1964-D Research - Foot-in-Mouth Disease. PCGS author will make revisions.

[RWB]

A few weeks ago comments were made about factual errors in an NGC article on the Saint-Gaudens gold coins. (NGC has not, as yet, made the corrections.) Now it’s PCGS turn.

 

An article titled 1964-D Peace Dollars - Do They Really Exist? by Jaime Hernandez (May 21, 2012), one of PCGS' committee of experts, is so filled with error, ancient assumption and "copy-cat" imitation-research, that it would appear to be a major embarrassment to the sponsors.

 

For those who want to know the reality of the 1964-D Peace dollar, see Whitman’s A Guide Book for Peace Dollars. There is a detailed chapter on this coin, its origins and more-or-less final disposition.

 

 

[JStull]

With so many, and well researched I might add, books out there, and Whitman seems to have the majority of the best and by the best, I don't understand how either TPG can make such blatant errors.

[RWB]

Folks like David W. Lange, at NGC, were initiators of modern, fact-based research. Many of the new numismatic books build on that work and in the process correct huge amounts of old, wrong information. (The excellent book on the first US Mint by Orroz and Augsberger is a direct outgrowth of Lange's US Mint & Coinage book.)

 

But we continue to see collectors misinformed by auction companies, dealer web sites - and even the TPGs - that either don't bother to check new research or simply don't care.

[rrantique]

http://www.coinweek.com/us-coins/what-really-happened-to-the-1964-denver-mint-peace-dollars/

[coinman_23885]

Thanks for the link.

[RWB]

Michael Lantz was a direct contributor to the Peace Dollar book and reviewed much of the research material. He was not a contributor to PCGS' erroneous article.

 

Also, the book’s co-author, Barry Lovvorn, interviewed every living ex Denver Mint employee from 1963-1966 for the Whitman book.

 

[erwindoc]

I have your book and its a great resource! Thanks for taking your time to put it together.

[jerseycat10]

Another plug?

[RWB]

Hmmm...since the Whitman Guide Book of Peace Dollars is the ONLY published source of the latest research information, it's more of a necessity. Anyway, nothing was mentioned about where to buy the Guide Book of Peace Dollars or cost of Guide Book of Peace Dollars or anything related to sales of Guide Book of Peace Dollars.

[jerseycat10]

Hmmm...since the Whitman Guide Book of Peace Dollars is the ONLY published source of the latest research information, it's more of a necessity. Anyway, nothing was mentioned about where to buy the Guide Book of Peace Dollars or cost of Guide Book of Peace Dollars or anything related to sales of Guide Book of Peace Dollars.

 

If you are that concerned about correcting the erroneous information, why don't you supply the correct information here rather than sourcing a book, which would imply that someone would have to buy it to learn the truth.

 

FYI: I own the book, somehow got it for $5 when it first came out from APMEX. I enjoy the book very much, though there are some errors in it (MS69 Peace?), and some commentary that I feel has no place in a book of reference.

[disme]

If you are that concerned about correcting the erroneous information, why don't

you supply the correct information here rather than sourcing a book, which would

imply that someone would have to buy it to learn the truth.

 

Unfortunately the poster does not understand the realities of research. It would

take a considerable amount of time and space, especially time, to explain the

intricacies of a given problem in the current forum. It is already in printed form,

the point made in the original post.The advice given by RWB is correct, that the

author of the criticized article has an obligation to obtain the necessary literature.

 

[jerseycat10]

Just playing devils advocate here, but since both parties have done a certain amount of research, who's to say that RWB's information is more factually correct than someone elses research-derived information?

[RWB]

A primary author of the book, I take full responsibility for the book – pros and cons. I have done the hands-on research into original documents and related materials. Within limits of the publisher and the anticipated audience, all of the material is laid out for any skeptic to follow. (If you will go to the three Renaissance books you will find copious source citations. Interestingly, one writer actually checked them for one of the books. He found everything plus one typo. You can also check out the 4-DVD set of Annual Assay Commission meeting minutes from about 1800 to 1943. Again, you will find source citations that take you to the precise volumes in the National Archives.) I encourage anyone who disagrees with the material or conclusions to go to the archival sources, read them for yourself, and form you own conclusions.

 

Any book or article will probably have some degree of opinion or speculation – the real world is not so neat a package as films or TV present. I try to keep the opinion reasonably identified, although when dealing with coins as in the Guide Book of Peace Dollars a lot of opinion and assumption about appearance or grades, etc. is inevitable. Please, if you have positive suggestions or corrections, let me know so they can be considered for the next edition.

 

You mentioned having a copy of the peace dollar book. If you feel it is misleading or inaccurate, or does not serve your needs, please send it to me at: Roger Burdette c/o Seneca Mill Press LLC, PO Box 1423, Great Falls, VA 22066. I will refund your $5 purchase price.

 

[disme]

Just playing devils advocate here, but since both parties have done a certain amount of research, who's to say that RWB's information is more factually correct than someone elses research-derived information?

 

It would appear that the devil’s advocate in this case still does not understand the

situation. Those individuals publishing numismatic articles of an historical nature,

especially for a subject like the 1964–D Peace dollar, have an obligation to the

readership to obtain the necessary literature, either by purchase or borrowing from

a library, such as that maintained by the ANA. If they find fault with the research

done by others, then that fact should be in the article, with proper explanations and

proof from documented sources, such as Archival material.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jerseycat10]

 

You mentioned having a copy of the peace dollar book. If you feel it is misleading or inaccurate, or does not serve your needs, please send it to me at: Roger Burdette c/o Seneca Mill Press LLC, PO Box 1423, Great Falls, VA 22066. I will refund your $5 purchase price.

