Call me dumb, but what is CAC

[gmarguli]

I find it hard to believe that someone as numismatically adept as yourself has failed to see the disparity of market prices between CAC and non-CAC coins.

 

This is like talking about the magical power of the rooster for its ability to make the sun rise when it crows. Did the placement of the CAC sticker actually increase the value of the coin or would it have sold for the same amount without the sticker?

 

It is obvious that the CAC sticker inspires collector confidence, which does increase liquidity and resale value.

 

It's obvious that a hell of a lot of people have no idea what CAC does and that is its problem.

[Kurtdog]

I'm fully aware that CAC coins trade for premiums. I'm saying - I don't see why I should pay a premium for a CAC coin. I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a nice coin, but I can view the coin and make up my own mind, I don't need someone else telling me that this coin is nice for the grade or not. It's just another crutch for people who can't grade. What I'm saying is - I'm not convinced I need to pay CAC for their services, and I'm not convinced that just because a coin has a green sticker it is worth so much more than one which doesn't.

Supposing you see a coin you like at the grade in a TPG slab with a CAC sticker on it. You don't value that coin like the CAC suckers who are also bidding on it do, you don't get it. It's as simple as that.

 

[coinman_23885]

I find it hard to believe that someone as numismatically adept as yourself has failed to see the disparity of market prices between CAC and non-CAC coins.

 

It is obvious that the CAC sticker inspires collector confidence, which does increase liquidity and resale value.

 

I'm fully aware that CAC coins trade for premiums. I'm saying - I don't see why I should pay a premium for a CAC coin. I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a nice coin, but I can view the coin and make up my own mind, I don't need someone else telling me that this coin is nice for the grade or not. It's just another crutch for people who can't grade. What I'm saying is - I'm not convinced I need to pay CAC for their services, and I'm not convinced that just because a coin has a green sticker it is worth so much more than one which doesn't.

 

Quick question: Would you pay more for a certified coin than a raw coin? If so, why?

 

[halfpint]

...the way i see it, a lot of, or should i say, all grading is subjective. CAC

 

is like the revue booth officials at a ball game taking another look at the play

 

after the red flag is thrown. they're the guys that settle the ruling! they're the

 

guys that satisfy (or are supposed to) all the fans and players!

[Kurtdog]

I find it hard to believe that someone as numismatically adept as yourself has failed to see the disparity of market prices between CAC and non-CAC coins.

 

It is obvious that the CAC sticker inspires collector confidence, which does increase liquidity and resale value.

I'm fully aware that CAC coins trade for premiums. I'm saying - I don't see why I should pay a premium for a CAC coin. I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a nice coin, but I can view the coin and make up my own mind, I don't need someone else telling me that this coin is nice for the grade or not. It's just another crutch for people who can't grade. What I'm saying is - I'm not convinced I need to pay CAC for their services, and I'm not convinced that just because a coin has a green sticker it is worth so much more than one which doesn't.

Quick question: Would you pay more for a certified coin than a raw coin? If so, why?

If he wouldn't he's going to be outbid on it every time because there are too many suckers who would pay more.

[$ilverHawk]

CAC is an illegal lottery operation. If you scratch off to reveal a gold sticker, you win lots of money that has nothing to do with coins.

 

Please explain your comment. I'm very interested in your insights.

 

Carl

 

 

I get the illegal lottery operation comment, but not so sure about this part. "you win lots of money that has nothing to do with coins." I guess I just don't get that part of the joke.

 

Hey, Happy New Year.

 

Carl

[coinman_23885]

I find it hard to believe that someone as numismatically adept as yourself has failed to see the disparity of market prices between CAC and non-CAC coins.

 

It is obvious that the CAC sticker inspires collector confidence, which does increase liquidity and resale value.

I'm fully aware that CAC coins trade for premiums. I'm saying - I don't see why I should pay a premium for a CAC coin. I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a nice coin, but I can view the coin and make up my own mind, I don't need someone else telling me that this coin is nice for the grade or not. It's just another crutch for people who can't grade. What I'm saying is - I'm not convinced I need to pay CAC for their services, and I'm not convinced that just because a coin has a green sticker it is worth so much more than one which doesn't.

Quick question: Would you pay more for a certified coin than a raw coin? If so, why?

If he wouldn't he's going to be outbid on it every time because there are too many suckers who would pay more.

 

Do you pay to insure your vehicle, your car, or any of your valuables?

