NGC v PCGS at auction

[newprepper]

This is just my obsevation, and questions to go with them. I will preface it with I only look at a few things, lincolns, jeffs, mercs, roosies, wash q, but, it seems like NGC has graded a lot more of some things than PCGS, and most of the time has graded higher than them. Why do more people use NGC? it seems that when there are 2 identicle coins in diff slabs the PCGS has higher bidding. It also seems that more NGC coins go to teletrade, about 10-1. I can only speak to my observations regarding teletrade however.

[Walkerfan]

The Teletrade stat is FALSE----they have WAY more PCGS coins than only 10%.

 

NGC has GREAT customer service, so MANY people tend to prefer that.

 

Both services have their idiosyncrasies.

 

Some believe NGC to be looser when grading above MS 65 (66 onward). I'm not sure that this was EVER true but it sure isn't true NOW.

 

I honestly think that both services are equal and, sometimes, I think NGC might even be a little bit BETTER----certainly NOT inferior to PCGS, in any event.

[newprepper]

As I said it was only my observation.

[Walkerfan]

As I said it was only my observation.

 

It's all good--JMHO, too.

[e1cnr]

You need to know how both companies grade each series and then decide the best route.

 

As an example, I have had Jefferson nickels that I have felt would go MS66 in PCGS and MS67 5FS in NGC.

 

I would argue that PCGS and NGC grade this series differently with PCGS needing more luster to go 67 while NGC allowing clean, almost PL coins. NGC also seems a little more lax on allowing nicks across steps and still giving step designation.

 

The buyers are strong for top pops in both companys slabs, although many people would agree PCGS grades roughly 1/2 point stricter on average for this series.

 

 

When you say 2 identicle coins with NGC selling for less, what you seem to not understand is the coins usually are not identicle, but just what the slab says.

[Walkerfan]

When you say 2 identicle coins with NGC selling for less, what you seem to not understand is the coins usually are not identicle, but just what the slab says.

 

ALWAYS judge by coin quality and not numerical grade---that is a given. THAT is what I think of, immediately, in reference to the word IDENTICAL.

[newprepper]

When you say 2 identicle coins with NGC selling for less, what you seem to not understand is the coins usually are not identicle, but just what the slab says.

 

ALWAYS judge by coin quality and not numerical grade---that is a given. THAT is what I think of, immediately, in reference to the word IDENTICAL.

 

I was simply refering to the grades being the same, I fully understand not the same

[Crohnos01]

Seems like the only way to semi scientifically test this theory would be to take a sample of coins, send them to N. Once they are received back, note the grades, and then crack them out and send to P.... Then compare the grades. To get a reasonably accurate result though, the sample size would have to be very large given the numbers both TPGs grade annually. Has anyone ever conducted such an experiment?

[James_OldeTowne]

This is just my obsevation, and questions to go with them. I will preface it with I only look at a few things, lincolns, jeffs, mercs, roosies, wash q, but, it seems like NGC has graded a lot more of some things than PCGS, and most of the time has graded higher than them. Why do more people use NGC? it seems that when there are 2 identicle coins in diff slabs the PCGS has higher bidding. It also seems that more NGC coins go to teletrade, about 10-1. I can only speak to my observations regarding teletrade however.

Regarding so-called "auction venues" -- and this is my opinion -- eBay is THE worst setting upon which to draw judgements as to how the market perceives the value of coins, because of all the fraud and nonsense price manipulation that goes on.

 

What venue is second worst -- again in my opinion? Teletrade.

 

I would surmise from your OP that you've simply used a faulty model (Teletrade) upon which to draw an objective conclusion.

 

The so-called "higher bidding on PCGS" is likely to reflect a higher reserve placed by the consignor, simply because he overpaid for his PCGS coins (vs. what he might have paid for NGC coins). When given options, it NEVER makes sense to overpay for a coin in my opinion simply due to the brand of plastic, all else being equal.

[newprepper]

Seems like the only way to semi scientifically test this theory would be to take a sample of coins, send them to N. Once they are received back, note the grades, and then crack them out and send to P.... Then compare the grades. To get a reasonably accurate result though, the sample size would have to be very large given the numbers both TPGs grade annually. Has anyone ever conducted such an experiment?

