So I called a major dealer today to inquire about an item on their site

[AnkurJ]

...

The item is priced in the 5 digit price range, so nothing to sneeze at.

I asked if they could email me better images, and was at first told, no this is all we have.

 

Questions:

1. Will you be at the ANA show?

Answer: Yes, but we will not be set up, the owner will be buying.

 

2. Ok, can he bring the coin so I can view it?

Answer: No, he does not bring any coins due to risk.

 

3. Ok, can the coin be sent on approval? I have stellar numismatic references.

Answer: No, we don't do that.

 

4. Ok, can I have a representative come to your office to review the coin in hand?

Answer: No, we dont do that.

 

Seems like making a 5 digit sale is not too important to them no? So the only way is to buy the coin, pay in full, recieve it. And if you dont like it return it. Frankly, I cant tie up that amount of money. They did send some less than stellar images though.

 

Sorry for the rant, but I found this to be amazing for a larger dealer to say. The dealer takes out big ads in Coin World magazine.

 

Rant over.

Ankur

 

UPDATE!

So I got an email this morning that they'd allow a representative to come look at the coin. So anyone in the Columbia, MD or Baltimore area I could contact?

[mkman123]

Poor customer service= no sale. Find something from someone else

[Raisethis2]

Sounds like big Dealer is probably not big on internet, wouldn't want a Linkedin page and would certainly never be sophisticated enough to have a Facebook page.

 

Like you said...........no customer service..........no sale.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

CIPAA - new law.

 

Coin Insurance Portability And Accountability Act.

 

They are obviously not compliant and also have a problem with the ECR - Electronic Customer Response- portion of the Act.

 

CBA -Coin Blog Approval- is required before any future sales, according to the Act.

 

Call the law ofices of Coiny Shyster, PA for representation in this matter.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[jom]

So that was YOU who called me earlier?

 

Actually, I know what you mean here. Even with a lot less money involved I've had similar responses from dealers.

 

I'm a bit surprised that with this business and it's small margins you'd actually get better customer service. Guess not.

 

jom

[James_OldeTowne]

I'm a bit surprised that with this business and it's small margins you'd actually get better customer service. Guess not.

John, I don't understand quite what you mean.

 

Small margins are what EVERY coin collector wants. Collectors are way too cheap to give dealers a 50% margin, or even a 30% margin. They bicker and dicker and whine and complain and beat dealers down to about an 8% to 10% margin. It's all about not letting dealers "make too much profit" on a coin.

 

So what does that mean? Lower margin means lower funds for hiring (qualified) help. Less help means poorer customer service.

 

At least, that is how I see it. And even though I'm working in the business now, the perspective I've just outlined is from a collector standpoint, where I've had 98% of my experience.

[James_OldeTowne]

...

The item is priced in the 5 digit price range, so nothing to sneeze at.

I asked if they could email me better images, and was at first told, no this is all we have.

 

Questions:

1. Will you be at the ANA show?

Answer: Yes, but we will not be set up, the owner will be buying.

 

2. Ok, can he bring the coin so I can view it?

Answer: No, he does not bring any coins due to risk.

 

3. Ok, can the coin be sent on approval? I have stellar numismatic references.

Answer: No, we don't do that.

 

4. Ok, can I have a representative come to your office to review the coin in hand?

Answer: No, we dont do that.

 

Seems like making a 5 digit sale is not too important to them no? So the only way is to buy the coin, pay in full, recieve it. And if you dont like it return it. Frankly, I cant tie up that amount of money. They did send some less than stellar images though.

 

Sorry for the rant, but I found this to be amazing for a larger dealer to say. The dealer takes out big ads in Coin World magazine.

 

Rant over.

Ankur

Let's pretend it's a $15,000 coin. Have you considered offering this dealer $200 for the right to a 2-week in-hand inspection? Maybe he'd do it, maybe not, but this would hardly be out of the realm of what's been done in the past by a truly motivated collectors.

