Why do so many folks confuse "key date" with "rare date"?

[James_OldeTowne]

To me, the key(s) are simply the scarcest handful of dates that complete a series. They need not be "rare", however you choose to define that term, but even a relatively easy-to-find coin can be a key to it's respective set.

 

Speaking of only normal, average UNC coins, for example, the 1949-S Franklin is not remotely rare, yet most would recognize it as the key to its set. The 1916-D dime IS rare (again in UNC) and is the key to its set.

 

We all know that 1949-S halves far outnumber 1916-D dimes, but that doesn't diminish the status of either as a key.

 

Does it ?

[AnkurJ]

Because many key dates are rare. Personally I dont consider consider most coins from 1900 onward to be truly rare unless you include the 1933 Double Eagle and 1913 Nickel.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Perception and cost are the very individual human factors in determining both categories, I think.

 

But (blah,blah) what do I know....

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[jom]

Because many key dates are rare. Personally I don't consider consider most coins from 1900 onward to be truly rare unless you include the 1933 Double Eagle and 1913 Nickel.

 

I agree with this. There isn't an auction that goes by you don't see a 16-D dime or 16 SLQ or 11-D Quarter eagle. They are expensive, no doubt. Another words: "I can find one but I probably can't afford one". These are the traditional "blank holes" in coin boards I suppose.

 

Added to this are the conditional rarities. Are these key? I guess it depends. "Do I have to have that 18-D FB dime or can I just get away with a nicely (albiet not-full) strike example?"

 

I guess the "key" is sort of like finishing the steep part of a long jog. Once you get past it the rest of the run is easy.....

 

jom

[Coincrazed74]

Yeah the 1916-D Merc is certainly available! Coins like the 1809 XB Dime or 1901-S Quarter are truly rare! Thanks for the info here guys, very interesting discussion!

[BillJones]

Yeah the 1916-D Merc is certainly available!

 

It's available if you are looking for one in AG. The other grades, especially "true" VF and EF are lot a harder. I suspect that the pieces in Fine to Mint State find loving homes and stay there for a while while the AGs go from one dealer's case to another.

[RWB]

To me, this terminology comes from the time when complete sets of coins could be assembled from circulation. Certain coins were “key” to completing a set because they were difficult to find in circulation, not that they were intrinsically scarce or rare.

 

Treasury documents show more requests by collectors for 1931-S cents than any other cent from 1909 to 1939. Even Treasury Secretary Morgenthau had to buy one from a local dealer to send to his coin-collecting nephew.

[mkman123]

Rwb hit it on the nail.

[Walkerfan]

This makes me think of the 1921-S WLH in MS 64. They come up for auction quite regularly, so they may not be rare, although, it may also be that the people that own them are constantly reselling them, as they don't want that much money tied up for a long period of time. Most coins below MS 64 are ugly and flat, anyway. It is definitely a KEY, though, and although it may not be RARE for a select few--it sure is for me, b/c I don't have 40K to throw at one!

[michael]

Why do so many folks confuse "key date" with "rare date"?

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

 

[Oldtrader3]

Even since man developed a bicameral brain two thousand years ago, one that was able to communicate to both sides of the brain conciously instead of thorough dreams, man had sorted things that they collect into common, not so common, hard to find and rare, That catagories change as the actual scarcity of goods availibility changes over time.

 

Most collectors do not own one rare date or even scarce date coins except relatively promoted coins which will be worth less when the promotion is over, like 1950 nickels. Almost no one owns an 1870-S half eagle in any grade and would not know how to grade that coin anyway.

 

Rare is personal and meaningless in the real sense to most collectors of really rare coins.

[Crazy Mtn Coins]

To me rare relates to population and/or grade. Whereas key relates to completion of a set and is related to rarity, cost and personal preference. One coin by itself is not a key date, but it can be very rare.

[coinman_23885]

"Key dates" are usually much more expensive than the rest of the set, and people tend to associate higher premiums with rarity regardless of whether it is actually true or not.

[World Colonial]

The answer to your last question is, no it does not.

 

To the first question, I agree that some people use the terms interchangeably but more often, I believe it is because most people do not collect ACTUALLY rare coins and never have.

 

There is also a difference between rarity and availability. Going back to the 1916-D dime, I do not consider that coin remotely rare even in MS. The last time I checked the NGC census, there were several hundred in MS-60 or better. I presume that there are some duplicates because of its price but this data does not even include PCGS which I also expect has at least as many, if not more. These coins may not be as available as the census indicates but no coin with several hundred MS is really rare.

