Standing Liberty Quarter plaster designs at ANA Stacks auction

[AnkurJ]

How cool are these?

 

http://stacksbowers.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=370381

 

http://stacksbowers.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=370382

 

I love the dolphins on this one:

 

Ankur

[dimefreak]

Gotta hand it to Stacks Bowers. They put something for everyone in this auction! Last year all I could remember is the Guttag Commems. Very impressed this year

[mumu]

Those have been duck billed dolphins this whole time?

[RWB]

There are two bronze casts and two plaster models in the sale.

 

The one shown was actually approved for use by Secretary McAdoo in late August 1916, but then the mint reverted to its own versions of MacNeil's May 1916 designs.

 

[HCumberdale]

The dolphins look very similar to the dolphin on the Italian 5 lire starting in 1951 and ending with the use of the Euro in 2001.

 

I don't recall dolphins on any other US coinage, anyone know what they were supposed to represent?

[AnkurJ]

The pan pac gold pieces have dolphins on them.

[mumu]

Might be a dolphin bodied duck?

[RWB]

Atlantic and Pacific

[L1ncolnF4n]

They're pretty cool in hand...and big!

 

@RWB if that's true, that's awesome symbolism, learn something every day in this field!

[HCumberdale]

Atlantic and Pacific

 

 

Very cool. Thanks for the info!

[jom]

Yeah, I saw those yesterday as well. Pretty cool.

 

The pattern SLQ in the sale was nice as well...historically important too. Although, I like the design they chose better....

 

jom

[RWB]

Judd-1988 (1916 pattern) was the initial design submitted by MacNeil - stars on the obverse and laurel on the reverse. The models were not as flat and lifeless as the first set of pattern pieces made at the Philadelphia Mint. Some of these have the fields polished as performed by engraver Barber to increase the visual contrast.

 

Note that the part of the description about Comstock and controversy is totally false and nothing but BS! It's a shame S/B would permit that kind of falsehood in their catalog - especially for a high profile pattern coin.

 

[RWB]

I was asked for justification for the "totally false" comment, above. Here are just a few things from hands-on research (not copy-cat stuff from the internet).

 

There is absolutely no evidence of any objection to the figure of liberty on the 1916 or 1917 quarter. No letters to Congress (or Mint ot Treasury or President or Commission of Fine Arts or newspaper editors), no letters from offended citizens, petitions or anything else supporting the wildly_fanciful_statement in the description. There is nothing in the archives… and Anthony Comstock was dead.

 

“But, but…it must have been suppressed,” some might say.

"Sure, and there be mermaids, too!"

 

Why do we find lots of letters objecting to the sword on the 1921 Peace dollar, or letters complaining about the lack of IGWT on the $10, or letters and telegrams complaining about the buffalo nickel? These seem like good candidates for suppression? Reality is that the “bare breast controversy” was the figment of some pervert who invented it for his own amusement or advantage. Others copied it, embellished it at will and presented it as “truth” without ever checking for facts. Original sources have been checked and exist for anyone to see for themselves.

 

There are letters of objection to the SL quarter design - they deal with the eagle and the position of the talons. That issue was international in scope and ended up in Director Woolley’s unpublished autobiography. (Library of Congress) If readers look in Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921 they will find additional material including why the type two design of 1917 was adopted.

 

I have published the research information multiple times and Coin World has also done so.

 

Numismyths are just that: myths. Enjoy them, but never present them as facts.

 

 

[RWB]

...as for the auctions---there are a bunch of great coins in addition to the models and casts. As has been shown repeatedly, buying quality for the long-term has advantages.

[dcarr]

Dolphins - "Sea to Shining Sea" - Just like on Weinman's 1904 St. Louis Expo medals.

 

PS:

Whoever wins this item, if you loan it to me I'll make actual-size coins from it.

I remember when this same item sold a few years ago at auction. At the time, there was also an alternate reverse design galvano sold. It would be neat to use both to make a "re-strike".

 

[MarkFeld]

Dolphins - "Sea to Shining Sea" - Just like on Weinman's 1904 St. Louis Expo medals.

 

PS:

Whoever wins this item, if you loan it to me I'll make actual-size coins from it.

I remember when this same item sold a few years ago at auction. At the time, there was also an alternate reverse design galvano sold. It would be neat to use both to make a "re-strike".

 

I believe that the latter piece you mentioned might be in the current sale as well?

[Buffalo Head]

Love at first sight!! I can see this hanging on my wall....

[James_OldeTowne]

Appears to have full-head details.

[RWB]

A little more about the obverse design.