[Coindude]

Whether you like CAC or not the fact is coins with a CAC sticker will give piece of mind to certain buyers and certain buyers will pay more money for coins with the stickers on them. Even though they've been around for years I still think there is a large percentage of people out there who think that the green sticker means premium for grade when all it means is they agree with the grade on the slab.

 

Like it or not, CAC is here to stay and is run by one of the pillars of our numismatic community.

 

I personally don't have a problem with them but I have yet to utilize their service. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't in the future but I have yet to either send a coin or purchase a coin with a sticker affixed. I have on the other hand, photographed many many coins with the stickers affixed, only green to this point, and I have to agree that I feel they do a very good job. Of course, the people that I photograph coins for have exceptional taste in coins and I believe they would have chosen coins with excellent eye appeal regardless.

 

I'm sure I've said more than enough.

[Kurtdog]

I find it hard to believe that someone as numismatically adept as yourself has failed to see the disparity of market prices between CAC and non-CAC coins.

 

It is obvious that the CAC sticker inspires collector confidence, which does increase liquidity and resale value.

I'm fully aware that CAC coins trade for premiums. I'm saying - I don't see why I should pay a premium for a CAC coin. I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a nice coin, but I can view the coin and make up my own mind, I don't need someone else telling me that this coin is nice for the grade or not. It's just another crutch for people who can't grade. What I'm saying is - I'm not convinced I need to pay CAC for their services, and I'm not convinced that just because a coin has a green sticker it is worth so much more than one which doesn't.

Quick question: Would you pay more for a certified coin than a raw coin? If so, why?

If he wouldn't he's going to be outbid on it every time because there are too many suckers who would pay more.

Do you pay to insure your vehicle, your car, or any of your valuables?

Oh, they're selling insurance.

[Coindude]

I find it hard to believe that someone as numismatically adept as yourself has failed to see the disparity of market prices between CAC and non-CAC coins.

It is obvious that the CAC sticker inspires collector confidence, which does increase liquidity and resale value.

I'm fully aware that CAC coins trade for premiums. I'm saying - I don't see why I should pay a premium for a CAC coin. I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a nice coin, but I can view the coin and make up my own mind, I don't need someone else telling me that this coin is nice for the grade or not. It's just another crutch for people who can't grade. What I'm saying is - I'm not convinced I need to pay CAC for their services, and I'm not convinced that just because a coin has a green sticker it is worth so much more than one which doesn't.

Jason, I will say that I have seen a lot of pictures of coins that are in your collection. I believe that if the time ever came to liquidate part of all of your collection you would greatly benefit from utilizing the service.

 

Seeing that the cost of submission for coins that value less than $10k is $12.50 and say that a $1000 coin with a sticker might sell for say $1100, that would be a net profit of almost $90. So, why wouldn't a person who wants to make a bit more profit use the service? There are a few coins in my possession that I am still considering sending in. Just haven't made the leap yet.

[coinman_23885]

I have seen the stickers and I have a general idea, but I still don't get it.

 

Think of CAC like an umbrella insurance policy; it attaches to and covers what your primary insurance policy (the third party grading services' guarantee) doesn't cover. Let me explain my analogy: The TPGs guard against overgraded (supposedly) problem coins and CAC adds liquidity by serving as a market maker. CAC will buy back its coins regardless of whether it has problems or whether you simply don't want it. It fills in and provides additional coverage that you don't have with TPG certification alone. Also CAC's bids are stronger than the payouts from the TPGs in my opinion and don't have many of the limitations of the TPG guarantee (although it does have some limitations of itself, which are minor, if you ask me).

 

CAC has also served a secondary function of screening the cream of the crop from everything else. Both PCGS and NGC have had periods where they were very liberal in their grading. BOTH have tightened considerably since the advent of CAC; however, the market is still flooded with overgraded coins. CAC provides quick way to engage in sight unseen (or internet photo) based transactions while minimizing risk. It is a cheap insurance policy if you ask me for the $12.50 or $25 (for coins over $20k) that it costs to have the coin stickered.

 

Edited to add: In response to the other posts, CAC submissions can be very educational, even for well seasoned collectors. Notwithstanding this, I see CAC as useful and I do not use it as a crutch. While I believe that I am competent enough to grade my own coins, the increased liquidity and the fact that if something should happen to me, my heirs will have some guidance in selling their items, is of enormous value to me.

[coinman_23885]

I find it hard to believe that someone as numismatically adept as yourself has failed to see the disparity of market prices between CAC and non-CAC coins.