 

 

No way, I love the book. I've been overly harsh on you. The book is a great source of info and is invaluable. Sorry I gave you a hard time.

[jerseycat10]

Just playing devils advocate here, but since both parties have done a certain amount of research, who's to say that RWB's information is more factually correct than someone elses research-derived information?

 

It would appear that the devil’s advocate in this case still does not understand the

situation. Those individuals publishing numismatic articles of an historical nature,

especially for a subject like the 1964–D Peace dollar, have an obligation to the

readership to obtain the necessary literature, either by purchase or borrowing from

a library, such as that maintained by the ANA. If they find fault with the research

done by others, then that fact should be in the article, with proper explanations and

proof from documented sources, such as Archival material.

 

 

Touche.

[DaveG]

Roger,

 

I read the article and I don't think it was written to provide factual information, but rather to "wind up the punters", that is, to get the rubes excited about the possibility of finding a 1964-D dollar sometime - sort of like B. Max Mehl's "offers" to buy a 1913 Liberty nickel in the old days (when he knew where all the existing examples were).

[coinman_23885]

Roger,

 

I read the article and I don't think it was written to provide factual information, but rather to "wind up the punters", that is, to get the rubes excited about the possibility of finding a 1964-D dollar sometime - sort of like B. Max Mehl's "offers" to buy a 1913 Liberty nickel in the old days (when he knew where all the existing examples were).

 

Who knows, since Daniel Carr's "fantasy strikes" seem so popular, maybe PCGS will begin to encapsulate and grade those as a substitute.

[RWB]

jerseycat - Actually, I appreciate the questions. They require me to think more clearly about the research and motivations. If the research is good, then it will stand up to scrutiny; otherwise it should fail. That is the heart of the scientific method and objective investigation. Scrutiny implies asking and answering difficult questions – some of which might have no clear answer.

In numismatics, which combines historical and empirical research, we often lack sufficient contemporary documentation to understand fully what, why and how something was done. So we examine the coins and try to work backward to what we hope we have learned from the sources. (An example might help: Casting silver ingots seems very simple – melt the silver, add copper and pour into molds. But what were rarely written down are the dozen steps that occurred to get this done and how they differed at each of the mints….but, that’s what explained in the From Mine to Mint book.)

 

Dave – That might be correct. I don’t know.

 

PS: The PCGS author says he will read the recommended material and make adjustments in the article as necessary. That’s a feather in PCGS’ cap!

 

[e1cnr]

I do not feel this is a research article but rather an information and possibilities article.

 

I have never read any research that ends with ->

 

Do you think any genuine 1964-D Peace dollars exist? We would love to hear your thoughts. Email jhernandez@collectors.com with your opinions

 

 

 

 

By the way, RWB, when doing your research of 1964-D Peace dollars, did you find any information on the 1964 SMS coins that supposedly came from the mint and Eva Adams secret hoard of coins brought home from work?

[RWB]

Agreed…and the information should be correct, regardless of the article’s purpose.

 

RE: SMS. I did not look for anything on the 1964-dated “special mint sets." Also I found nothing in Adams’ personal papers relating to these or any “secret hoard.” Since Adams’ office was in Washington, the only coins she had access to were ones signed out from the mints into HQ custody. That trail exists for the dollars and experimental pieces well into the 1970s. That includes the 1970 Peace dollars struck in .800 silver.

 

[e1cnr]

there were 1970 80% silver PEACE dollars?

[RWB]

Yes....they were struck to test the alloy in anticipation of the Eisenhower dollars. One plan (of several) was to make the Ikes in .800 silver or an .800 outside layer with a Cu core. They ended up with the same clad as the Kennedy halves, but only for the collectors' coins.

 

The die date is not specified in documents, so I suspect they used some leftover 1964 dollar dies.

 

[shirohniichan]

Yes....they were struck to test the alloy in anticipation of the Eisenhower dollars. One plan (of several) was to make the Ikes in .800 silver or an .800 outside layer with a Cu core. They ended up with the same clad as the Kennedy halves, but only for the collectors' coins.

 

The die date is not specified in documents, so I suspect they used some leftover 1964 dollar dies.

 

Dang! I learn something new every day!

[Mokiechan]

Yes....they were struck to test the alloy in anticipation of the Eisenhower dollars. One plan (of several) was to make the Ikes in .800 silver or an .800 outside layer with a Cu core. They ended up with the same clad as the Kennedy halves, but only for the collectors' coins.

 

The die date is not specified in documents, so I suspect they used some leftover 1964 dollar dies.

 

Dang! I learn something new every day!

 

That's for sure, I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and then a little jewel at the end. Wonderful!!!!

 

 

[RWB]

I learn something new almost every time I visit the archives -- and I've looked at uncounted thousands of documents.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Roger,

 

I read the article and I don't think it was written to provide factual information, but rather to "wind up the punters", that is, to get the rubes excited about the possibility of finding a 1964-D dollar sometime - sort of like B. Max Mehl's "offers" to buy a 1913 Liberty nickel in the old days (when he knew where all the existing examples were).

 

Who knows, since Daniel Carr's "fantasy strikes" seem so popular, maybe PCGS will begin to encapsulate and grade those as a substitute.

 

 

You know, that just might work!

 

[Conder101]

At least one of the major TPG's does I believe.