 

Some coins probably also appear to be scarcer that they actually are because of their price. Though I believe that the world coin series I collect are much scarcer than most US coins, they are probably more of them around than what I see, especially since those who own the few better specimens probably cannot be bothered to sell them for the mostly pitiful amounts they are currently worth. There would be no point to it.

 

I recall reading once that that John J. Ford (who owned many actually rare coins) stated that any coin that could be bought with a phone call was not rare. That applies to most US coins because they are disproportionately expensive versus others and it would also apply to many (if not also most) world coins if they were worth more. From what I have seen, even many coins with relatively few survivors are available. An example of that would be the 1884 Bolivia proof 10 centavo in the next S&B which has a reported mintage of 12. I have probably seen this issue three or four times since I resumed collecting 1998 and that represents an ample opportunity to buy such a specimen.

[Oldtrader3]

I beg to differ, any coin which actually has a mintage of (12) would not appear 3-4 times in 14 years at auction unless one person owned all of them or it is the same coin which is overgraded and is being churned in the market.

 

There are quite a few US gold coins which can not be purchased with a phone call or by any other common means of coin buying. These coins are closely held by deep pocketed advanced collectors who do not sell collections until they die or have gone through a couple of generations.

 

For one thing, most people realize that official population numbers only reflect the bounce of coins through the market, not the actual population at all.

[Conder101]

I beg to differ, any coin which actually has a mintage of (12) would not appear 3-4 times in 14 years at auction unless one person owned all of them or it is the same coin which is overgraded and is being churned in the market.

How many times have an 1804 dollar or a 1913 V Nickel change hands in the last 14 years?

[coinman1794]

To me, the key(s) are simply the scarcest handful of dates that complete a series. They need not be "rare", however you choose to define that term, but even a relatively easy-to-find coin can be a key to it's respective set.

 

Speaking of only normal, average UNC coins, for example, the 1949-S Franklin is not remotely rare, yet most would recognize it as the key to its set. The 1916-D dime IS rare (again in UNC) and is the key to its set.

 

We all know that 1949-S halves far outnumber 1916-D dimes, but that doesn't diminish the status of either as a key.

 

Does it ?

 

At this point in time, there are enough Franklins on the marketplace that there is no single key date (unless you are talking about FBL, in which case it is 1953-S). They are all readily available.

 

To address the question, many key dates are in higher demand than other dates in a series, thus they can be harder to get and more expensive, just as if they were rare dates. The 1955 DDO 1C is a prime example.

[World Colonial]

I cannot explain to you why this coin has sold as many times as I recall, only that it has. The two instances I specifically remember are this last Stacks & Bowers sale and one by Heritage.

 

As to whether the 1884 bolivia proof is actually the same coin, maybe I do not know. I have seen a decent number of coins which are about as rare as this one (from one to two dozen or even fewer) which have sold multiple times and then others I have never seen.

 

Generically, I agree that many really rare coins seem to be held by "deep pockets" but the reason I believe this happens is because the value of the coin is actually too low to make it worthwhile selling given its rarity. This is not an issue for US coins but I believe it to be so for the world coins I collect.

 

Though the coins I collect (such as Spanish colonial pillar minors, South African Union and 19th Bolivian Republic decimals) are generally scarcer or a lot scarcer than most US coins, there have got to be more of them out there - somewhere. This is invariably true even of many (most?) ancient coins where I have seen decent size selections in high condition on occassion.

 

Just this weekend, I was scanning the world coin listings in the Heritage archives back in the 1990's. I did so because I was performing a Google search for the 1732 Mexico pillar 4 reales (one of the top rarities of the entire series) and unknown to me, Heritage sold one back in May 1996 for about $9300. No picture was available but they described it as an "XF possible sea salvage".

 

Yes, this price was 16 years ago but given that this coin is literally almost impossible to find, I don't think those who owned the few that exist at that time would have usually been interested in selling. Now, maybe because the plate coin (defintely a high grade MS) in my reference manual must be worth at least $250,000 which is not a big deal by US coin standards but is for other coins.

[mumu]

What rubs me is how some series have more than one key date depending on who you ask. The term key should be like in a keystone in masonry, there can only be one keystone. Now whether just supply or both supply and demand should be used to determine this is the million dollar question.