 

The chain motif just inside the rim represents unity from Pacific to Atlantic (dolphins). Liberty strides forward through an opening in the wall that separates freedom from oppression. She turns her head to the viewer’s right, toward Europe (the Atlantic dolphin), and holds her shield protectively in that direction. In her right hand is a sprig of olive offering peace, but the spacing suggests that peace must come after protection (i.e.: a willingness to fight an aggressor). The motto IGWT is placed as a connector between peace and Liberty and reminds one that free expression of faith is fundamental to liberty. Liberty wears her hair in a braided style current at that time. The free locks loop behind her head and the wind blows them to her left, again toward Europe.

 

The figure of Liberty is not a person but an ideal symbolized by the classical figure and dress. She is Athena/Minerva in a modern setting of allegory. Similar figures, often partially clad, appear in art and popular images. There was nothing salacious about allegorical and classical bodies. Only when applied to identifiable persons was nudity considered improper – and even then, there were public and private standards.

 

Nearly every new coin design has been accompanied by some sort of temporary, and often contrived, controversy. Newspapers competed for readers by printing “news” first – even if it was really opinion, or simply invented. Weinman’s Liberty head dime of 1916 drew a very small number of letters objecting to his initials. Multiple newspapers picked up the initial story and it quickly grew to a “controversy” through repetition – not through actual numbers of objections.

 

The broken sword on the Peace dollar took an opposite course. Here, a brief editorial comment was republished in other newspapers, and the editorial and its copies generated several thousand individual objections. No one at the newspapers had seen the design with broken sword, but the concept symbolized defeat to many veterans and others. The controversy was real, and the mint changed the reverse design in response to public objections.

 

The point I make is that facts are often more interesting than the numismyths some choose to weave, but facts require a lot of hard work to discover.

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

A little more about the obverse design.

 

The chain motif just inside the rim represents unity from Pacific to Atlantic (dolphins). Liberty strides forward through an opening in the wall that separates freedom from oppression. She turns her head to the viewers right, toward Europe (the Atlantic dolphin), and holds her shield protectively in that direction. In her right hand is a sprig of olive offering peace, but the spacing suggests that peace must come after protection (i.e.: a willingness to fight an aggressor). The motto IGWT is placed as a connector between peace and Liberty and reminds one that free expression of faith is fundamental to liberty. Liberty wears her hair in a braided style current at that time. The free locks loop behind her head and the wind blows them to her left, again toward Europe.

 

The figure of Liberty is not a person but an ideal symbolized by the classical figure and dress. She is Athena/Minerva in a modern setting of allegory. Similar figures, often partially clad, appear in art and popular images. There was nothing salacious about allegorical and classical bodies. Only when applied to identifiable persons was nudity considered improper and even then, there were public and private standards.

 

Nearly every new coin design has been accompanied by some sort of temporary, and often contrived, controversy. Newspapers competed for readers by printing news first even if it was really opinion, or simply invented. Weinmans Liberty head dime of 1916 drew a very small number of letters objecting to his initials. Multiple newspapers picked up the initial story and it quickly grew to a controversy through repetition not through actual numbers of objections.

 

The broken sword on the Peace dollar took an opposite course. Here, a brief editorial comment was republished in other newspapers, and the editorial and its copies generated several thousand individual objections. No one at the newspapers had seen the design with broken sword, but the concept symbolized defeat to many veterans and others. The controversy was real, and the mint changed the reverse design in response to public objections.

 

The point I make is that facts are often more interesting than the numismyths some choose to weave, but facts require a lot of hard work to discover.

 

Is what appears to me to be a more agressive/determined expression of the Pacific dolphin when compared to the Atlantic dolphin intentional?

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[RWB]

I think it is just the lighting. The photos made when the piece was discovered show the dolphins are nearly identical. (Although both remind me of Donald Duck....)

[delta]

Just a note to express appreciation to RWB for sharing his sterling research and terrific analysis, which suddenly makes SLQs very much more interesting to me. They previously were totally unappealing for the following reason: when I was a kid, there were still a few SLQs in circulation, and they were invariably so worn down that the design could barely be discerned, and that caused me to develop the impression they were weakly designed, and therefore not worth examining. Related to that was the feeling that SLQs were somehow more prone to erosion in circulation than other coins, a topic which may have general merit, even if not applicable in this case.

 

If the high points of the devices of a coin are relatively small in area, those prominences will tend to be eroded more quickly than high devices of coins with larger areas evenly distributed. There is also the matter of how much total surface area of the coin is field and how much is devices, with the apparent inescapable conclusion that the less total area is given to devices, the faster those devices will tend to be worn down. Could this possibly apply to SLQs?

[RWB]

The mint was pleased to get rid of the SLQ design in 1932. A full length figure never looks good on such a small coin. I agree about the wear and design.

 

When I was a kid, I thought it was a lady carrying a sack of coal or maybe potatoes.

 

[delta]

When I was a kid, I thought it was a lady carrying a sack of coal or maybe potatoes.

 

Reconstructing my mind-set from long ago, I very distinctly recall assuming the figure on the worn SLQs was a man, rather than a woman.