Plus Mark = Higher Value?

[Dordelli]

I picked up this coin today, question I have is how much value does the MS64+ grade add to the value of the coin?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=350539359895&nma=true&rt=nc&si=3NSSK1lRZoEq%252FkCC7ka3gLP2JSI%253D&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

 

[dooly]

dont know but a well nice coin

[physics-fan3.14]

You paid a fair price. The general rule of thumb, and its a really rough rule, is to add 1/3 of the difference to the next highest grade.

[MarkFeld]

You paid a fair price. The general rule of thumb, and its a really rough rule, is to add 1/3 of the difference to the next highest grade.

 

I don't think there is a general rule of thumb, not even a really rough one. Among other things, it depends on the coin type, the grade and the price spread between that grade and the next grade.

 

For example, I have bought some MS64+ Twenty Dollar Liberty gold pieces from large, sharp wholesalers at zero premium over the price of MS64's.

 

On the other hand, I sold a PR67+ 1937 Buffalo Nickel for more than a 100% premium over the price of a PR67 example. And I have paid 50% to 100% premiums for a few MS64 Morgan Dollars that had large price spreads between MS64 and MS65 grades.

[wheat'swheats]

I think the + addition to grades ( along with the *)were attempts by TPG to appear to agree with CAC in that not all of their graded coins were in the A&B coins of the grade, and this was an attempt to tell the collecting market we are trying harder. However, I have sent several * & + coins to CAC and they failed to get the bean. JA said that they (CAC) only went by the number grade and nothing else. All this being said, it all goes back to grade the coin yourself before you buy. If a coin looks exceptional to you, and you like it, it may be worth that extra dollar, if it dosen't,it's for you to decide.

Wheat

That appears to be a really nice 2 center and looks as though it deserves a + or * or CAC which ever one you preferr

[TomB]

I think the + addition to grades ( along with the *)were attempts by TPG to appear to agree with CAC in that not all of their graded coins were in the A&B coins of the grade, and this was an attempt to tell the collecting market we are trying harder. However, I have sent several * & + coins to CAC and they failed to get the bean. JA said that they (CAC) only went by the number grade and nothing else. All this being said, it all goes back to grade the coin yourself before you buy. If a coin looks exceptional to you, and you like it, it may be worth that extra dollar, if it dosen't,it's for you to decide.

Wheat

That appears to be a really nice 2 center and looks as though it deserves a + or * or CAC which ever one you preferr

 

If I recall correctly, NGC offered the * before CAC was in existance.

[coinman1794]

You paid a fair price. The general rule of thumb, and its a really rough rule, is to add 1/3 of the difference to the next highest grade.

 

I don't think there is a general rule of thumb, not even a really rough one. Among other things, it depends on the coin type, the grade and the price spread between that grade and the next grade.

 

For example, I have bought some MS64+ Twenty Dollar Liberty gold pieces from large, sharp wholesalers at zero premium over the price of MS64's.

 

On the other hand, I sold a PR67+ 1937 Buffalo Nickel for more than a 100% premium over the price of a PR67 example. And I have paid 50% to 100% premiums for a few MS64 Morgan Dollars that had large price spreads between MS64 and MS65 grades.

 

Yes, Mark, and on coins like silver Washington quarters, where MS68s are virtually impossible to get, and prohibitively expensive ($5,000-$12,000) when they are found, a PLUS goes a long way toward raising the premiums on otherwise inexpensive MS67s. I have seen $200 MS67s offered for $2500 in MS67+ on some dealers’ sites.

 

Along the lines of what Jason was saying, PCGS gives values for PLUS coins, which I think are based on percentages over the price of the regular grade. These types of calculations tend to be arbitrary.

 

[coinman1794]

I think the + addition to grades ( along with the *)were attempts by TPG to appear to agree with CAC in that not all of their graded coins were in the A&B coins of the grade, and this was an attempt to tell the collecting market we are trying harder. However, I have sent several * & + coins to CAC and they failed to get the bean. JA said that they (CAC) only went by the number grade and nothing else. All this being said, it all goes back to grade the coin yourself before you buy. If a coin looks exceptional to you, and you like it, it may be worth that extra dollar, if it dosen't,it's for you to decide.

Wheat

That appears to be a really nice 2 center and looks as though it deserves a + or * or CAC which ever one you preferr

 

If I recall correctly, NGC offered the * before CAC was in existance.

