charlie Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 Back in the early seventies I joined a coin a month club that was run by a company that called themselves "FIRST COINVESTORS INC." They were located in Albertson, N.Y. The person most of my dealings were with was Stanley Apfelbaum. I bought a number of coins from them for about 11/2 years. My question is does anyone who also might have done business with them have an educated opinion on the quality of their coin grading. Most of the coins they sold me were called "gem bu". They looked pretty good to me at the time, but that was back when very few coins were graded and encapsulated. Any members who have had experience with them your opinion would be appreciated. Thanks Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthteller Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 Interesting history of an interesting company. Walter Breen worked for First Coinvestors in the late 50's and early 60's. Donn Pearlman has an interesting perspective on them and Stanley Apfelbaum in the following link. http://www.chicagocoinclub.org/projects/PiN/bub.html Look up www.google.com and put in First Coinvestors. A very interesting find. TRUTH GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jom Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 Most of the coins they sold me were called "gem bu". Uh...oh. jom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strat-migration Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 What a coincidence, I was just reading a book that had information about First Coinvestors. Apparently, they were quite active in the bu roll market. I remember seeing their ads many years ago, while reading Coinage and Numismatic News. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leothelion Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 Very intereating read this Sunday morning! And to this day, we still have millions of overgraded coins churned out by our TGC's! Becoming a smart buyer takes a great deal of time and most folks don't have that but rather have the money to burn. So they take their loses and move on! Only those few who get hurt financially enough have taken the road on grounds of principle to fight these crooks! And what they have done to help the hobby is usually lost in the greed until the new adventurers are ripped off again and if they stay around to really do something about it! They just might get a book on grading coins or send their coins to a grading service and so on. The percent of those who live and learn and stay with the hobby will be low! But as of now, there is a buzz going on with the less than educated public and coins are getting dumped on them. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AEATON-migration Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Great thread I have been using an investment company, I've been buying proof coins issued by the mint with Certificate of authenticity. No great deals, I'm afraid (or relieved). I am dubious about our local coin dealer - perhaps because his preference is clearly stamps. When I ask him Q's, he's really abrupt. I'm hoping that he just lacks people skills. I'm finding it really hard to buy over the net though - the risk is huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillJones Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 First Coinvestors was one of the really bad apples that ripped off collectors and investors shamelessly in the 1970s. Along about 1977 I taught a coin collecting course at a local junior college. One night I had the students bring in coins for a grading seminar. One of the students brought two Liberty Seated half dimes that he had bought from First Coinvestors. Both were sold to him has “Gem BU.” One piece has a slider (AU coin) that had been whizzed (cleaned to look bright with a wire brush) and the other had been plated with rhodium. The guy had paid like $50 each for coins circa 1970, which was the going price for nice Mint State pieces back then. If he had been sold what he had paid for, his coins would have been worth $100 each or so then, but he got ripped off. The coins were worth about $5 each. The conduct of the late Stanley Apfelbaum was enough to make me puke. He acknowledged that he had sold overgraded and damaged coins to collectors as “Gem BU” investment quality material. But he never offered to make things right by these people. Instead he hired experts like Walter Breen and Don Taxay to buy back his reputation. He also ran a series of ads in “Coin World” that were “to inform consumers” to win back their confidence that he really was a good guy. Sadly if you bought bad coins from First Coinvesters, you have nowhere to go. Apfelbaum is dead and the company is no more. Unfortunately my student who got ripped off by First Coinvesters did not learn his lesson. Later he and I had a discussion during which he told me that Franklin Mint issues were “great investments.” I tried to dissuade him of that opinion, but he won’t listen to me or one of my friends who had lost a lot of money on Franklin Mint material. Some people just won’t listen or learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadroch Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 In the fall of 1976,or 1977, I applied for a job in their Albertson HQ. They had placed a job notice in my schoos job center and I thought it would be great. I was a novice collector and as a freshman in college,didn't have a lot of real world business experiance,though I had been doing comic shows for a few years. Twenty minutes into my job,I was shown a vat to dip coins into. I asked if that was not supposed to damage the collector value,and was fired on the spot. Just thought I'd share that little tidbit. I wa really surprised when I read that W.Breen was going to work for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillJones Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Good story, shadroch! Maybe we should stay away from the subject of baseball and stick to coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadroch Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Hey, Most of my posts are half in jest. Its all good clean fun,until someone gets an eye poked out. One more thing about FCI. There was an absolute lack of security in the place. Open bags of