 

first you would have to repeatably send the coins multiple times to each TPG to ensure they are grading consistently, then would you send to CAC for another oppinion? it would be interesting for sure

[BillJones]

I admit that I do limit myself to NGC and PCGS graded coins because they are easier to sell. The "second tier" services have lower grading standards that range from modestly inaccurate to atrocious.

 

Beyond that I buy coins, not holders. It does not matter to me if the piece I like is in an NGC or PCGS holder. In fact I've had instances where I could describe the coin to you in great detail but would not be able to tell you if the coin was in an NGC or PCGS holder. I'm not alone. Some of my customers were the same way when I was a dealer.

 

I am very glad that not everyone sends their coins to PCGS. Monopolies are no good for consumers. PCGS is not perfect, and those who say that they are perfect are dead wrong. Also a great many properly graded NGC coins have been crossed to PCGS because of the perception that PCGS coins always bring more money at bourse tables and at auction.

 

That opinion is not accurate. I've seen it go both ways. But yes, PCGS graded coins bring higher prices more often than NGC coins do, and that can be to YOUR advantage. If you can buy an NGC graded coin that is as nice or better than its PCGS counterpart for hundreds or thousands of dollars less, why not do it? I have an 1881 gold dollar in NGC MS-67 that was better than the two PCGS graded MS-67 1881 gold dollars I saw at a show, and it cost $400 less. I also have a 1915-S Pan-Pac Round $50 gold in NGC MS-64, CAC. It is a better preserved coin than the 1915-S Pan-Pac Octagonal $50 gold I have in PCGS MS-64, CAC. I paid less for it despite the fact that the round variety is rarer and has a higher catalog value.

 

 

[johnny9434]

As I said it was only my observation.

 

It's all good--JMHO, too.

no argument here either

[jom]

When a PCGS coin goes for more money does this really mean they are "better" than NGC? If so, what is the definition of "better"? Is it tighter grading standards or the consistency in which those standards are applied?

 

IMO, it is the latter. Is that MS65 really MS65 today, tomorrow and next week or does it constantly change? To me the consistency if FAR more important.

 

As to coin cracking: if a properly graded coin gets cracked and sent to PCGS and graded the same no one really sees the proper grade applied by NGC so in a lot of ways the higher price paid for the PCGS is bogus. It was the same coin...why would it be worth more surrounded in plastic with a different label?

 

In the coin market is really weird sometimes and the perception in the market when it comes to grades and values are often at odds with common sense.

 

jom

[Houston Investor]

I have PCGS coin facts on my iphone and Laptop. It gives auction results for both PCGS and NGC coins of that issue.

 

In looking at Coin Facts for a 1934-D Oregon in MS 65 (random sample) it gives auction results for a PCGS issue in the 189-269 range and for NGC 188-259 range. CW Values lists the coin at $400. My local B&M has it (NGC coin) priced at $395 and they probably could be talked down to about 350-375. They are fair and have good prices but will not be hosed by someone's low ball offer or manipulated by someone trying to buy at wholesale.

 

One can draw his own conclusions from this based on a particular issue. However, for me, its a function of how nice in eye appeal the coin is and where it falls in the grade range vs what I paid in evaluating the deal.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Seems like the only way to semi scientifically test this theory would be to take a sample of coins, send them to N. Once they are received back, note the grades, and then crack them out and send to P.... Then compare the grades. To get a reasonably accurate result though, the sample size would have to be very large given the numbers both TPGs grade annually. Has anyone ever conducted such an experiment?

 

Done, in a small way, some years ago.

5 types, three coins from each series(same date/mm) 4 TPGs, resubmitted 3X.

As an example, 1st type Morgans submitted to TPG A, then B, then C, then D, rotated 3X as each came back, until all finally passed thru 3X.

 

The most consistant was ANACS.

 

I know- the question will be what types submitted.

Morgan, Peace, Jefferson, Buffalo and Mercs.

 

The next question will be which TPGS.

NGC, PCGS, ANACs and ICG.

 

The next question will be what did they start as, before the exercise began.

All raw, without regard to the best of the best of the best of the best.......

 

Admittedly, an insignificant exercise, but (blah, blah), and "eye" opener.

[mkman123]

I judge the coin on its own merits. I have heard ridiculous comments such as a person on CCF who said when he buys NGC coins, he tries to pay what he would on a "raw" coin.

