Dipped coins - the older the coin (type), the sillier it looks, if color-free...

[MarkFeld]

Your thoughts?

[Zoins]

If it's very old and clean, it can remind me of a Gallery Mint reproduction....

 

That's not to say it's not a nice coin. I probably just need to look at less Gallery Mint pieces

[James_OldeTowne]

Dipped coins - the older the coin (type), the sillier it looks, if color-free...

 

Different words, but exactly the sentiments I've expressed numerous times.

[MarkFeld]

Dipped coins - the older the coin (type), the sillier it looks, if color-free...

 

Different words, but exactly the sentiments I've expressed numerous times.

 

Yikes, am I allowed to change my opinion?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jom]

Each coin is different. Why does it matter if it's an older type coin or a Kennedy half?

 

OK, I'm also ready to admit I don't really understand the question.

 

jom

[MarkFeld]

Each coin is different. Why does it matter if it's an older type coin or a Kennedy half?

 

OK, I'm also ready to admit I don't really understand the question.

 

jom

 

To each his own. But, for example, to me, a color-free Kennedy Half Dollar looks a lot more natural than a color-free Draped Bust Half Dollar. That's because the former might not have been/probably hasn't been dipped, but the latter has. And I expect and prefer that a 200 year old coin look toned, dirty, etc., as opposed to dipped and/or bright white.

[Walkerfan]

I have always said that I don't mind white coins, as long as the are very lusterous----there is nothing worse than a stone white, dull, stripped coin. I guess that I feel the same way about older coins, too, but YES they DO tend to look more natural with some color. I guess I'd take, either one, but I suppose that I would prefer the more toned piece if given my druthers. That is also assuming that it's not too dark or unattractive.

[Coindude]

Not only that Mark, but when I see an older classic coin with obvious new rainbow toning..... that kinda urks me to be honest.

[newprepper]

a question just popped into my head, if a coin is dipped, like a barber half, does it turn the whole thing white ?

[RockMyAmadeus]

This thread is useless without pics.

[PerryHall]

I saw a PCGS MS63 draped bust half from the 1830's that was blast white. It was a beautiful coin but had obviously been dipped and looked weird. Agree with Mark.

[coinman1794]

Personally, I like to see a choice original patina on Early US coins. I know many collectors, on the other hand (and a few dealers, too), who won't touch early stuff unless it is brilliant. There is a segment of the market that still believes white is better, no matter what coin it is.

 

Sometimes, early coins that are brilliant are not abrasively cleaned, but instead, conserved in ways that do not disturb metal. Technically, these coins are not problem pieces, as they are not damaged; they just look unusually brilliant. Buying such coins is just a matter of taste, and I will on occasion handle one, if it's a scarce variety.

 

For the majority of brilliant early coins, which were badly dipped or abrasively cleaned, there is no hope

[World Colonial]

Each coin is different. Why does it matter if it's an older type coin or a Kennedy half?

 

OK, I'm also ready to admit I don't really understand the question.

 

jom

 

To each his own. But, for example, to me, a color-free Kennedy Half Dollar looks a lot more natural than a color-free Draped Bust Half Dollar. That's because the former might not have been/probably hasn't been dipped, but the latter has. And I expect and prefer that a 200 year old coin look toned, dirty, etc., as opposed to dipped and/or bright white.

 

I agree completely and it is something I learned from here, though I admit it does depend upon the series for both the coins I own and have seen.

 

To use a couple of examples, I do not like "white pillars". I have a 1753 Peru NGC MS-64 1R which is completely untoned and I am pretty sure it must have been "enhanced" at some time in the past. What remains of the luster is not unappealing but less appealing than other toned specimens of this design I also own.

 

A second example is the Spanish Cross silver issued from about 1600 to 1761. Most of these I own are actually not toned at all either but they still look more natural to me. I see these untoned at auction most of the time as well, though I have never inspected the coins in person. With those I own, such as my 1729 Seville NGC MS-66 1R, the luster seems original though I admit that its probably unlikely and I have no way of actually knowing.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Are we working under the theory that some have stated that NO silver coin prior to 1850 still has original "right off the die" mint luster and color?

 

I don't know if I believe that, but certainly some have made that argument....that 150+ years is just too long for silver to remain unoxidized in some way...

[coinman1794]

I don't subscribe to that theory, as coins sometimes have residues that protect the underlying white silver from oxidation. When the residue is conserved away, the original white silver shows like new.

 

That said, the vast majority of older coin that are white have been dipped.

[MarkFeld]

Are we working under the theory that some have stated that NO silver coin prior to 1850 still has original "right off the die" mint luster and color?

 

I don't know if I believe that, but certainly some have made that argument....that 150+ years is just too long for silver to remain unoxidized in some way...

 

I prefer not to use words like "always", "never", "all" or "no". However, my guess is that the % of un-dipped/un-cleaned pre-1850 coins which display ""right off the die" mint luster and color" is very close to 0%.

[Hard Times]

That is a good way to put it Mark, what is even more troubling are the blast white or nearly so pre-1850 examples that are XF to AU, worn but dipped, and still in TPG holders with a grade. In your opinion, are these still getting into TPG holders or have they now been putting these in Details holders instead?

 

Best, HT

[Raisethis2]

I've always wondered about the same thing. I've seen more than a few pre 1850 coins that have been graded but also cleaned in some fashion. If the coin were a more common newer silver coin it gets details designation. Seem like TPG's are more lenient on the older bust type coins.