[jom]

I'm a bit surprised that with this business and it's small margins you'd actually get better customer service. Guess not.

John, I don't understand quite what you mean.

 

Small margins are what EVERY coin collector wants. Collectors are way too cheap to give dealers a 50% margin, or even a 30% margin. They bicker and dicker and whine and complain and beat dealers down to about an 8% to 10% margin. It's all about not letting dealers "make too much profit" on a coin.

 

So what does that mean? Lower margin means lower funds for hiring (qualified) help. Less help means poorer customer service.

 

At least, that is how I see it. And even though I'm working in the business now, the perspective I've just outlined is from a collector standpoint, where I've had 98% of my experience.

 

OK, I'm not sure I was clear. Yes, collectors do beat down the dealer by bickering. That is the reason why, over the long term, it is a low margin business.

 

However, does that mean the dealer should be aloof and act like a d-bag? If that is OK, then isn't it a spiraling down situation? Where the collector sees this stubbornness on the part of the dealer and becomes even more difficult. I don't see how that makes it better. If you don't offer some customer service what is the POINT of being a dealer in the first place? I'm sure most collectors are perfectly capable of going to shows and auctions and buying their own coins, no? Who needs a dealer, right?

 

jom

[AnkurJ]

The coin is exactly $15000 James, and I'd it's what I'm looking for, I will pay the full asking price.

I will try what you suggested, but they don't seem to be very motivated to sell.

 

I mean not bringing a coin to a show they're attending due to security? What is he buying? Colorized ASE's?

[BROADSTRUCK]

I've hit a few brick walls like that over the years with certain dealers... When a first time tentative transaction is like pulling teeth I never inquire about any of their future listings.

[DaveG]

Ankur,

 

Frankly, you and Real One really crack me up sometimes.

 

Every successful coin dealer out there has a business model that works for him and no amount of jaw-boning by a prospective customer is going to get him to change it.

 

Find some dealers you like doing business with and ignore the rest of them, since it would be a very rare thing indeed if there were only one or two dealers who handled the material you're looking for.

 

You might even inquire of the dealers you do regular business with to see if any of them could get the coin you want on memo - that way you wouldn't be tying up your $15,000 while you looked at the coin.

 

 

Here's a story that illustrates my point:

 

Overheard Dealer A (a guy about 45 to 50 years old) speaking to Dealer B: "A few years ago I was talking to my (older) partner and he said that he wouldn't always be able to go to shows with me. I told my partner 'you have a pretty good life - you only deal in the coins you like and with the customers you like.' My partner said 'that's right - I'm semi-retired.' "

 

So, says Dealer A, "I went home that night and told my wife - 'I'm semi-retired; from now on I'm only going to deal in the coins I like and with the customers I like.' And I've been happy as a clam ever since."

 

 

Now, do you think you have a snowball's chance of getting this guy to change his business model for you?

 

 

edited to add: Personally, I do business with about five guys at the Parsippany show (a show of around 80 - 100 dealers). When I used to go to Baltimore, I found myself doing business with the same five guys, plus three or four others.

 

Numismatics is a pretty big world - there's lots of dealers to choose from.

[TomB]

That's nuts.

[$ilverHawk]

...

The item is priced in the 5 digit price range, so nothing to sneeze at.

I asked if they could email me better images, and was at first told, no this is all we have.

 

Questions:

1. Will you be at the ANA show?

Answer: Yes, but we will not be set up, the owner will be buying.

 

2. Ok, can he bring the coin so I can view it?

Answer: No, he does not bring any coins due to risk.

 

3. Ok, can the coin be sent on approval? I have stellar numismatic references.

Answer: No, we don't do that.

 

4. Ok, can I have a representative come to your office to review the coin in hand?

Answer: No, we dont do that.