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Both services are super-conservative on any coin defects these days due to the CU/coin doctor lawsuit. "A scalded cat is even afraid of cold water". So now if a coin does not have cleaning or other surface quality issues, rim or contact marks, reasonably normal appearance, the grading services then make a judgment call on where the market will judge the coin and vis-a-vis their own grading standards. Plus we have CAC that has seen well over a billion in PCGS and NGC coins and knows far more than they will share openly about grading philosophies of the two, plus where CAC stands with their own criteria. Ultimately any intelligent person can make an argument for or against a given coin. I once went down to an area expert dealer with an 1878-CC Morgan dollar that I had cracked out of a PCGS MS65 holder and was in an ANACS MS66 holder. He said I would be lucky to get the coin back into a PCGS 65 holder, but when submitted there it also earned a 66. I showed it to Jim Halperin at the FUN show and he really liked the coin, it had a mint made parallel striations that to an unskilled observer looked like a problem or defect, but not to him. So objectivity is really not an absolute, only common ground criteria on quality standards.

[jom]

BPlus we have CAC that has seen well over a billion in PCGS and NGC coins and knows far more than they will share openly about grading philosophies of the two, plus where CAC stands with their own criteria.

 

A billion? You seem to be using that as a literal number of coins. For CAC to have seen 1 billion coins they would have had to go through something like 22,000 coins a day, 365 days for the last 5 years. Even if they had 100 people working that's still 220 coins per day. I hardly think it is even remotely near that number.

 

All the rest you said I agree...but 1 billion?

 

jom

[James_OldeTowne]

Seems like the only way to semi scientifically test this theory would be to take a sample of coins, send them to N. Once they are received back, note the grades, and then crack them out and send to P.... Then compare the grades. To get a reasonably accurate result though, the sample size would have to be very large given the numbers both TPGs grade annually. Has anyone ever conducted such an experiment?

 

Done, in a small way, some years ago.

5 types, three coins from each series(same date/mm) 4 TPGs, resubmitted 3X.

As an example, 1st type Morgans submitted to TPG A, then B, then C, then D, rotated 3X as each came back, until all finally passed thru 3X.

 

The most consistant was ANACS.

 

I know- the question will be what types submitted.

Morgan, Peace, Jefferson, Buffalo and Mercs.

 

The next question will be which TPGS.

NGC, PCGS, ANACs and ICG.

 

The next question will be what did they start as, before the exercise began.

All raw, without regard to the best of the best of the best of the best.......

 

Admittedly, an insignificant exercise, but (blah, blah), and "eye" opener.

John, are you referring to that old Coin World experiment? As I recall, an actual conclusion of that article was that ACCUGRADE was a more "consistent" grading service than PCGS and NGC both!!

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Good Morning James EarlyUS.

 

Your question is understandable, because the words ("...by me...") should have been inserted after the word "Done".

 

I recall the article you mention.

 

I embarked on my little meaningless experiment during a serious bout of boredom and no energy to go to the used book store.

 

Unfortunately my OCD erupted, and mania supplied the needed stupidity to continue with the experiment.

 

Now, with your unfeeling Post, you are, and have, caused a new OCD Mania episode, because I did not include ACCUGRADE in my original experiment, and can not go back and correct this oversight.

 

I hate you...I really, really, hate you.

[Houston Investor]

I judge the coin on its own merits. I have heard ridiculous comments such as a person on CCF who said when he buys NGC coins, he tries to pay what he would on a "raw" coin.

 

 

I totally agree. I think for someone to make a comment like that on NGC coins is not only an absurdity but a serious attempt to rip the buyer with false propaganda. According to the 10/12/12 CDN Certified Coin Market Indicator Blue Sheet Bid levels on PCGS or NGC coins are roughly 80% (Average Column) of CDN Greysheet Bid on both.

 

Whenever I am at a show and someone tries to tell me something that NGC coins are worth less than PCGS coins (almost always in trying to get a rip) I just laugh and say "Baloney" or "do you have some you will sell me at that".

[Walkerfan]

I judge the coin on its own merits. I have heard ridiculous comments such as a person on CCF who said when he buys NGC coins, he tries to pay what he would on a "raw" coin.