 

It is obvious that the CAC sticker inspires collector confidence, which does increase liquidity and resale value.

I'm fully aware that CAC coins trade for premiums. I'm saying - I don't see why I should pay a premium for a CAC coin. I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a nice coin, but I can view the coin and make up my own mind, I don't need someone else telling me that this coin is nice for the grade or not. It's just another crutch for people who can't grade. What I'm saying is - I'm not convinced I need to pay CAC for their services, and I'm not convinced that just because a coin has a green sticker it is worth so much more than one which doesn't.

Quick question: Would you pay more for a certified coin than a raw coin? If so, why?

If he wouldn't he's going to be outbid on it every time because there are too many suckers who would pay more.

Do you pay to insure your vehicle, your car, or any of your valuables?

Oh, they're selling insurance.

 

Yes, they are effectively selling limited insurance policies that payout at will with stickered conis. You can get rid of them (the coins) and sell them to CAC for a sight unseen bid. From my experience, these bids are very fair and sometimes are more than what I paid for the respective coin and the sticker. See my other post.

[Kurtdog]

I find it hard to believe that someone as numismatically adept as yourself has failed to see the disparity of market prices between CAC and non-CAC coins.

 

It is obvious that the CAC sticker inspires collector confidence, which does increase liquidity and resale value.

I'm fully aware that CAC coins trade for premiums. I'm saying - I don't see why I should pay a premium for a CAC coin. I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a nice coin, but I can view the coin and make up my own mind, I don't need someone else telling me that this coin is nice for the grade or not. It's just another crutch for people who can't grade. What I'm saying is - I'm not convinced I need to pay CAC for their services, and I'm not convinced that just because a coin has a green sticker it is worth so much more than one which doesn't.

Quick question: Would you pay more for a certified coin than a raw coin? If so, why?

If he wouldn't he's going to be outbid on it every time because there are too many suckers who would pay more.

Do you pay to insure your vehicle, your car, or any of your valuables?

Oh, they're selling insurance.

Yes, they are effectively selling limited insurance policies that payout at will with stickered conis. You can get rid of them (the coins) and sell them to CAC for a sight unseen bid. From my experience, these bids are very fair and sometimes are more than what I paid for the respective coin and the sticker. See my other post.

I did see your other post just before I saw this post. You look at it that way, that's what they're doing, yes. The only reason they're not regulated by the state insurance departments for doing it is they're only "effectively" doing it. Translated that means they're doing it while they're not doing it.

[coinman_23885]

I did see your other post just before I saw this post. You look at it that way, that's what they're doing, yes. The only reason they're not regulated by the state insurance departments for doing it is they're only "effectively" doing it. Translated that means they're doing it while they're not doing it.

 

I agree with your last sentence. It's all in the way that you phrase it to the regulatory agencies, and in fairness, they also provide the screening function too.

[breakdown-migration]

I know DaveG's friend also and have benefited from his advice so I don't claim to come at this from an unbiased perspective. But having said that, there's a few things that always seem to get lost in these CAC discussions:

 

1. I agree that CAC should not be an excuse to continue to get better at grading coins myself. I think I am better at grading than I was a year ago and hope to be better a year from now. I go to coin shows and look at coins. I go to lot viewing and look at coins. I ask a lot of questions of people that are willing to share knowledge.

 

2. Having said that, I also understand that there are professionals who grade better than me and always will. John Albanese and the graders at CAC are some of these people. So are the graders at NGC and PCGS.

 

3. CAC will actually provide you education when you send in coins. If you ask why a coin does not sticker, they will tell you and you can learn something in the process, if you are willing.

 

4. Most collectors who are fully confident in their own grading abilities shouldn't be.

 

5. Those that don't need or like CAC can continue to ignore the stickers and buy coins as they see fit. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Kurtdog]

I have seen the stickers and I have a general idea, but I still don't get it.

I'll answer this original question. The less you know about CAC and the more you know about how to technically grade coins the more you'll enjoy this hobby.

[jom]

I'm fully aware that CAC coins trade for premiums. I'm saying - I don't see why I should pay a premium for a CAC coin. I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a nice coin, but I can view the coin and make up my own mind, I don't need someone else telling me that this coin is nice for the grade or not. It's just another crutch for people who can't grade. What I'm saying is - I'm not convinced I need to pay CAC for their services, and I'm not convinced that just because a coin has a green sticker it is worth so much more than one which doesn't.