 

Seems like making a 5 digit sale is not too important to them no? So the only way is to buy the coin, pay in full, recieve it. And if you dont like it return it. Frankly, I cant tie up that amount of money. They did send some less than stellar images though.

 

Sorry for the rant, but I found this to be amazing for a larger dealer to say. The dealer takes out big ads in Coin World magazine.

 

Rant over.

Ankur

 

Real world interpretation as I see it.

 

1. We are only concerned with buying at the ANA show.

 

2. The owner wants to travel light because this is a buying trip.

 

3. We don't know you and some kind of security would be needed before we would send the coin to you.

 

4. We can't be troubled with actually taking the time to have a second party look at the coin we are selling.

 

Summation, we are a large national dealer, with a large national presence and can not be troubled with actually caring about your concept of customer service. It's our way or the highway.

 

Ankur,

 

If you want this coin you will have to play by the rules of the seller. Otherwise, don't waste your time. Unless this is a very unique offering, wait it out. Another coin will come available or due to the attitude of the dealer that same coin may be acquired for a lower price. Dealers have to turn inventory.

 

I think James suggestion of offering a refundable deposit may be a viable alternative.

 

Carl

[newprepper]

I have no experience with coin dealers yet, but generally, as size of business goes up, customer service goes down. You usually have to get to a supervisor to get anything done, especially with that kind of price tag, do they deal with any dealers in your area? If so they may ship to them. I like to use the golden arches as example, when they first started they made burgers, fast, good. Then they started adding to the menu, now its so bloated, nothing is fast, not much is good. Just my opinion

[Bruceswar]

That's nuts.

 

I agree 100%

[AnkurJ]

Dave G,

Odd that I didnt think this was a comic routine.

 

If you are a dealer, you should accomodate things WITHIN REASON. Isnt coming to ones office to look at a $15,000 coin within reason? I sure think it is. If the dealer considers himself purely a mail order company, than it should be clearly written on the website. Or when they will be in the SAME ROOM as a potential client, one slab doesnt seem to weigh that much.

 

In any case, If they cannot be a bit more accomodating, I will pass and move on. One thing I have learned in collecting is that there will always be other coins to buy.

 

Ankur

[MJ]

If you really want the coin have John call and vouch for you. If that don't work just cut bait. Personally I wouldn't have given this a second thought after hearing back from them. I would have no longer been interested.

 

MJ

[Keigwin]

Move on, Ankur. Too many red flags.

Lance.

[e1cnr]

Did you ask about their return options- so you can buy it for your inspection

and if not as great as you think could be, return it

[tenacious]

Personally I would have moved on. There's plenty of other coins from other reasonable dealers to spend my money on.

 

BTW, care to out this hard to deal with dealer?

[James_OldeTowne]

The coin is exactly $15000 James, and I'd it's what I'm looking for, I will pay the full asking price.

I will try what you suggested, but they don't seem to be very motivated to sell.

 

I mean not bringing a coin to a show they're attending due to security? What is he buying? Colorized ASE's?

I wish you the best in this endeavor!

 

I believe most folks on the boards realize that I strongly support and endorse the collector perspective. But the hobby has become so overwhelmingly "price driven" that we forget to take a step back and realize what impact there is the constant beat-down on pricing from both sides.

 

Incidentally, other possibilities are that the subject dealer has the coin "on memo", or maybe the coin is currently out to another potential buyer, or maybe it's a partnership coin. Who knows? The dealer isn't using the tact I would use, BUT there are many ways to manage a successful and profitable business, and maybe this person really does know what he is doing.

[EVillageProwler]

It's too bad that fat dealers ATS perpetuate this skulduggery and refuse to stop the chicanery. Where are my meds?

 

 

EVP

[lcoopie]

It's his store and his rules.

 

You are right, you ranted.

[Conder101]

They bicker and dicker and whine and complain and beat dealers down to about an 8% to 10% margin. It's all about not letting dealers "make too much profit" on a coin.

