well "learn" from us.

[RWB]

The real excitement is being able to read it backwards.

[MarkFeld]

Amazing! I still can't believe the hot topic this is

 

+1

 

I thought of CAC like going to a doctor for a second opinion. Perhaps an over simplification, but in broad terms I think that's it in a nutshell.

 

Yes, CAC offers a low cost, highly expert, second opinion. But it also offers the potential for greater liquidity and learning.

[mommam17]

I agree that with CAC there is low cost, a highly expert opinion, greater liquidity and a chance to learn. My very favorite CAC experience was after the first Coinfest in 2007, John Albanese said, "You have nice coins." I will never forget that.....