 

The part here I don't agree with is that CAC has never said you should pay a premium for the the coins that are stickered. The MARKET PLACE seems to have demanded that. That is not CAC's "fault" so to speak. You don't have to do anything you don't want to.

 

All the rest I agree with...

 

jom

[AstroTrain]

I have seen the stickers and I have a general idea, but I still don't get it.

I'll answer this original question. The less you know about CAC and the more you know about how to technically grade coins the more you'll enjoy this hobby.

 

I'm starting to see that. I thought my post would go like this:

 

Me: what is CAC?

 

1 other person: Dave, its just a secondary validation to the original grading.

 

I didn't expect to ignite this.

[jom]

I'm not bashing CAC because I don't think their service is necessary. I'm not trying to bash them at all here. I'm just pointing out that they have failed to deliver their message to the coin community. Their marketing efforts are not paying off in terms of brand understanding. Don't ask me, ask other collectors.

 

CAC said: "With CAC, prices for the solid quality coins can be untethered from the lesser quality counterparts."

 

Given that the marketplace has responded to higher bids for the coins that are stickered it seems to me the marketplace has understood quite well...at least the above quote anyway. They also seem to AGREE with it too....at least so far.

 

jom

[jom]

I didn't expect to ignite this.

 

I don't know your background but it seems you haven't been around long enough. Any thread that has to do with either grading or artificial toning WILL ignite this kind of discussion.

 

jom

[Kurtdog]

You want to see "ignite" go to the thread on "Just missed out on a major disaster." Have a happy and safe one everybody.

[coinman_23885]

I didn't expect to ignite this.

 

I don't know your background but it seems you haven't been around long enough. Any thread that has to do with either grading or artificial toning WILL ignite this kind of discussion.

 

jom

 

I'll add TPGs and CAC generally to Jom's list.

[jom]

I didn't expect to ignite this.

 

I don't know your background but it seems you haven't been around long enough. Any thread that has to do with either grading or artificial toning WILL ignite this kind of discussion.

 

jom

 

I'll add TPGs and CAC generally to Jom's list.

 

Actually, your addition is more accurate. Generally, "grading" threads aren't all that heated UNTIL TPG's (including CAC) are tossed into the conversation. That's when the fun begins.

 

jom

[jom]

You want to see "ignite" go to the thread on "Just missed out on a major disaster." Have a happy and safe one everybody.

 

Oh yeah...that's one hell of a hot topic.

 

jom

[AstroTrain]

You want to see "ignite" go to the thread on "Just missed out on a major disaster." Have a happy and safe one everybody.

 

Oh yeah...that's one hell of a hot topic.

 

jom

 

I saw that thread, its on fire

[mumu]

CAC is an illegal lottery operation. If you scratch off to reveal a gold sticker, you win lots of money that has nothing to do with coins.

 

Please explain your comment. I'm very interested in your insights.

 

Carl

 

 

I get the illegal lottery operation comment, but not so sure about this part. "you win lots of money that has nothing to do with coins." I guess I just don't get that part of the joke.

 

Hey, Happy New Year.

 

Carl

 

It means that with gold sticker coins often getting 2 and 3 grades' prices higher, people are bidding the bean itself more than the coin.

[newprepper]

you guys are so good with your little emoticons, you need to figure out a way to get rimshots with your little shots that you are firing at jimbucks, you must have been burning up your keyboards to get them in

[Walkerfan]

CAC is just as inconsistent as the TPGS. I have seen high stuff beaned and also dreck. :shrug:

[gmarguli]

Given that the marketplace has responded to higher bids for the coins that are stickered it seems to me the marketplace has understood quite well...at least the above quote anyway. They also seem to AGREE with it too....at least so far.

 

I don't follow the online bid markets for US that much. On average, how much more does a CAC stickered coin bring above a sight seen bid for the exact same coin?

[coinman_23885]

Given that the marketplace has responded to higher bids for the coins that are stickered it seems to me the marketplace has understood quite well...at least the above quote anyway. They also seem to AGREE with it too....at least so far.

 

I don't follow the online bid markets for US that much. On average, how much more does a CAC stickered coin bring above a sight seen bid for the exact same coin?

 

I don't have data for the sight seen market alone, but I can tell you that the Heritage Auctions (which are sight seen at least for some) demonstrate the differences. A series where there is a large disparity is the Saint Gaudens Double Eagle. Coins have sold as much as 40-50% higher than their counterparts with a CAC green sticker in the same grade/same brand of plastic/generic gold.