And then if they are in a state that charges sales taxes on coins they don't want to pay the tax so the dealer would have to pay them out of his profits. Dicker the dealer down to 10% and then he has to pay the states 7% tax leaves him with 3% profit margin.

 

 

I think the real problem was that AnkurJ obviously knows too much. What this dealer is looking for is someone with more money than knowledge who will just order the coin an keep it no matter what it really looks like just based on the description. Why because he doesn't know any better. (Many dealers who take out the big flashy ads in Coin World do not have a good reputation among knowledgeable collectors.)

[BillJones]

I've had a similar experience with a large coin firm. You just have to ignore it and move on.

 

I contacted them about a 1796 No Stars quarter eagle they had. I knew where the coin had last been sold at a public auction, and how much they paid for it if they were the buyers. Given the price, they were going to do quite well if they sold it for their advertised price (a 25%+ mark-up). From the picture the piece might not have worked for me, but one never knows for sure until you have actually seen the coin. They were not taking tables at any the major shows, like Baltimore, and they even indicated that they were not that easy to find at the FUN show.

 

The bottom line was there was no way I was going to see that coin unless I advanced a 6 figure sum, and that was out of the question. After I did buy a 1796 No Stars, they called me and asked if I'd found one. When I told them I had they sounded a bit disappointed.

 

Well, when you are trying to sell a luxury good for high price, you need to be willing to bend a little, and they weren't ready to do that. So they didn't get the chance to make a sale.

 

[bsshog40]

I don't see any reason why a dealer wouldn't at least let someone come by and inspect the coin. What harm could that have been if it was a possible $15,000 sale. Kind of reminds me of those telephone type sellers who have no office and only rely on those who will just send them the money no questions asked. Then, if the coin doesn't turn out to be up to your standards, you'll be fighting with them the next 6 months to get your money back. I say "Move On".

[AnkurJ]

So I got an email this morning that they'd allow a representative to come look at the coin. So anyone in the Columbia, MD or Baltimore area I could contact?

[BillJones]

Most coins that sell for $15,000 usually are not that hard to duplicate these days. It's sad that prices are that out of control, but true. If you were talking about a token or medal, that's a different story because that kind of money usually buys a major rarity.

 

I would not stand on my head for these people given they are handling this. I know, I know everything has to have a "green bean," and that makes it harder, but still ...

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I am curious as to how a person can definitively establish that prices are out of control.

 

What is the comparison/timeline/evaluation/actuarial process that can support a controlled vs. non-controlled price point?

 

Very interested in learning...

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[BillJones]

I am curious as to how a person can definitively establish that prices are out of control.

 

What is the comparison/timeline/evaluation/actuarial process that can support a controlled vs. non-controlled price point?

 

Very interested in learning...

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

 

I'm relating to the 1980s, 1990s and even the early 2000s. I've been a collector for over 50 years, and the prices now are staggering for most really nice material.

 

Back in the day, the "sweet spot" for nice collector grade coins was in the $500 to $2,500 range. Within that range you could buy a lot of collector grade coins in grades ranging from VF to the low Mint State grades. Now, with exception of some "dead areas." like "old" commemorative silver coins, having $500 to $2,500 to spend hardly even gets you in the door.

 

Middle class incomes have not gone up as fast the prices for nice collector coins. Time was you could buy a nice Bust dollar for $1,500 now the same coin is a few thousand.

 

I have more resources than most collectors, but I still see the pinch. I don't know what a really dedicated collector does these days given the prices. I guess he has to settle for less, and that's too bad.

 

Edited to add:

 

Years ago $15,000 bought a nice certified Chain cent in EF. Today it buys a fairly ugly one with problems. The same could be said for a 1796 Quarter.

 

Even a major dealer like Tony Terranova has said the same thing to me about coins on his level (in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.) You money just does not buy much, and it is hard to relate these prices.

 

I hope I've made the context of my remark clear.