 

Take the Peace dollar series for example. 1921 1928 and 1934S are all always listed as keydates. Now lets ignore the matter of whether the 1921 is its own type for the matter of simplicty. If you go solely by mintage then the 1928 is the clear key here. Yet in MS grades the 34S is clearly the hardest to obtain. Then the 21 brings up the rear with that first year issue appeal to back up its demand.

[RWB]

Lots of folks get their left and right feet confused - and they've had them all their lives!

[World Colonial]

By my definition at least, there can be more than one "key" date though some are more "key" than others with this being variable upon the grade also..

 

In the South Africa Union series, there are many "key" date business strikes in the shilling, two shilling (florin) and 2 1/2 shillings (half crown) denominations. They are "key" in the sense that they are actually dificult to find as I describe them and it is not a matter of having money to pay for them.

 

Using the shillings as an example, the most "key" date is the 1931. It is very occasionally available in very low grades but the best of the five in the combined census is a single XF-45.

 

The 1926, 1927, 1928, 1944 and 1946 are "key" in any decent grade and rare in AU or MS. There are no MS recorded for the 1944, few of the others and also few for any of these dates in decent grade.

 

Some of the other dates could also be considered "key" in MS, such as the 1930, 1945 and 1947. Many of the other dates are available in MS and sometimes in better MS grades but not easily so.

 

And for those who do not know, the SA census is larger than any other country excluding the US, even not considering moderns such the Mandela issues. So though I believe that more are available than other SA collectors I know, generically it is not just because of low submission volumes.

 

 

[mintcollector]

To me, the key(s) are simply the scarcest handful of dates that complete a series. They need not be "rare", however you choose to define that term, but even a relatively easy-to-find coin can be a key to it's respective set.

 

Speaking of only normal, average UNC coins, for example, the 1949-S Franklin is not remotely rare, yet most would recognize it as the key to its set. The 1916-D dime IS rare (again in UNC) and is the key to its set.

 

We all know that 1949-S halves far outnumber 1916-D dimes, but that doesn't diminish the status of either as a key.

 

Does it ?

 

From a coin collecting perspective I fully understand and concur. That being said, as someone highly involved in the antiques and collectibles trade I can tell you that the average collector (of anything) does not truly understand the term 'rare.'

 

Many will say that 'rare' is a relative term. However, when discussing items that are mass-produced, I always have to roll my eyes when someone tells me that something made in the thousands, let alone the near millions is 'rare.'

 

Going back to the topic of numismatics, I never really considered the difference between a 'rare' date and a 'key' date so I do thank you for defining this. This is a very interesting topic for discussion.

 

Kind Regards,

 

'mint'

 

 

[yonico]

It's funny that What people call "key dates" are coins that are usually readily available for sale at almost all grades.

 

In MS65, you can buy 1921 and 1928 peace dollars pretty easily, but try to find a 25-S. Or a 28-S. Or a 34-S.

1909-S VDB cent? The next "S" cents ( 1910-S, 11-S, 12-S, 13-S, 14-S, 15-S and 16-S) are a lot harder to find in 65, but still are not considered as "rare" as the 09-S VDB.

Same with the 16-D/21/21-D mercury dimes - against a 24-S, or 26-S.

 

And about the Franklin half comments. 1949-D is maybe considered a "key", but I find it a lot harder to find a 1950-D that pleases me.

[Proudtoown]

This is what I have learned about key vs rare. I learned this during my 30+ years of comic collecting.

 

I got the Gerber guides, and started amassing rare comics. IE. 11-20 known to exist, 20-50 known to exist. Just one example, I bought a 1940's Doc Savage Comics Vol 2 number 3, only 11-20 known to exist. I picked it up from a major national comics dealer for $55. I held it for about 10 years and sold it for about $330 I think. So I made a pretty good profit, but with it being rare, I assumed it should be worth more. But, it would be a key issue, plus it took years to find. Then I learned a little more about economics and supply and demand. Thus, an Amazing Fantasy #15 (key issue however not rare, you can always find one on ebay or a major dealer) is worth multiple times the Doc Savage, even if there are more AF#15s available. More people collecte the spidermans than Doc Savage.

 

I guess its the same with some of the early coins. It might take you years to find one (rare) but more collected pieces would far out cost them. Thus rare does not equal value.