 

 

I totally agree. I think for someone to make a comment like that on NGC coins is not only an absurdity but a serious attempt to rip the buyer with false propaganda. According to the 10/12/12 CDN Certified Coin Market Indicator Blue Sheet Bid levels on PCGS or NGC coins are roughly 80% (Average Column) of CDN Greysheet Bid on both.

 

Whenever I am at a show and someone tries to tell me something that NGC coins are worth less than PCGS coins (almost always in trying to get a rip) I just laugh and say "Baloney" or "do you have some you will sell me at that".

 

For sure-----LET ME BUY THEM. I'll take them off his hands ALL DAY LONG. I bet that this would make that insufficiently_thoughtful_person pull in his horns regarding his ridiculous statements against NGC. Anyone with HALF a brain will judge a coin based upon its quality REGARDLESS of whether it is a P or an N and, if they don't----it's their loss and my gain. JMHO.

[mkman123]

walkerfan and widget fan, the same poster on CCF mentions that ICG and ANACs are of a higher tier than NGC, when I heard that, I tuned him out. hahahaha

[Walkerfan]

walkerfan and widget fan, the same poster on CCF mentions that ICG and ANACs are of a higher tier than NGC, when I heard that, I tuned him out. hahahaha

 

Good for you! :thumbsup:

 

Some people's children...........

[michael]

pcgs ngc xyz abc

 

if i find a coin with extraordinary eye appeal and way above average surfaces and original unmolested surfaces again with extreme eye appeal that meet my requirements

 

i dont care whose holder it is in-------

 

i rather have it in a crummy holder it has less demand

 

but the coin needs to have "michael eye appeal"

 

so far in my own tiny little world; of 45+ years in the coin game

 

i have yet to be disappointed in demand for such coins

 

((i come upon in many different holders or none at all some are even nakked ))

 

that meet my criteria

[Crohnos01]

I travel around the country a bit with my job, and I always try to find dealers in whatever city I am in to see what they have that I don't. One dealer in particular, I was in their shop looking over their wares, and another customer came in with a pretty nice Walker (sorry, I don't remember the date), and was asking the dealer what he should do with the coin. The dealer told the guy that he would "send it to PCGS, because they are much more respected in the world of coin grading than anyone else. NGC is ok, but they really can't be compared to PCGS."

 

I of course nearly choked from biting my tongue, but this was this guys shop, his customer, and apparently his opinion, so I didn't feel it was my place to challenge him on the subject. I ended up leaving before they finished their business, so I don't know if the coin got sent to PCGS or not.

 

A few months later, I went back to the same shop, and the same dealer. By now, I have formed a bit of a relationship with the guy and he shows me a photo of a really sweet Morgan that he cherry picked from an estate collection that someone brought in for his personal collection. He then tells me that he just sent the coin to NGC for grading. This of course confused me, so I asked him why a few months earlier he was advising folks to only send to PCGS. His answer? "I only just got.an account set up with NGC so I couldn't have sent the coin anywhere but PCGS before.".

[Bruceswar]

I have PCGS coin facts on my iphone and Laptop. It gives auction results for both PCGS and NGC coins of that issue.

 

In looking at Coin Facts for a 1934-D Oregon in MS 65 (random sample) it gives auction results for a PCGS issue in the 189-269 range and for NGC 188-259 range. CW Values lists the coin at $400. My local B&M has it (NGC coin) priced at $395 and they probably could be talked down to about 350-375. They are fair and have good prices but will not be hosed by someone's low ball offer or manipulated by someone trying to buy at wholesale.

 

One can draw his own conclusions from this based on a particular issue. However, for me, its a function of how nice in eye appeal the coin is and where it falls in the grade range vs what I paid in evaluating the deal.

 

OK so the coins bring 188 to 259 at auction. CW Values it at $400 Why would a coin shop not want to be reasonable on the coin or do they think they can really get close to full retail. Being in a shop myself one can ask anything but that does not always mean they will get it. If I were you try $250.00 offer and see what happens. The Market on those commemorative coins are slow. Might be a good time to buy.

 

I just got an Iowa in PCGS MS 66 for $131 shipped. Now my 2011 sheet shows 150/165 bid / ask. My sheet from this past week shows 120/130 bid / ask Means prices are dropping some and it is a good time to buy a few coins if possible in this series.