siver dollars were everywhere, trays full of coins sat on desks,counter-tops,everywhere.No one seemed very concerned about inside theft. Of course,as I said,I was only there for less than a half a day,including my interview,but it certainly appeared that way to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie Posted July 9, 2004 Author Share Posted July 9, 2004 (edited) Bill, I only bought from them during 1971 & 1972. I wonder if it is possible that they ran an honest business early on and only got creative later on. I am going to try and attach a couple of scans to this post of two of the coins I bought from them. The nickel was "GEM BU" and the dollar was "BU". I am surprised at all the negative opinions about FCI. I didn't know they had such a bad reputation. To be honest though even knowing that, these coins look ok to me. I don't know if you can judge them from scans or not, but if anyone has an opinion about them I would like to know what it is. NICKEL OBV NICKEL REV DOLLAR OBV DOLLAR REV thanks Charlie Edited July 9, 2004 by charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthteller Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 Fortunately, your coins are not considered 'rare' and thus the 'gem bu' category would not be a factor in their overall value. The nickel appears to be MS65 to MS65 or 'gem' while your morgan dollar appears to be MS63 or 'choice' rather than 'gem'. However the value between the two grades for the dollar is under $100. TRUTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie Posted July 9, 2004 Author Share Posted July 9, 2004 Truthteller, Thanks for your opinion. I was just trying to determine if the grade they were sold to me as was in the ballpark. Those two were the only ones I had available to scan. The others are in my safe deposit box. I haven't seen them in awhile. I have to take a closer look at them soon. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearcat-migration Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 I also was ripped off by First Coinvestors, and also First Stampvestors. That's a double-whammy! The real Truth The German people could have stopped Hitler. We stopped Saddam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillJones Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 I agree with Truthteller. Your nickel MIGHT grade MS-65 if it has very nice luster. The dollar is no better than MS-63. It could be a bit less than that if there is a minor rub on Ms. Liberty's cheek and the eagle's breast feathers. According to my 1972 Red Book, which came out in the summer of 1971, the nickel had a retail value of $4.75 and the dollar retailed for $13.50. I'd be willing at wager that you paid a lot more than that for them from FCI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
numismel Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 I worked at First Coinvestors from 1972-4. I ran the gold coin division. I must have bought more 1907 High Relief Double Eagles than anyone else. These were all true gems and I sold them for about $2000 each. I never cleaned a coin there. One of my suppliers was a young kid named Jim Halperin who always had nice coins. He did pretty well in the coin business, and is now one of the heads of Heritage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 3 hours ago, numismel said: I worked at First Coinvestors from 1972-4. I ran the gold coin division. I must have bought more 1907 High Relief Double Eagles than anyone else. These were all true gems and I sold them for about $2000 each. I never cleaned a coin there. One of my suppliers was a young kid named Jim Halperin who always had nice coins. He did pretty well in the coin business, and is now one of the heads of Heritage. Who supplied the Omega counterfeits that come out of so many FCI "packages?" I presume others managed the coin laundry --- RonnieR131 and rrantique 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus1967 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Nice! The 16 year old thread has some legs left on it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1917 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Morpheus1967 said: Nice! The 16 year old thread has some legs left on it! only b/c a coinvester showed up to defend the company... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenlee47 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 On 7/5/2004 at 3:51 AM, AEATON-migration said: Great thread I have been using an investment company, I've been buying proof coins issued by the mint with Certificate of authenticity. No great deals, I'm afraid (or relieved). I am dubious about our local coin dealer - perhaps because his preference is clearly stamps. When I ask him Q's, he's really abrupt. I'm hoping that he just lacks people skills. I'm finding it really hard to buy over the net though - the risk is huge. Buy already graded. NGC, PCGS. ANACS that take the risk out of the net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus Arrius Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 This old posting has revived a lot of memories for me... the scandal at long since disbanded RIO COINS in New York after silver was removed from coins and NORTH WEST TERRITORIES Mint out west. But the biggest disappointment for me was that seemingly magical S.S. CENTRAL AMERICA recovery which ended with the imprisonment of the lead figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebeav Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 I remember getting constant mailings, perhaps a newsletter and catalog, from First Coinvestors. All I remember is that it was a lot of mail. I don't remember doing business with them though....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastaljerseyguy Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 I must have gotten lucky with coins from First Coinvestors. About 15 years ago I bid and won a 100 year 'Connoisseur Edition' commemorative 1878 set on EBAY for $159. It included an MS61 78S Vam 17a, MS62 78P Rev 78, and an MS63 78CC with this nice album. It was registered to a William Reeser. There weren't many bidders on the coins, maybe they had bad memories of First Convestors. I had never heard of them and this was one off my better buys on EBAY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