 

I think NGC introduced the STAR in 2001. However, it has nothing to do with the coin's grade, it stands alone. Rather, it is used to denote coins with exceptional eye appeal and/or exceptional luster characteristics, like PL or Cameo, that are found only on a coin's obverse. It does not mean the coin just missed the next grade, as the new PLUS does; and CAC looks for solid or high-end surfaces combined with strong eye appeal. The STAR is, in effect, an asterisk, begging the viewer to take a look because there is something special about this one.

[Buffalo Head]

I think the + addition to grades ( along with the *)were attempts by TPG to appear to agree with CAC in that not all of their graded coins were in the A&B coins of the grade, and this was an attempt to tell the collecting market we are trying harder. However, I have sent several * & + coins to CAC and they failed to get the bean. JA said that they (CAC) only went by the number grade and nothing else. All this being said, it all goes back to grade the coin yourself before you buy. If a coin looks exceptional to you, and you like it, it may be worth that extra dollar, if it dosen't,it's for you to decide.

Wheat

That appears to be a really nice 2 center and looks as though it deserves a + or * or CAC which ever one you preferr

 

If I recall correctly, NGC offered the * before CAC was in existance.

 

I think NGC introduced the STAR in 2001. However, it has nothing to do with the coin's grade, it stands alone. Rather, it is used to denote coins with exceptional eye appeal and/or exceptional luster characteristics, like PL or Cameo, that are found only on a coin's obverse. It does not mean the coin just missed the next grade, as the new PLUS does; and CAC looks for solid or high-end surfaces combined with strong eye appeal. The STAR is, in effect, an asterisk, begging the viewer to take a look because there is something special about this one.

 

Well said and I agree 100%

[truthteller]

The "plus" is part of marketing. I do not get any premiums on dealer to dealer transactions for the "plus". However, I know the dealer will often add the premium on the retail end. The "plus" is a virtual value; it will not add value to the coin unless someone perceives it as such. After a few years when the populations of pluses start to become large, the value perception will diminish. Of course, the grading services will then introduce the "double star" or "double plus" onto the market.

 

 

TRUTH

[RWB]

Look at the coin, not the label.

[coinman1794]

The "plus" is part of marketing. I do not get any premiums on dealer to dealer transactions for the "plus". However, I know the dealer will often add the premium on the retail end. The "plus" is a virtual value; it will not add value to the coin unless someone perceives it as such. After a few years when the populations of pluses start to become large, the value perception will diminish. Of course, the grading services will then introduce the "double star" or "double plus" onto the market.

 

 

TRUTH

 

At the miniscule rate at which PLUS signs are being given out, it will take a very long time for them to become common. Also, the general marketplace buys the holder before the coin, and anything written on the slab will add to the market value. Discriminating collectors will assess the actual coin to see if it is high-end, and buy accordingly.

[truthteller]

The "plus" is part of marketing. I do not get any premiums on dealer to dealer transactions for the "plus". However, I know the dealer will often add the premium on the retail end. The "plus" is a virtual value; it will not add value to the coin unless someone perceives it as such. After a few years when the populations of pluses start to become large, the value perception will diminish. Of course, the grading services will then introduce the "double star" or "double plus" onto the market.

 

 

TRUTH

 

At the miniscule rate at which PLUS signs are being given out, it will take a very long time for them to become common. Also, the general marketplace buys the holder before the coin, and anything written on the slab will add to the market value. Discriminating collectors will assess the actual coin to see if it is high-end, and buy accordingly.

 

This is the hope of the marketing side of numismatics allowing the seller to ask dramatically higher prices for coins that may or may not be worth the extra value for the "plus". It may be several years before the pluses become less of an influence, all the while, the "plus" coins sitting in the box are becoming less valuable. This scenario holds true from the inception of the TPG grading. Low populations for several years after the TPGs started, then after 5-8 years, the populations became large enough for the buyers to see that their low population coins are no longer so.

 

Unfortunately, I agree with your supposition that the holder determines the value. That is not true coin collecting, but it's marketing at it's finest. Let another entity determine the value of your coin, up or down, instead of the buyer and seller.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[Oldtrader3]

Statistically what drives the "+" designation? Are they surface or strike driven, toning driven or mostly "eye appeal" which may be all or part of the above? Many of my coins predate the "+" designation era as to when the were holdered, so I am asking without much experience with this.

 

I am pretty sure that no one has done a study on these variables to determine distribution by trait nor determined which dependent variable has the most effect on or correlation to this designation. Any insight is appreciated.

[coinman1794]

It seems to be driven largely by eye appeal. Most of the + coins I have seen were only B coins for the grade, and had sometting amazing about them that gave them the "look" of a better grade, upon first inspection. I think about 8 of the roughly 10 Plus coins I have seen fall into this catagory.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Thanks for the reply.