 

Still, I prefer the older coins to have patina no matter their grade. Just looks the part in my opinion.

[mkman123]

how come TPGs still grade them ?

[michael]

Dipped coins - the older the coin (type), the sillier it looks, if color-free

 

(thumbs u

 

very sorry to say but still an enormously true statement nonetheless

[michael]

how come TPGs still grade them ?

 

oh my

 

my my my my my my my my my my

 

the slab factories are in the biz to make money by encouraging submissions so it becomes market acceptable for the services to slab more coins that are mostly well how can i say this?/ NOT MARKET ACCEPTABLE TO MY MINDS EYE

 

 

and as mark sayz the earlier the dipped coin the more sillier it looks--- i agree (thumbs u

 

and so the botton line is THIS new term coined by ?? within the last few years --------- market acceptable---------------- and the need to slab the overwhelming majority of coins submitted the good the bad and the ugly and more and more coins that would never have been slabbed pre 1998 are being put in holders more and more as market acceptable

 

by relaxing standards and adding that market acceptable caviet to the mix

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ more money and work for the slab FACTORY .

 

is this good or bad?? good for the knowledgable buyer as it is still a cloudless sky as they can choose correctly

 

bad for the unknowledgable buyer as they often choose coins that the knowledgable buywr would often pass on

 

 

be it end users or users that then turn around and sell the coin to someone else and the more unknowledgable the potential buyer is the more these ugly pigs get sold

 

if you choose to buy these slabbed so called market acceptable slop then there will be a day when a cloudy rainy storm will appear when you go to sell

 

AND MAKE DAMN SURE

 

you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! have your market acceptable standards set to a much higher level than the slab factories and the sellers pushing the slop in holders

 

choose wisely learn more before buying

 

 

good luck!!

[TomB]

Agree with the title statement. Also, the lower the grade, the sillier it looks if completely white.

[Conder101]

We all know that silver and copper tone and oxidize. Now while it is POSSIBLE for a 150, 200, 250 etc year old coin to still be white it is very unusual. So when we see one it doesn't match what out subconscious mind expects. It expects some color. If we don't see it our subconscious starts telling us something looks "odd" about the coin. Nothing specific, just a feeling that it doesn't look "right".

 

The newer the coin the less our mind "expects" color and so the less odd they appear.

[MarkFeld]

We all know that silver and copper tone and oxidize. Now while it is POSSIBLE for a 150, 200, 250 etc year old coin to still be white it is very unusual. So when we see one it doesn't match what out subconscious mind expects. It expects some color. If we don't see it our subconscious starts telling us something looks "odd" about the coin. Nothing specific, just a feeling that it doesn't look "right".

 

The newer the coin the less our mind "expects" color and so the less odd they appear.

 

Well said.

[delta]

Your thoughts?

Doesn't this discussion logically lead to the question of whether or not a positive determination can be made that a coin has been cleaned by erosive dipping? Can an original skin be definitively recognized? Will microscopic magnification perhaps reveal an original skin or proof of cleaning?

[James_OldeTowne]

Dipped coins - the older the coin (type), the sillier it looks, if color-free...

 

Different words, but exactly the sentiments I've expressed numerous times.

 

Yikes, am I allowed to change my opinion?

 

 

 

Definitely not!

 

But let's also consider the converse: this being 2012, would a 2012 Kennedy half with vibrant old-time Wayte Raymond album toning look silly?

[newprepper]

I might not be understanding this thread................but there are a billion ms morgans out there that are bright and shiny

[BillJones]

a question just popped into my head, if a coin is dipped, like a barber half, does it turn the whole thing white ?

 

It depends upon the type of toning that is on the coin. If the toning is really etched into coin, some of color will remain, and it often ugly. If the toning is light the coin might be all white. The is no hard and fast answer for this question.

 

As for dipped late 18th and 19th century coins, I tend to avoid early coins that white, but I do have a couple of pieces from the 1830s that are white, an 1831 quarter and an 1838 No Drapery dime. They do not bother me, given the prices I paid, but one guy here said that the quarter looks "silly." It is starting to tone in the slab so perhaps 30 or 40 years from now more people will like it.

 

Two points. First, the vast majority of old silver coins have been dipped or cleaned at some point. Many of these coins have re-toned and are now acceptable to many collectors as "original." Second, a dipped coin must grade at least AU-55 or higher, or it does look silly and is not something that I would have in my collection.

 

I am on an IPad and posting pictures is hard for me. If you would to see my dipped 1830s dime and quarter, you can access my type set via the links in my signature line.

[newprepper]

thanks bill, i need to look at a lot of things it seems

[TomB]

I might not be understanding this thread................but there are a billion ms morgans out there that are bright and shiny

 

Morgan dollars were stored in a manner that virtually no other contemporary coins were stored. That is, they were stored by the hundreds of thousands, or even by the millions, in US Mint bags where many coins sat for decades. The bags provided a storage medium whereby the coins against the burlap had a tendancy to tone, but those buried inside the bags had a high probability to stay white, or untoned. Therefore, quite a few Morgan dollars may have never seen dip, but they aren't toned to any great degree. Additionally, Morgan dollars are quite popular coins to dip white when they have unattractive, light toning and a large segment of the market loves these dipped white coins.